so we put the original 62k engine back in that had not had the distributor removed. Adjusted the valves (again after we put about 10 miles on it) we rebuilt the Webbers and it fired up. We did some timing and tweaking on the carbs.

It ran OK but a little shy of perfect. I replaced the wires and it seemed to improve it but idled a little high around 1,200.

My son came over to work on it the next day, but I wasn't home. All of a sudden, it won't even run.

we swapped distributers (both 009's) with the parts car, then swapped points (adjusted to 0.016). no improvement.

tested spark to all four cylinders. I seems like it's really out of timing but we didn't change it much. (except for the fact that we took the distributor out)

my son says we have spark, too much fuel, and not enough air.

What do we do next?????

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Not trying to be a jerk but saying you didn’t change much right after mentioning a distributor swap doesn’t make sense.

Timing is 100% dependent on the distributor and its position.

If you’re convinced distributor is installed correctly and plug wires are in proper firing order . . . Statically time the car then see if it starts.

Don't rule out the basics including yourself as a variable. Swapped a dizzy recently in our Jeep, wouldn't light up, seemed like no spark.....until I realized I determined TDC incorrectly = oops. Quick re-do of static timing and Vroom! Fired right off.

you're not being a jerk...I probably didn't explain properly. 6 weeks ago when we put the engine back in we had not touched the distributor. It ran ok, then we began to dial it in.

Today, we swapped distributor, points, etc. trying to figure out why it went south.

completely.

my son, who is an ASE mechanic, has been racking his brain and is a little frustrated.

If it was just me, that would be another question.

So, if distributor, points were working properly could they go south? Could changing the wires triggered something?

Using the parts shotgun approach to troubleshoot has created more variables than you started with when it 1st wouldn’t run.

Start over from scratch - verify everything.

You say you have spark - but it needs to be at the appropriate time. (Set static timing)

If you have spark at the proper time and fuel it will run.

Do you see the accelerator pump shooting fuel? Do you smell excess fuel or have wet spark plugs? Why do you say too much fuel not enough air? That is solved by cranking with the throttle open until it catches if you have the idle jets way out of whack.

If you have spark the distributor, points, condenser, etc., didn’t go south.

Is there compression?

I ASSUMED . . . Good call

Three things to run:
Fuel
Compression
Spark

Verify everything

I would put the old distro back in and make sure the wires are correct and the engine is on TDC. Verify actual TDC but popping off 1/2 valve cover to see both rockers rattle.

Make sure when you press the gas pedal you can see all 4 throats get a shot of fuel.

I have to assume compression is enough since it was just running.

Start there first.

Is a cam lobe wiped out? Known history is inconclusive

I gotta disagree with the distributor swap. If it sparks it’s working. The parts swapping isn’t helpful and is just adding to the confusion. It should have never been swapped in the 1st place.

I get the idea behind it but it’s just another chance to get it 180 out or to have the drive gear (below the tang) get lifted and dropped back in a tooth off.

In practice if you take a car into the shop - they will not start by swapping distributors to solve a timing or no spark condition. A distributor swap would be the last thing in the list.

Like you - I assumed compression but it really should be checked if there is spark and fuel

Sounds like a bad condenser to me.

If it’s sparking it isn’t a bad condenser leading to a no start

Yes, a lot of fuel. We pulled the plugs to check the gap and make sure they were dry.

While my son has impressed me assembling this car from the rotisserie, he normally does engine work/timing chains, etc. on 5-10 year old cars.

He is "mr. shotgun" and while he has a great understanding of how things work, working on a car without a dozen computers on it is a challenge at times.

If the swapped in distro is a known working entity then by all means leave it, but it's adding another mysterious part. I always go back to last known since nothing else was supposedly changed from when it was working last.

yes, good compression. except 3 is a little weak.

will check the shot of fuel to each barrel tomorrow

Yes, we put everything back to where it was before.

I don’t fully understand what “back where it was before” means to you.

I’ll reiterate - need to set the static timing. Without engine running based on the exact moment the points open using a multimeter to know when the points open.

Without that set - you’re just guessing that the timing is where it belongs in order to start properly.

Remember that a 4-stroke engine gets to TDC twice...make sure it is at "Ignition" TDC....watch the rockers to verify intake was last valve to close before TDC.

Best thing I've ever seen on setting static timing on a Type IV engine.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzmqp38kRk8

HTH,

GN

thanks, we understand. Can't tell you how many times trying to get to TDC I've said "are we on 1 or 3"

back to where it was before I put the new plug wires on

What is the static timing set at? Should be about 5-7 degrees BTDC. Have you confirmed this?

no one mentioned the 009
it won't be your lack of start problem...

but once it does start.. that curve will create all kinds of crappy running conditions.

brant

Make sure to post the solution when you do figure things out. We love stories of "Oh, you mean you need to plug the coil in for it to work?" Makes the rest of us feel in like-minded company.

I would start by making 100% sure the distributor is installed correctly and not 180° turned. Remove the valve cover of the #1 cilinder , remove the distributor cap and turn the engine until the rotor is pointing to the #1 spark plug lead. Feel if both rockers of the #1 cilinder have clearance, if not the distributor has rotated 180° during install. Happend to me before and I had the same issues you are seeing. I was sure I installed it correct but if it is off by a few degrees when you push it in the engine, the cam won't engage in the notch untill the notch is rotated 180°.

Yes. I'm looking forward to it.

My son had to go with his step dad to Comic Con in KC, so we will be back at it tomorrow or Monday.

Before he left he yanked these off. Probably so I couldn't mess with it while he was gone.

not sure why plug wire #1 is so tight?

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I have to share....my '73 2.0 had "spark" but car would not start for weeks....turned out the spark was not strong enough to work under compression. My non- Porsche cousin said in two seconds "replace the coil" so I did and car started right up and I haven't looked back. Now I know a spark may exist but may not be there under compression...have since learned that the hot-rod high compression crowd knows this one already.....keep going!!
gg

Switch wires 1 and 2 for a better fit.
It is also possible to re-clock the distributor by lifting out the drive gear and rotating it before dropping it back in.

I would plug up the open holes (intake manifolds) asap to keep anything from falling into a cylinder. rag, paper towel, ...

Thanks!


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This seems like a very drastic approach. I don't doubt your son is ASE certified, but I don't like the methodology here.

Facts:
Engine ran - not super, but good enough. You had adjusted the valves and rebuilt the carbs prior.

Was timing correct? Unknown, but good enough to run.

At that time you had Spark, Fuel, Compression.

You replaced aged plug wires - Ran better, but idle wanted to be at 1200. At this point it still ran.

Something happened between when you were not home and the next time you tried to start. Could be a number of things, but you said your son was there. Did he touch something?

Then, you started the shotgun approach to getting it running again. Messed with timing because you put a different distro in. Adjusted points. Possibly some other items. Then you swapped things back to when you first had the problem.

Spark - It was mentioned you have spark. How good did the spark look? Someone commented on a weak spark will show, but may not be enough to get the engine running. The coil should be checked with an Ohm meter to be sure. The wires that are on it now had it running so no continuity issues exist with this new set. Battery is enough to turn the engine over so it should be enough to start unless that sounds week.
Items to do -
Ensure static timing is set
Ensure points gap is correct (.016 if I remember correctly)
Retest the spark is strong

Fuel - This one is easy. You don't even need to have the FP working. If when the throttle is pressed do all 4 jets shoot fuel down the throats, if yes then the system has fuel. The bowls have fuel. As long as before you start you have this then the engine will at least run. This would also mean the issue was not from fuel or fuel delivery as the bowls did not go dry which means the pump is pumping fuel AND you have fuel in the tank

Compression - I think you said this was good. The engine ran so I assume at least enough to have it idle.

This setup is far simpler than FI. Less items to have to check and diagnose. Delving into the spark/timing is where I think you should focus and spend time. Sure could you have plugged idle jets, yes, but it will still run. Throw those carbs back on and get that Spark worked out, just my opinion.

That distributor does not look to be in the right position. It looks about 90 degrees off to me... Could be the wires are plugged in wrong, could be the whole distributor body is rotated wrong.

You should triple-quadruple check the distributor position and the plug wire locations.

--DD

Distributor cap looks to be wired wrong.
Or maybe the distributor is rotated 90 degrees or more clockwise.
Or both.
I think your vacuum can should be about where the condenser is in the picture in post #1.
At least that is how it is on my 1.7 and 2.0. Maybe 1.8 is different...Never worked on one.

Your dizzy is all sorts of awkward in that picture. It’s either wired wrong or it’s 180 out. Either way, this is the cause of your issue.
Give it some gas and you will blow some impressive fireballs out the tops of your carbs this way. BTDT.

Zach

Its easy to tell if you're on one or three by removing the distributor cap to verify that the rotor points at the #1 plug wire position on the cap.

Yikes...if it 'ran' before, but doesn't now, it has nothing to do with the carbs...leave them alone (for now) and sort the issue.

Son #2 who has done 90% of the work on the car in the last 24 weeks is an ASE mechanic. Problem is they must not spend a lot of course time teaching carbs & tuning on 50 year old cars. He is relying on his basic knowledge of how stuff works.

I don't know what happened when I put the plug wires on an it ran well and then next day I'm gone and shoot from the hip son #2 does something.

We WILL get this resolved today.

with all of the great info everyone has posted we will get it straightened out.

Even though to wires are not buttoned up in the clips, I agree something doesn't look right.

as soon as he gets done at the DMV we will get started again.

BTW: Son #1 lives too far away to help. He is a Gold Meister level factory trained Porsche technician and can take apart a 992 (and put it back together) but is like "what's a carburetor?" He did help me take apart the 914 10 years ago though.

Not a dig at your sons.

That statement just about sums up the state of the automotive repair world lately. Failing to teach the basics and focused on OBD codes and swapping parts at random. I see it all the time with friends and family when they attempt to get service.

Lest anyone think I’m picking on mechanics, it’s as bad or worse in the engineering. Lots of book knowledge but can’t tell you how many young engineers I’ve worked with have no clue about how stuff actually works, is manufactured, or can use the generic engineering principles to solve specific problems.

Back in the day it was difficult to find (and keep) a real mechanic. These days it's near impossible to beg, borrow or steal a real mechanic. Being a backyard mechanic for 50+ years(at best) I have had a few victories and a many failures. It's a mindset to understand and diagnose any machine. Personally I like to use Sir Issac Newton's model "put the issue in your brain and wait until it surrenders". Works well for me, best of luck

we are at TDC...how do we set it to 5-7 degrees BTDC?

with a timing light while the engine is running.

Not really a solution when the engine won’t start and they have no idea where the timing is set at.

Static timing is set without the engine running - Google is your friend as is the link that was posted previously.

Post #21 from Gatornapper is one way to do it by observing the spark.

I prefer to use a multimeter across the points to know exactly when the points open. The engine is set at 7 degrees BTDC by referencing the timing mark on the fan without the engine running. The distributor is rotated until the points just open as observed on the multimeter. Lock down the distributor firmly enough that it doesn’t rotate inadvertently when cranking.

This will set the timing such that you know where the spark is going to occur when the engine is cranking. Once started, then you can use the timing light to fine tune and to observe the mechanical advance from a 009 distributor.

We did get it running, kind of. So we used a timing light. But i'm not sure how to use it. I was able to hold rpm at 3,500 while it was scoped and the mark was there.

not sure how to related that to a static timing of 7.5 degrees.

engine is still popping and backfiring like it was originally.

it was running so good, getting a little discouraged.

BTW, did the test on the lift plate and all is good!

If you have it running and can use the light - disregard the static timing. That was only pertinent when you couldn’t get it started.

Now that the carbs have been removed - you’re going to have to work your way back through balancing airflow in each barrel, setting idle mixture, setting idle speed and then synchronizing the two carbs.

Have you done that?

Also what are the Venturi sizes and jets that you’re working with?

Why would we have to do that? Kid took them off...I made him put them back on. Nothing changed except making sure they were good and tight.

Airflow is a final adjustment we were almost there when things went south.

you make it seems so simple. I get the synch'n the carbs, but i'm kind of lost at idle mixture/speed.

Could a valve be stuck and causing chaos? then not sticking and runs fine?

Not likely at all