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> What went wrong?, it was running great and then not at all
Type 47
post Mar 15 2023, 03:59 PM
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so we put the original 62k engine back in that had not had the distributor removed. Adjusted the valves (again after we put about 10 miles on it) we rebuilt the Webbers and it fired up. We did some timing and tweaking on the carbs.

It ran OK but a little shy of perfect. I replaced the wires and it seemed to improve it but idled a little high around 1,200.

My son came over to work on it the next day, but I wasn't home. All of a sudden, it won't even run.

we swapped distributers (both 009's) with the parts car, then swapped points (adjusted to 0.016). no improvement.

tested spark to all four cylinders. I seems like it's really out of timing but we didn't change it much. (except for the fact that we took the distributor out)

my son says we have spark, too much fuel, and not enough air.

What do we do next?????

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nditiz1
post Mar 19 2023, 06:14 PM
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This seems like a very drastic approach. I don't doubt your son is ASE certified, but I don't like the methodology here.

Facts:
Engine ran - not super, but good enough. You had adjusted the valves and rebuilt the carbs prior.

Was timing correct? Unknown, but good enough to run.

At that time you had Spark, Fuel, Compression.

You replaced aged plug wires - Ran better, but idle wanted to be at 1200. At this point it still ran.

Something happened between when you were not home and the next time you tried to start. Could be a number of things, but you said your son was there. Did he touch something?

Then, you started the shotgun approach to getting it running again. Messed with timing because you put a different distro in. Adjusted points. Possibly some other items. Then you swapped things back to when you first had the problem.

Spark - It was mentioned you have spark. How good did the spark look? Someone commented on a weak spark will show, but may not be enough to get the engine running. The coil should be checked with an Ohm meter to be sure. The wires that are on it now had it running so no continuity issues exist with this new set. Battery is enough to turn the engine over so it should be enough to start unless that sounds week.
Items to do -
Ensure static timing is set
Ensure points gap is correct (.016 if I remember correctly)
Retest the spark is strong

Fuel - This one is easy. You don't even need to have the FP working. If when the throttle is pressed do all 4 jets shoot fuel down the throats, if yes then the system has fuel. The bowls have fuel. As long as before you start you have this then the engine will at least run. This would also mean the issue was not from fuel or fuel delivery as the bowls did not go dry which means the pump is pumping fuel AND you have fuel in the tank

Compression - I think you said this was good. The engine ran so I assume at least enough to have it idle.

This setup is far simpler than FI. Less items to have to check and diagnose. Delving into the spark/timing is where I think you should focus and spend time. Sure could you have plugged idle jets, yes, but it will still run. Throw those carbs back on and get that Spark worked out, just my opinion.

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Type 47
post Mar 20 2023, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE(nditiz1 @ Mar 19 2023, 04:14 PM) *

This seems like a very drastic approach. I don't doubt your son is ASE certified, but I don't like the methodology here.

Facts:
Engine ran - not super, but good enough. You had adjusted the valves and rebuilt the carbs prior.

Was timing correct? Unknown, but good enough to run.

At that time you had Spark, Fuel, Compression.

You replaced aged plug wires - Ran better, but idle wanted to be at 1200. At this point it still ran.

Something happened between when you were not home and the next time you tried to start. Could be a number of things, but you said your son was there. Did he touch something?

Then, you started the shotgun approach to getting it running again. Messed with timing because you put a different distro in. Adjusted points. Possibly some other items. Then you swapped things back to when you first had the problem.

Spark - It was mentioned you have spark. How good did the spark look? Someone commented on a weak spark will show, but may not be enough to get the engine running. The coil should be checked with an Ohm meter to be sure. The wires that are on it now had it running so no continuity issues exist with this new set. Battery is enough to turn the engine over so it should be enough to start unless that sounds week.
Items to do -
Ensure static timing is set
Ensure points gap is correct (.016 if I remember correctly)
Retest the spark is strong

Fuel - This one is easy. You don't even need to have the FP working. If when the throttle is pressed do all 4 jets shoot fuel down the throats, if yes then the system has fuel. The bowls have fuel. As long as before you start you have this then the engine will at least run. This would also mean the issue was not from fuel or fuel delivery as the bowls did not go dry which means the pump is pumping fuel AND you have fuel in the tank

Compression - I think you said this was good. The engine ran so I assume at least enough to have it idle.

This setup is far simpler than FI. Less items to have to check and diagnose. Delving into the spark/timing is where I think you should focus and spend time. Sure could you have plugged idle jets, yes, but it will still run. Throw those carbs back on and get that Spark worked out, just my opinion.


Son #2 who has done 90% of the work on the car in the last 24 weeks is an ASE mechanic. Problem is they must not spend a lot of course time teaching carbs & tuning on 50 year old cars. He is relying on his basic knowledge of how stuff works.

I don't know what happened when I put the plug wires on an it ran well and then next day I'm gone and shoot from the hip son #2 does something.

We WILL get this resolved today.

with all of the great info everyone has posted we will get it straightened out.

Even though to wires are not buttoned up in the clips, I agree something doesn't look right.

as soon as he gets done at the DMV we will get started again.

BTW: Son #1 lives too far away to help. He is a Gold Meister level factory trained Porsche technician and can take apart a 992 (and put it back together) but is like "what's a carburetor?" He did help me take apart the 914 10 years ago though.
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Superhawk996
post Mar 20 2023, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE(Type 47 @ Mar 20 2023, 01:48 PM) *

. . . is like "what's a carburetor?"

Not a dig at your sons.

That statement just about sums up the state of the automotive repair world lately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Failing to teach the basics and focused on OBD codes and swapping parts at random. I see it all the time with friends and family when they attempt to get service.

Lest anyone think I’m picking on mechanics, it’s as bad or worse in the engineering. Lots of book knowledge but can’t tell you how many young engineers I’ve worked with have no clue about how stuff actually works, is manufactured, or can use the generic engineering principles to solve specific problems.
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Posts in this topic
Type 47   What went wrong?   Mar 15 2023, 03:59 PM
Superhawk996   we swapped distributers (both 009's) with t...   Mar 15 2023, 04:15 PM
Root_Werks   we swapped distributers (both 009's) with ...   Mar 15 2023, 04:20 PM
Type 47   [quote name='Superhawk996' post='3065291' date='M...   Mar 15 2023, 04:28 PM
Superhawk996   So, if distributor, points were working properl...   Mar 15 2023, 04:36 PM
Type 47   we swapped distributers (both 009's) with ...   Mar 15 2023, 04:21 PM
Superhawk996   Using the parts shotgun approach to troubleshoot h...   Mar 15 2023, 04:33 PM
Type 47   Do you see the accelerator pump shooting fuel? ...   Mar 15 2023, 05:54 PM
930cabman   Is there compression?   Mar 15 2023, 04:38 PM
Superhawk996   Is there compression? :D I ASSUMED . . . Good...   Mar 15 2023, 04:41 PM
nditiz1   I would put the old distro back in and make sure t...   Mar 15 2023, 05:02 PM
Superhawk996   I would put the old distro back in and make sure ...   Mar 15 2023, 05:17 PM
Type 47   I would put the old distro back in and make sure ...   Mar 15 2023, 05:56 PM
930cabman   Is a cam lobe wiped out? Known history is inconclu...   Mar 15 2023, 05:02 PM
Aerostatwv   Sounds like a bad condenser to me.   Mar 15 2023, 05:21 PM
Superhawk996   Sounds like a bad condenser to me. If it’s spa...   Mar 15 2023, 05:32 PM
Rand   Sounds like a bad condenser to me. I'd be in...   Mar 21 2023, 07:04 PM
nditiz1   If the swapped in distro is a known working entity...   Mar 15 2023, 05:54 PM
Type 47   If the swapped in distro is a known working entit...   Mar 15 2023, 05:57 PM
Superhawk996   If the swapped in distro is a known working enti...   Mar 15 2023, 06:12 PM
Type 47   [quote name='Type 47' post='3065346' date='Mar 15...   Mar 15 2023, 09:49 PM
bossboy302   Verify actual TDC but popping off 1/2 valve cover...   Mar 15 2023, 06:50 PM
Type 47   Verify actual TDC but popping off 1/2 valve cove...   Mar 15 2023, 09:47 PM
ChrisFoley   thanks, we understand. Can't tell you how m...   Mar 20 2023, 04:18 AM
bossboy302   thanks, we understand. Can't tell you how ...   Mar 20 2023, 12:07 PM
Gatornapper   Best thing I've ever seen on setting static ti...   Mar 15 2023, 07:27 PM
Superhawk996   What is the static timing set at? Should be about...   Mar 15 2023, 10:22 PM
Dustin914   What is the static timing set at? Should be abou...   Mar 20 2023, 04:54 PM
brant   no one mentioned the 009 it won't be your lac...   Mar 16 2023, 10:58 AM
Root_Werks   Make sure to post the solution when you do figure ...   Mar 17 2023, 02:11 PM
Type 47   Make sure to post the solution when you do figure...   Mar 18 2023, 07:03 PM
ChrisFoley   not sure why plug wire #1 is so tight? Switch...   Mar 19 2023, 03:27 AM
930cabman   [quote name='Root_Werks' post='3065796' date='Mar...   Mar 19 2023, 05:46 AM
Type 47   [quote name='Root_Werks' post='3065796' date='Ma...   Mar 19 2023, 04:22 PM
lolkema   I would start by making 100% sure the distributor ...   Mar 18 2023, 06:17 PM
second wind   I have to share....my '73 2.0 had "spark...   Mar 19 2023, 01:26 AM
nditiz1   This seems like a very drastic approach. I don...   Mar 19 2023, 06:14 PM
Type 47   This seems like a very drastic approach. I don...   Mar 20 2023, 12:48 PM
Superhawk996   . . . is like "what's a carburetor?...   Mar 20 2023, 12:59 PM
Dave_Darling   That distributor does not look to be in the right ...   Mar 19 2023, 07:51 PM
bobboinski   Distributor cap looks to be wired wrong. Or maybe ...   Mar 19 2023, 09:02 PM
VaccaRabite   Your dizzy is all sorts of awkward in that picture...   Mar 19 2023, 09:13 PM
930cabman   Back in the day it was difficult to find (and keep...   Mar 20 2023, 04:30 PM
ChrisFoley   with a timing light while the engine is running.   Mar 20 2023, 06:35 PM
Superhawk996   with a timing light while the engine is running. ...   Mar 20 2023, 07:24 PM
Type 47   with a timing light while the engine is running. ...   Mar 20 2023, 08:23 PM
Superhawk996   with a timing light while the engine is running....   Mar 20 2023, 08:29 PM
Superhawk996   Now that the carbs have been removed - you’re go...   Mar 20 2023, 08:35 PM
Type 47   Now that the carbs have been removed - you’re g...   Mar 20 2023, 09:18 PM
Type 47   Could a valve be stuck and causing chaos? then no...   Mar 20 2023, 09:40 PM
Superhawk996   Could a valve be stuck and causing chaos? then n...   Mar 20 2023, 09:55 PM
Dave_Darling   Distributor. Check that distributor. Do not f**k...   Mar 20 2023, 09:58 PM
Superhawk996   Distributor. Check that distributor. Do not f**...   Mar 20 2023, 10:04 PM
Type 47   Distributor. Check that distributor. Do not f**...   Mar 21 2023, 09:15 AM
Superhawk996   Sorry - not trying to over simplify However tuni...   Mar 20 2023, 10:02 PM
Type 47   Sorry - not trying to over simplify However tun...   Mar 21 2023, 09:26 AM
brant   Taking the carbs off will effect the linkage Havi...   Mar 21 2023, 07:48 AM
Type 47   Taking the carbs off will effect the linkage Hav...   Mar 21 2023, 09:16 AM
brant   Taking the carbs off will effect the linkage Ha...   Mar 21 2023, 09:58 AM
nditiz1   If the car pops stutters backfires at IDLE here ar...   Mar 21 2023, 09:29 AM
Type 47   Idle circuit is dirty - are the carbs clean? Ha...   Mar 21 2023, 02:56 PM
technicalninja   with a timing light while the engine is running....   Mar 21 2023, 10:12 AM
technicalninja   Timing could be off, but I believe you ran it u...   Mar 21 2023, 10:17 AM
nditiz1   Yes please retract your post :D Just so we are c...   Mar 21 2023, 10:18 AM
technicalninja   Yep, I'm sorry I may have added to the confusi...   Mar 21 2023, 10:39 AM
Superhawk996   How did Porsche expect technicians to be able to ...   Mar 21 2023, 11:16 AM
Type 47   [quote name='technicalninja' post='3066759' date=...   Mar 21 2023, 02:11 PM
ClayPerrine   Just so you know, the 009 is a terrible distributo...   Mar 21 2023, 10:48 AM
Type 47   Just so you know, the 009 is a terrible distribut...   Mar 21 2023, 03:00 PM
nditiz1   009 should have no problem getting to the base. I...   Mar 21 2023, 11:28 AM
technicalninja   [quote name='technicalninja' post='3066759' date=...   Mar 21 2023, 12:08 PM
cgnj   Hi, You never said what fixed your no start proble...   Mar 21 2023, 01:29 PM
Type 47   Hi, You never said what fixed your no start probl...   Mar 21 2023, 01:53 PM
technicalninja   Just looked at the link provided for syncing carbs...   Mar 21 2023, 02:26 PM
nditiz1   There are definitely different levels of cleaning....   Mar 21 2023, 06:37 PM
Type 47   There are definitely different levels of cleaning...   Mar 21 2023, 08:13 PM
ChrisFoley   That red line on your impeller is the 27 degree ma...   Mar 22 2023, 05:23 AM
bossboy302   TYPE 47: you never have explained how you got from...   Mar 22 2023, 11:40 AM
Type 47   TYPE 47: you never have explained how you got fro...   Mar 22 2023, 02:48 PM


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