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> What went wrong?, it was running great and then not at all
Gatornapper
post Mar 15 2023, 07:27 PM
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Best thing I've ever seen on setting static timing on a Type IV engine.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzmqp38kRk8

HTH,

GN
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Type 47
post Mar 15 2023, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE(bossboy302 @ Mar 15 2023, 04:50 PM) *

QUOTE(nditiz1 @ Mar 15 2023, 04:02 PM) *

Verify actual TDC but popping off 1/2 valve cover to see both rockers rattle.


Remember that a 4-stroke engine gets to TDC twice...make sure it is at "Ignition" TDC....watch the rockers to verify intake was last valve to close before TDC.


thanks, we understand. Can't tell you how many times trying to get to TDC I've said "are we on 1 or 3"
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Type 47
post Mar 15 2023, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Mar 15 2023, 04:12 PM) *

QUOTE(Type 47 @ Mar 15 2023, 06:57 PM) *

QUOTE(nditiz1 @ Mar 15 2023, 03:54 PM) *

If the swapped in distro is a known working entity then by all means leave it, but it's adding another mysterious part. I always go back to last known since nothing else was supposedly changed from when it was working last.


Yes, we put everything back to where it was before.

I don’t fully understand what “back where it was before” means to you.

I’ll reiterate - need to set the static timing. Without engine running based on the exact moment the points open using a multimeter to know when the points open.

Without that set - you’re just guessing that the timing is where it belongs in order to start properly.


back to where it was before I put the new plug wires on
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Superhawk996
post Mar 15 2023, 10:22 PM
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What is the static timing set at? Should be about 5-7 degrees BTDC. Have you confirmed this?
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brant
post Mar 16 2023, 10:58 AM
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no one mentioned the 009
it won't be your lack of start problem...

but once it does start.. that curve will create all kinds of crappy running conditions.

brant
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Root_Werks
post Mar 17 2023, 02:11 PM
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Make sure to post the solution when you do figure things out. We love stories of "Oh, you mean you need to plug the coil in for it to work?" Makes the rest of us feel in like-minded company.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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lolkema
post Mar 18 2023, 06:17 PM
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I would start by making 100% sure the distributor is installed correctly and not 180° turned. Remove the valve cover of the #1 cilinder , remove the distributor cap and turn the engine until the rotor is pointing to the #1 spark plug lead. Feel if both rockers of the #1 cilinder have clearance, if not the distributor has rotated 180° during install. Happend to me before and I had the same issues you are seeing. I was sure I installed it correct but if it is off by a few degrees when you push it in the engine, the cam won't engage in the notch untill the notch is rotated 180°.
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Type 47
post Mar 18 2023, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE(Root_Werks @ Mar 17 2023, 12:11 PM) *

Make sure to post the solution when you do figure things out. We love stories of "Oh, you mean you need to plug the coil in for it to work?" Makes the rest of us feel in like-minded company.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Yes. I'm looking forward to it.

My son had to go with his step dad to Comic Con in KC, so we will be back at it tomorrow or Monday.

Before he left he yanked these off. Probably so I couldn't mess with it while he was gone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

not sure why plug wire #1 is so tight?

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second wind
post Mar 19 2023, 01:26 AM
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I have to share....my '73 2.0 had "spark" but car would not start for weeks....turned out the spark was not strong enough to work under compression. My non- Porsche cousin said in two seconds "replace the coil" so I did and car started right up and I haven't looked back. Now I know a spark may exist but may not be there under compression...have since learned that the hot-rod high compression crowd knows this one already.....keep going!!
gg
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ChrisFoley
post Mar 19 2023, 03:27 AM
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QUOTE(Type 47 @ Mar 18 2023, 08:03 PM) *


not sure why plug wire #1 is so tight?


Switch wires 1 and 2 for a better fit.
It is also possible to re-clock the distributor by lifting out the drive gear and rotating it before dropping it back in.
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930cabman
post Mar 19 2023, 05:46 AM
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QUOTE(Type 47 @ Mar 18 2023, 07:03 PM) *

QUOTE(Root_Werks @ Mar 17 2023, 12:11 PM) *

Make sure to post the solution when you do figure things out. We love stories of "Oh, you mean you need to plug the coil in for it to work?" Makes the rest of us feel in like-minded company.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Yes. I'm looking forward to it.

My son had to go with his step dad to Comic Con in KC, so we will be back at it tomorrow or Monday.

Before he left he yanked these off. Probably so I couldn't mess with it while he was gone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

not sure why plug wire #1 is so tight?

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I would plug up the open holes (intake manifolds) asap to keep anything from falling into a cylinder. rag, paper towel, ...
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Type 47
post Mar 19 2023, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE(930cabman @ Mar 19 2023, 03:46 AM) *

QUOTE(Type 47 @ Mar 18 2023, 07:03 PM) *

QUOTE(Root_Werks @ Mar 17 2023, 12:11 PM) *

Make sure to post the solution when you do figure things out. We love stories of "Oh, you mean you need to plug the coil in for it to work?" Makes the rest of us feel in like-minded company.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Yes. I'm looking forward to it.

My son had to go with his step dad to Comic Con in KC, so we will be back at it tomorrow or Monday.

Before he left he yanked these off. Probably so I couldn't mess with it while he was gone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

not sure why plug wire #1 is so tight?

Attached Image
Attached Image


I would plug up the open holes (intake manifolds) asap to keep anything from falling into a cylinder. rag, paper towel, ...


Thanks!


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nditiz1
post Mar 19 2023, 06:14 PM
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This seems like a very drastic approach. I don't doubt your son is ASE certified, but I don't like the methodology here.

Facts:
Engine ran - not super, but good enough. You had adjusted the valves and rebuilt the carbs prior.

Was timing correct? Unknown, but good enough to run.

At that time you had Spark, Fuel, Compression.

You replaced aged plug wires - Ran better, but idle wanted to be at 1200. At this point it still ran.

Something happened between when you were not home and the next time you tried to start. Could be a number of things, but you said your son was there. Did he touch something?

Then, you started the shotgun approach to getting it running again. Messed with timing because you put a different distro in. Adjusted points. Possibly some other items. Then you swapped things back to when you first had the problem.

Spark - It was mentioned you have spark. How good did the spark look? Someone commented on a weak spark will show, but may not be enough to get the engine running. The coil should be checked with an Ohm meter to be sure. The wires that are on it now had it running so no continuity issues exist with this new set. Battery is enough to turn the engine over so it should be enough to start unless that sounds week.
Items to do -
Ensure static timing is set
Ensure points gap is correct (.016 if I remember correctly)
Retest the spark is strong

Fuel - This one is easy. You don't even need to have the FP working. If when the throttle is pressed do all 4 jets shoot fuel down the throats, if yes then the system has fuel. The bowls have fuel. As long as before you start you have this then the engine will at least run. This would also mean the issue was not from fuel or fuel delivery as the bowls did not go dry which means the pump is pumping fuel AND you have fuel in the tank

Compression - I think you said this was good. The engine ran so I assume at least enough to have it idle.

This setup is far simpler than FI. Less items to have to check and diagnose. Delving into the spark/timing is where I think you should focus and spend time. Sure could you have plugged idle jets, yes, but it will still run. Throw those carbs back on and get that Spark worked out, just my opinion.

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Dave_Darling
post Mar 19 2023, 07:51 PM
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That distributor does not look to be in the right position. It looks about 90 degrees off to me... Could be the wires are plugged in wrong, could be the whole distributor body is rotated wrong.

You should triple-quadruple check the distributor position and the plug wire locations.

--DD
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bobboinski
post Mar 19 2023, 09:02 PM
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Distributor cap looks to be wired wrong.
Or maybe the distributor is rotated 90 degrees or more clockwise.
Or both.
I think your vacuum can should be about where the condenser is in the picture in post #1.
At least that is how it is on my 1.7 and 2.0. Maybe 1.8 is different...Never worked on one.
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VaccaRabite
post Mar 19 2023, 09:13 PM
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Your dizzy is all sorts of awkward in that picture. It’s either wired wrong or it’s 180 out. Either way, this is the cause of your issue.
Give it some gas and you will blow some impressive fireballs out the tops of your carbs this way. BTDT.

Zach
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ChrisFoley
post Mar 20 2023, 04:18 AM
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QUOTE(Type 47 @ Mar 15 2023, 10:47 PM) *


thanks, we understand. Can't tell you how many times trying to get to TDC I've said "are we on 1 or 3"

Its easy to tell if you're on one or three by removing the distributor cap to verify that the rotor points at the #1 plug wire position on the cap.
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bossboy302
post Mar 20 2023, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE(ChrisFoley @ Mar 20 2023, 03:18 AM) *

QUOTE(Type 47 @ Mar 15 2023, 10:47 PM) *


thanks, we understand. Can't tell you how many times trying to get to TDC I've said "are we on 1 or 3"

Its easy to tell if you're on one or three by removing the distributor cap to verify that the rotor points at the #1 plug wire position on the cap.


Yikes...if it 'ran' before, but doesn't now, it has nothing to do with the carbs...leave them alone (for now) and sort the issue.
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Type 47
post Mar 20 2023, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE(nditiz1 @ Mar 19 2023, 04:14 PM) *

This seems like a very drastic approach. I don't doubt your son is ASE certified, but I don't like the methodology here.

Facts:
Engine ran - not super, but good enough. You had adjusted the valves and rebuilt the carbs prior.

Was timing correct? Unknown, but good enough to run.

At that time you had Spark, Fuel, Compression.

You replaced aged plug wires - Ran better, but idle wanted to be at 1200. At this point it still ran.

Something happened between when you were not home and the next time you tried to start. Could be a number of things, but you said your son was there. Did he touch something?

Then, you started the shotgun approach to getting it running again. Messed with timing because you put a different distro in. Adjusted points. Possibly some other items. Then you swapped things back to when you first had the problem.

Spark - It was mentioned you have spark. How good did the spark look? Someone commented on a weak spark will show, but may not be enough to get the engine running. The coil should be checked with an Ohm meter to be sure. The wires that are on it now had it running so no continuity issues exist with this new set. Battery is enough to turn the engine over so it should be enough to start unless that sounds week.
Items to do -
Ensure static timing is set
Ensure points gap is correct (.016 if I remember correctly)
Retest the spark is strong

Fuel - This one is easy. You don't even need to have the FP working. If when the throttle is pressed do all 4 jets shoot fuel down the throats, if yes then the system has fuel. The bowls have fuel. As long as before you start you have this then the engine will at least run. This would also mean the issue was not from fuel or fuel delivery as the bowls did not go dry which means the pump is pumping fuel AND you have fuel in the tank

Compression - I think you said this was good. The engine ran so I assume at least enough to have it idle.

This setup is far simpler than FI. Less items to have to check and diagnose. Delving into the spark/timing is where I think you should focus and spend time. Sure could you have plugged idle jets, yes, but it will still run. Throw those carbs back on and get that Spark worked out, just my opinion.


Son #2 who has done 90% of the work on the car in the last 24 weeks is an ASE mechanic. Problem is they must not spend a lot of course time teaching carbs & tuning on 50 year old cars. He is relying on his basic knowledge of how stuff works.

I don't know what happened when I put the plug wires on an it ran well and then next day I'm gone and shoot from the hip son #2 does something.

We WILL get this resolved today.

with all of the great info everyone has posted we will get it straightened out.

Even though to wires are not buttoned up in the clips, I agree something doesn't look right.

as soon as he gets done at the DMV we will get started again.

BTW: Son #1 lives too far away to help. He is a Gold Meister level factory trained Porsche technician and can take apart a 992 (and put it back together) but is like "what's a carburetor?" He did help me take apart the 914 10 years ago though.
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Superhawk996
post Mar 20 2023, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE(Type 47 @ Mar 20 2023, 01:48 PM) *

. . . is like "what's a carburetor?"

Not a dig at your sons.

That statement just about sums up the state of the automotive repair world lately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Failing to teach the basics and focused on OBD codes and swapping parts at random. I see it all the time with friends and family when they attempt to get service.

Lest anyone think I’m picking on mechanics, it’s as bad or worse in the engineering. Lots of book knowledge but can’t tell you how many young engineers I’ve worked with have no clue about how stuff actually works, is manufactured, or can use the generic engineering principles to solve specific problems.
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