MFI or carbs? Options

[peteinjp]

I’m in the other camp. If you have all the Mfi stuff and your engine configuration is stock and you have someone that can test and set it up properly you’ll never need to touch it. It can sit for extended periods of time without needing to be rebuilt like a carb. But- you need to replace all the old stuff including things like the cold start injectors etc. IF you have some one that can bring it up to “as new” standards it’s the best.

The cold start injection system can by used with a simple push button so that eliminates one electrical component. The microswitch system is not necessary. I have had mine disconnected the only difference is that it saves fuel on deceleration- so that’s another simplification. Then basically you have the thermostat, altitude compensator (an advantage over carbs) and those are both mechanical systems which are very well documented online.

So- if you have the right person to set it up- someone that has done it many times and you can afford the initial cost of pump rebuilds etc go for the better system.

Pete

[ClayPerrine]

I’m in the same camp today,,, until I learn more.
At the end of the day, what can realistically go wrong with carbs?
Not much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP1PPjOJLgY


Dead stock carbs. Well maintained. Driven regularly.

Stuck float. Hydrolocked. Face full of gas.



I am considering these for Elwood. https://store.jenvey.co.uk/throttle-body-ki...ottle-body-42mm

Hide everything under the air cleaner. It would look stock and run way better. And it will be fully reversible and I will keep the stock carbs and fuel pump in case the next owner wants to go back to them.

[Superhawk996]

Dead stock carbs. Well maintained. Driven regularly.

Stuck float. Hydrolocked. Face full of gas.

Though unfortunate - it was fixed with no special tools, no EFI expertise with a cobbled aftermarket EFI, or parts that could be hard to obtain in a pinch.

Sort of makes the case why carbs might be a good option for the OP’s purpose. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I’ve got a carb sitting outside on a 1948 Case tractor. 75 years old and still working. Starts in below zero weather with nothing more than a pull of the hand choke.

Again, I love EFI . . . But carbs have been around for more than 100 years and they work without ECU’s, laptops to tune or diagnose, or external electronic sensing that can bring other failure modes.

Let’s not forget that on a modern car, a failed crank sensor leaves you walking with no hope of a roadside fix. Does it happen? Not often… but it does happen. I’ve seen the warranty data at two different OEMs so I know that it happens, and how unhappy customers are when it happens. There is no denying that EFI occasionally fails, just as there is no denying that your carb float stuck.

It’s about about tradeoffs that only the OP can make. Hopefully, the varied points of view and the lively debate are appreciated.

[NARP74]

For the Jenvey carbs, is that price per, or for a pair? Ouch, that is pricey and I may have to upgrade my original estimate on price, a lot. Add a controller and all the other bits and bobs you need, it becomes very expensive. I do understand the allure of EFI though, especially after a face full of petrol.

[ClayPerrine]

There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of carbs. I actually fixed the float on the six with some "percussive maintenance" using a rubber mallet.

In Europe, like it is here in the states, carbs are obsolete. So the availability of parts is limited. However the only specialty part on any aftermarket EFI system would be the ECU. Aftermarket EFI uses sensors and actuators from current production cars. So I would argue that the availability of parts for EFI is better than carbs. And with a notebook computer or even a phone you can access the system and it will, for the most part, tell you what failed.

So I think your argument about parts being "hard to obtain in a pinch" is not true. I can walk into a FLAPS, and get a replacement for a failed injector, a TPS or a MAP sensor, because they are all sourced from production cars. All that is needed is a record of the part numbers for the sensors and actuators installed on the car.

Another advantage to EFI is that professional help with anything on the system is only a Webex meeting away. In today's connected world, the guy that built your EFI system can remote into your computer/phone and help to fix any issues with the EFI. Having an expert available to help, even remotely, is invaluable.

[ClayPerrine]

For the Jenvey carbs, is that price per, or for a pair? Ouch, that is pricey and I may have to upgrade my original estimate on price, a lot. Add a controller and all the other bits and bobs you need, it becomes very expensive. I do understand the allure of EFI though, especially after a face full of petrol.

The Jenvy throttle bodies are designed to look like carbs. Most throttle bodies are way cheaper, but they don't look like carbs.

PMO throttle bodies are blatantly throttle bodies and do nothing to hide it. They are probably better throttle bodies than the Jenvey ones. What you are paying for with the Jenvey ones is the stealth factor.

[bossboy302]

O P here-first, thank you all for contributing great thoughts, experience, and opinions...

Second, hope thread doesn't end here-this a worthy discussion for sure...

Yes, intended use is Europe, hope car provides us with (trouble free-ish) use. Destination travel, a few tours and rallies. Plan to be semi-perm residents for 3 to 5 years, sell car there when done. Not too fussy about originality on this one...

To the car:

I found a very complete 2.2E with all the auxiliaries. I like it, looks cool, CAN work well. I was thinking there might be quite a few experienced MFI techs in Europe, what with diesel trucks and Mercedes....but those days may be far astern...

Webers are cool. Had a few '67S cars that never let me down (one was a daily driver when younger). Most experience with these.

The new EFI setups look/perform well and seem reliable. The newer tech may be less familiar to some for a while. Maybe the most set and forget option.

If someone had gun to my head this morning-Weber or PMO...for the moment

I look forward to more discussion...

Brian

[Superhawk996]

Another advantage to EFI is that professional help with anything on the system is only a Webex meeting away. In today's connected world, the guy that built your EFI system can remote into your computer/phone and help to fix any issues with the EFI. Having an expert available to help, even remotely, is invaluable.

I don’t know what languages the OP speaks or where he will travel. Having lived in a small town in Southern Italy for a couple years and not being fluent in Italian, I can only say that it won’t be quite that simple.

[ClayPerrine]

Another advantage to EFI is that professional help with anything on the system is only a Webex meeting away. In today's connected world, the guy that built your EFI system can remote into your computer/phone and help to fix any issues with the EFI. Having an expert available to help, even remotely, is invaluable.

I don’t know what languages the OP speaks or where he will travel. Having lived in a small town in Southern Italy for a couple years and not being fluent in Italian, I can only say that it won’t be quite that simple.

Ah, but that is the beauty of an interconnected world. You don't need someone local to you to help with the troubleshooting. You can get on a Webex/Zoom meeting with the guy in the US that installed and tuned the EFI system. He can remote in and help you with the troubleshooting. Then using Google translate, you can type in your parts needs in English, and be able to show them the Italian translation to get the correct parts.

From experience in Paris, communications is always an issue. But the internet is becoming the universal translator that Star Trek showed us.

[Superhawk996]

Another advantage to EFI is that professional help with anything on the system is only a Webex meeting away. In today's connected world, the guy that built your EFI system can remote into your computer/phone and help to fix any issues with the EFI. Having an expert available to help, even remotely, is invaluable.

I don’t know what languages the OP speaks or where he will travel. Having lived in a small town in Southern Italy for a couple years and not being fluent in Italian, I can only say that it won’t be quite that simple.

Ah, but that is the beauty of an interconnected world. You don't need someone local to you to help with the troubleshooting. You can get on a Webex/Zoom meeting with the guy in the US that installed and tuned the EFI system. He can remote in and help you with the troubleshooting. Then using Google translate, you can type in your parts needs in English, and be able to show them the Italian translation to get the correct parts.

Then there’s the real world. 6-8 hour time zone difference (Europe is ahead of US). Hope that OP only needs help during US business hours.

Then there is the issue of getting parts at a small town autoricambi. If you can get anything quicker than domani or dopodomani more power to ya’.

With carbs - more often than not - all the parts are right there - just need to clean a jet or maybe percussive maintenance (I love that! ) and you’re back on the road same day.

We (Americans) tend to think that we are the center of the universe but in reality, the rest of the world just goes on its merry way and has its own cultural nuances. There isn’t a NAPA in every small European town. Their definition of ASAP often differs from what we are used to.

[r_towle]

Another advantage to EFI is that professional help with anything on the system is only a Webex meeting away. In today's connected world, the guy that built your EFI system can remote into your computer/phone and help to fix any issues with the EFI. Having an expert available to help, even remotely, is invaluable.

I don’t know what languages the OP speaks or where he will travel. Having lived in a small town in Southern Italy for a couple years and not being fluent in Italian, I can only say that it won’t be quite that simple.

Ah, but that is the beauty of an interconnected world. You don't need someone local to you to help with the troubleshooting. You can get on a Webex/Zoom meeting with the guy in the US that installed and tuned the EFI system. He can remote in and help you with the troubleshooting. Then using Google translate, you can type in your parts needs in English, and be able to show them the Italian translation to get the correct parts.

Then there’s the real world. 6-8 hour time zone difference (Europe is ahead of US). Hope that OP only needs help during US business hours.

Then there is the issue of getting parts at a small town autoricambi. If you can get anything quicker than domani or dopodomani more power to ya’.

With carbs - more often than not - all the parts are right there - just need to clean a jet or maybe percussive maintenance (I love that! ) and you’re back on the road same day.

We (Americans) tend to think that we are the center of the universe but in reality, the rest of the world just goes on its merry way and has its own cultural nuances. There isn’t a NAPA in every small European town. Their definition of ASAP often differs from what we are used to.

Agreed, but there is more wine involved while waiting...so its not really a bad thing.

I will say, I learned on new term here.
Percussive Maintenance...classic.
Rich

[ClayPerrine]

I will say, I learned on new term here.
Percussive Maintenance...classic.
Rich

That term comes from my IT background. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

if the mfi is matched (T E and S are all different) and it is rebuilt, there is no comparison between it and carbs, and the mfi exhaust note is superb. However mfi is now old and with 4% CO and bit polluting. PMO carbs are new and as good as it gets for six cylinder Porsche carburation

[ClayPerrine]

Another thing to consider is the location where the car will be registered. I am not 100% sure, but I think an MOT in the UK requires that all the emissions components are functioning. The rest of the EU is probably the same, as they have some strict emissions laws.

I don't know which side that will come down on, but if this is a conversion from a four with fuel injection, it may not be legal to run carbs on it.

France: https://www.france.fr/en/holiday-prep/crit-...vehicle-sticker

Germany: https://www.germanemissionssticker.com/

UK: https://www.gov.uk/emissions-testing


I would suggest doing some detailed research on this before making a decision on which fuel system to use.

[bossboy302]

Great point!
So with permission, I'll start a new thread on relocating/registering a older US car in the EU. I have already been in contact with several members here who are contemplating a similar car shipment. I have some done some research and it could stir up some more...

[r_towle]

Somewhere here is an old thread of a couple who shipped a 911 to Europe and toured for quite a while.
He did all sorts of research on registration and insurance.

Rivh

[Superhawk996]

Register stateside and get an EU Carnet to bring into Europe temporarily assuming it will return. There are companies that can assist. Used to have them done for EU development and test trips.

If not returning stateside after the tour I have no idea of the implications.

[roundtwo]

@ClayPerrine
@bossboy320
Good point about emissions standards in the EU especially if planning extended stays.


What about altitude? Many major mountain passes and routes at fairly high elevations that you don't want to miss. Cold start at 8-9k feet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) Always nerve racking to drive when carbs aren't running their best.

If fuel cost a factor, FI more efficient too.

As I'm just getting to the engine running, break in stage and pmo tuning, I'm already seriously considering the next step to modern FI. It's a pretty compelling option considering all the advantages. Not as cool looking but...super drivable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[peteinjp]

@ClayPerrine

What about altitude? Many major mountain passes and routes at fairly high elevations that you don't want to miss. Cold start at 8-9k feet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) Always nerve racking to drive when carbs aren't running their best.

If fuel cost a factor, FI more efficient too.

MFI has altitude adjustment...

Just sayin.
Pete

[930cabman]

@ClayPerrine
@bossboy320
Good point about emissions standards in the EU especially if planning extended stays.


What about altitude? Many major mountain passes and routes at fairly high elevations that you don't want to miss. Cold start at 8-9k feet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) Always nerve racking to drive when carbs aren't running their best.

If fuel cost a factor, FI more efficient too.

As I'm just getting to the engine running, break in stage and pmo tuning, I'm already seriously considering the next step to modern FI. It's a pretty compelling option considering all the advantages. Not as cool looking but...super drivable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Several pluses here, including sweet and reasonably simple to work on