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> Settled - Side Valences are affixed with plastic button head rivets, 'Rocker panel' rivets
JeffBowlsby
post Mar 11 2023, 01:15 PM
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We know of two docmented original 914s, both have side valances attached with plastic buttonhead rivets, not aluminum rivets.

Black rivets for cars with black valances
Clear rivets for the 1974 LE cars with the yellow or orange valances

PET also only lists the plastic button head rivets.

All the photos of 914s with aluminum rivets are not original, are commonly available and have been replaced at some point.

Thanks to George Hussey, Steve Gaglione (2nd owner of very orignal Sahara Beige) and Alberto Favilla (original owner) and to Rich Daunhauer (914Werke) for their knowledge.


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StarBear
post Mar 11 2023, 02:19 PM
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Yay! Thanks, Jeff! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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KELTY360
post Mar 11 2023, 02:42 PM
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That seems premature and arbitrary to make an absolute statement like that. I’m not looking to be argumentative, but the sample size seems small and leaves no room for the variances that have been observed. Have you surveyed the production numbers to see if there are any groupings with the ‘non original’ rivets or is it just random? Is the PET contemporaneous with the models in question, or is it a recent publication?

It would seem appropriate to survey the members of this group to see if there are any consistent variances. I’m not an expert on 914 originality but I’ve been active in the old car community for over 35 years and have observed many instances of settled pronouncements that have been disproved. I’m not saying you’re wrong; but I’m concerned about the process in light of contrary evidence.

Disclaimer: I own a low mileage ‘74 2.0 LE with a preponderance of original features that has the ‘non-original’ aluminum rivets.
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914werke
post Mar 11 2023, 03:14 PM
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flyer86d
post Mar 11 2023, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE(JeffBowlsby @ Mar 11 2023, 02:15 PM) *

We know of two docmented original 914s, both have side valances attached with plastic buttonhead rivets, not aluminum rivets.

Black rivets for cars with black valances
Clear rivets for the 1974 LE cars with the yellow or orange valances

PET also only lists the plastic button head rivets.

All the photos of 914s with aluminum rivets are not original, are commonly available and have been replaced at some point.

Thanks to George Hussey, Steve Gaglione (2nd owner of very orignal Sahara Beige) and Alberto Favilla (original owner) and to Rich Daunhauer (914Werke) for their knowledge.

Our 71 which we bought in 1973 had clear (white) plastic rivets holding the scuff panels and rockers.

Charlie
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DaveB
post Mar 11 2023, 04:51 PM
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The Group 8 Shop Manual calls them out as plastic expanding rivets, so I didn't realize there was a debate. My 75 had aluminum rivets but it's such a Frankenstein, I was surprised they didn't use machine screws.

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technicalninja
post Mar 11 2023, 04:59 PM
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My 75 1.8 32k car had black plastic rivets on all positions.
I thought they had been replaced because I didn't think Porsche was that cheap!
I was wrong...

Black plastic on mine and I believe I'm the first guy to actually do any wrenching on my car.

I'm positive I'm the first person to remove the rear taillights housings as well.
All the hardware was there and in perfect shape: cad plating still perfect.
Only a single scratch on the electronic spade connectors.

It's nice to take apart a 48-year-old car and find no molestation at all.

It's never happened to me before. Everything older than 30 is usually super molested.
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fixer34
post Mar 11 2023, 05:06 PM
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And into the fray we go...

1970 factory -6, silver scuff panels and black valences. Black plastic 'expanding' rivets on both.
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scallyk9
post Mar 11 2023, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE(KELTY360 @ Mar 11 2023, 12:42 PM) *

That seems premature and arbitrary to make an absolute statement like that. I’m not looking to be argumentative, but the sample size seems small and leaves no room for the variances that have been observed. Have you surveyed the production numbers to see if there are any groupings with the ‘non original’ rivets or is it just random? Is the PET contemporaneous with the models in question, or is it a recent publication?

It would seem appropriate to survey the members of this group to see if there are any consistent variances. I’m not an expert on 914 originality but I’ve been active in the old car community for over 35 years and have observed many instances of settled pronouncements that have been disproved. I’m not saying you’re wrong; but I’m concerned about the process in light of contrary evidence.

Disclaimer: I own a low mileage ‘74 2.0 LE with a preponderance of original features that has the ‘non-original’ aluminum rivets.


Agreed. My experience is based on two 1974 914s; produced Nov. 1973 and the LE during March 1974. The LE had been unrestored and according to Mark at Eurotech Bodywerkes, the yellow rocker covers or panels had not been previously removed. The six rivets along the upper edge were aluminum.

As for the PET, my copy, illustration number 801-20 calls the side rocker cover/valances as part number 10 "sill cover" and the Part #11 (999 591 550 14) as "expansion rivet" with the correct number of 12 as "QTY" and no mention as to whether it is made of plastic or aluminum and white with corrosion.

My copy of the PET shows the "scuff plate" (which I might call a threshold plate) on illustration 807-00 and calls out both aluminum and plastic scuff plates dependent on before or after VIN 47329 18919. It only lists one fastener as illustration #30 (Part #999 551 237 11) with no mention as to aluminum or plastic, black or clear.

Those "expansion rivet" part numbers are different but the descriptions of each are lacking as I often find using the PET. In summary, other than the word "expansion" possibly indicating the type of rivet, the PET is inconclusive in solving the controversary.

But...in Volume 8, Body, of my full printed Workshop Manual set, we may have an answer. On page 2.1-3/1 "Removing and Installing Side Member Rocker Panel", instruction #2 for removing says "Remove six plastic expanding rivets" and instruction #3 for installing says "Fasten panelling additionally with six plastic expanding rivets".

Personally, I didn't trust the clear and plastic rivets available for the plastic sill covers to attach steel to steel so I used aluminum rivets.

If any concours judges are reading this, please forget my last statement.
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wonkipop
post Mar 11 2023, 05:26 PM
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yes - plenty of examples of 75 in my L jet files with the black rivets on the rockers.
can't argue with that i think when it comes to those.

also fairly common thing early on with 914s to get those rockers off and clean behind and check for rust. this was a well recited tip that was almost "law" back in 89 when i bought my 74. so i took my rockers off and cleaned behind there and checked back then. i reckon a lot of cars would have likely been treated to that a long time ago as well.

its too long ago for me to remember what was there, but i would not argue with the proposition the rivets would have been black plastic, pretty much the same as the threshold rivets which are still there and are black.

interesting that so many 75s are still intact, and nothing on file i have for 74s are black.
all alum. but thats not proof of anything.

thanks mr. b (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

EDIT
i know @dr914@autoatlanta.com has a low miles very original white 74 1.8 in his collection, so that would be a trustworthy example if its got the black rivets.
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wonkipop
post Mar 11 2023, 06:11 PM
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@JeffBowlsby

i just realised one of the examples you pointed to as an original car is steve g's 2.0

interestingly those are not original sill rivets.
he restored it to what he was told was original.

and here is what he had to say about it.
its interesting.
its in the thread on the car in originality section.

now i'm not saying steve g is right.
or that the sills had not been removed on his car before he got it.
or that it was not a highly original car.
or that he was mistaken about his memory of his car he bought new.
but the rivets are not original by his own admission.
and its on dr. 914s authority he changed them.

and dr 914 knows heaps for sure.
but he is not always 100% correct.
for instance the business about the vacuum hoses tucked under the plenum of 74 1.8s
dr 914 says all 1.8s after jan 74.
not true as we discovered.
nothing to do with a production change.
instead it was to do with 49 state cars v californian cars.

i've got an open mind - not going one way or another.
but i want to see more evidence.

re the creamsicle rockers.
how do we know those rockers have never been off.
with so many myths about what is correct on a 914, those rockers could have been taken off and replaced with the clear rivets of the earlier cars based on an authority view?
just being an open minded sceptic at this stage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

but i would like to know. for sure. what is meant to be there.


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StarBear
post Mar 11 2023, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE(technicalninja @ Mar 11 2023, 05:59 PM) *

Everything older than 30 is usually super molested.

That's what she said....
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wonkipop
post Mar 11 2023, 08:12 PM
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i hate to throw another worm in the can of doubt when it comes to 74s and rivets.


but.

from low miles orig condition 74 1.8 held by dr. 914 in his collection.
fab photo documentation from your website @JeffBowlsby (your photos mr. b?).

alum rivets looks to me?
could be a trick of the light. dr 914 could confirm?

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i concede this one could have had its rocker panels off too.
(they all could?).
which means it ain't so original a yardstick as its said to be.

i'm going to say its just not certain yet on 74s.

i reckon they are black plastic rivets on 75s for sure.
so many i have collected for data on L jets have the black rivets thats got to be the case.
but these alum rivets keep showing up on 74s.
even steve g's extraordinary 74 2.0 had them until he "restored" the sill rivets.
dunno.
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rgalla9146
post Mar 11 2023, 08:26 PM
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Late cars with black plastic thresholds had black plastic expanding rivets.
The same black rivets were used on black rocker covers.
Early cars with aluminum thresholds had off-white plastic expanding rivets.
All early cars had the same off-white plastic expanding rivet on the black rockers.
Clear plastic expanding rivets were never original on a 914 .....but they may have
been supplied later by Porsche as a repair part.
Aluminum rivets were never original on a 914
Back in the old days original rocker rivets could be removed and re-installed if done
with care.
If the rivet was not brittle the center pin can be pushed through and retreived
from below. The rivet could then be lifted out of the panel and later re-installed.
If this method was used on the rivets near the inner door seal the pin of the rivet
would be lost inside the longitudinal.
Way in the past I retrieved many from parts cars and reused them.
No correct replacements for early cars were available in those days.
LE rockers ?
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wonkipop
post Mar 11 2023, 08:36 PM
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another remarkable 74 from mr. b's website.
not a restored car i believe.
(but doesn't mean the rockers haven't been off.)
hard to really decide if white plastic or alum rivet from lighting in photo.
look alum like lots of other 74s.

i am not saying earlier cars did not have white plastic.
or that later 75 and on did not have black plastic.
but it would appear something else might/could have been happening in 74 at least.
had to say yet.

i wish i had photographed mine 30+ years ago before i took them off.
ha.

????

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Van B
post Mar 11 2023, 08:39 PM
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Mine is definitely as Jeff described in the original post, 100% accurate. Plastic buttons on the threshold and black rivets on the rockers.
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wonkipop
post Mar 11 2023, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE(Van B @ Mar 11 2023, 08:39 PM) *

Mine is definitely as Jeff described in the original post, 100% accurate. Plastic buttons on the threshold and black rivets on the rockers.


ah.

that probably settles it.

do you reckon the rocker panels had ever been off before.

it kind of looks like the ones on dr 914s 1.8 could be black.
being plastic they catch just enough of the light to be reflective.

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Van B
post Mar 12 2023, 09:33 AM
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Mine are without a doubt original and I was the first person to ever take the outer threshold piece off. Both pieces are plastic.

I know it’s not correct for my year, but I really like the anodized aluminum versions and I’m considering going that route if @Mikey914 would sell me black inner trim with an outer silver anodized threshold. Like a mix and match special:)
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Mikey914
post Mar 12 2023, 10:30 AM
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I usually have these made up in matching sets, but let me check and see on Monday.
-Mark
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914werke
post Mar 12 2023, 11:27 AM
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I know this is a complete CW thing, & wasn't my intention to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)
But I recall restoring my car & going down this rabbit hole.
The bad thing about the alum. pop rivets is they actually enlarge the fastening holes over time via rust from galvanic corrosion.
I had to weld & re-drill several so I could use/fit the correct fasteners.
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