Red Wire from Early Wiring Harness, (formerly WTB ad) Options

[Literati914]

I need a length of the fatter red wire from a wiring harness ‘72 and earlier. This is NOT the main cable from starter to + on battery, but rather it’s from up around the fuse panel and thru the harness to the back (later cars do not have the fatter red wire, they went to 4 slightly thinner wires, fyi). 5-6 ft would do, anyone have any extra to sell? LMK, thanks.

ps- I’m extending my battery connections to the trunk and already have extra of the thinner red.

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[ClayPerrine]

I need a length of the fatter red wire from a wiring harness ‘72 and earlier. This is NOT the main cable from starter to + on battery, but rather it’s from up around the fuse panel and thru the harness to the back (later cars do not have the fatter red wire, they went to 4 slightly thinner wires, fyi). 5-6 ft would do, anyone have any extra to sell? LMK, thanks.

ps- I’m extending my battery connections to the trunk and already have extra of the thinner red.

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You are welcome to come over and dig through my boxes of used wiring to see if I have what you need. I have about 4 harnesses that I am parting out.

Clay

[Literati914]

Thanks Clay, I'm now starting to consider sourcing a full length in bulk and avoid a splice. I may have to ring you up for it though. I mean, I will be splicing the smaller reds too (or source some of it at the same time). A splice done well, shouldn't be a problem.

Anyone know the gauge and type needed? I think it might be 16ga but also there's various wire designations (ex. TXL, etc), another reason I was leaning to just do a splice with stock wire..

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[Aerostatwv]

Here's an aftermarket option: https://www.waytekwire.com/product/general-...-91a-automotive

Chris

[Literati914]

Here's an aftermarket option: https://www.waytekwire.com/product/general-...-91a-automotive

Chris

Thanks Chris - but a 500ft minimum ain't gonna work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It looks like McMaster-Carr has what I need, 25ft for cheap:
https://www.mcmaster.com/products/wire/wire...esignation~gxl/

[Aerostatwv]

Here's an aftermarket option: https://www.waytekwire.com/product/general-...-91a-automotive

Chris

Thanks Chris - but a 500ft minimum ain't gonna work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It looks like McMaster-Carr has what I need, 25ft for cheap:
https://www.mcmaster.com/products/wire/wire...esignation~gxl/

LOL, yeah 500' is a bit much.... If McMaster-Carr doesn't have it, you normally don't need it..

[Literati914]

My only reservation is that McMaster-Carr list this 16ga wire as being .11" OD, which (according to google) is only around 2.8mm.

I get around 6mm when I measure OD with calipers, so what's that about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Can someone verify the 16ga designation of the heaviest red wire in an early harness?

[JeffBowlsby]

Extending an existing battery cable, you may need to re-engineer the cable. As it gets longer, resistance and ampacity are effected. I'm not an EE but maybe someone else here is. You may need to upsize the cable.

[mxkinn01]

When I moved my fuel pump up front I used these guys. https://www.sherco-auto.com/
They will sell in small lengths (I bought 25' of each) or 250-500+' big rolls. Like you, I wanted to avoid splicing with multiple connectors and I wanted the correct black with red stripe power wire and brown ground colors, everyone thought I was nuts, but I like to keep things as original as possible. They offered a lot of colors, gauges and material types.
Hope this helps
Mike

[Literati914]

Extending an existing battery cable, you may need to re-engineer the cable. As it gets longer, resistance and ampacity are effected. I'm not an EE but maybe someone else here is. You may need to upsize the cable.

Thanks for the tip, I may need to ask over in the garage - lots of people have moved the battery to the trunk, so maybe there's a concensus on extending the cables.


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[technicalninja]

Every time I've moved a battery and ran extended cables the best bang for the buck has been cables for welders. The individual strands are much finer and there's twice as many in a welding cable versus a "battery" cable. It's about the same price as battery cables with twice as many conductors.

Current thinking (pun intended) is the electrons run on the surface of the individual strands and the finer the strands are the more amperage you can run.

All of the super high end stereo stuff has angel hair conductors. Thousands of them...

[Literati914]

When I moved my fuel pump up front I used these guys. https://www.sherco-auto.com/
They will sell in small lengths (I bought 25' of each) or 250-500+' big rolls. Like you, I wanted to avoid splicing with multiple connectors and I wanted the correct black with red stripe power wire and brown ground colors, everyone thought I was nuts, but I like to keep things as original as possible. They offered a lot of colors, gauges and material types.
Hope this helps
Mike

Thanks Mike, I'll keep that place in mind. My immediate challenge is determining the actual diameter of the big red wire. I'm starting to think it's actually an 8gauge (not 16 as I'd linked to above ^). So what they call "primary" wire, which is like all the other wire in the car seems to only go to 10gauge (too thin). So, then my option is 8gauge battery cable to run the length of the car - it measures the correct .22"/6mm, which is still thinner than the 4gauge that I'll be sourcing for the starter to + terminal on battery (that's another bridge to cross later).

You can see why a splice with used OEM wire looks attractive tho (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

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You can see why I was/am considering doing a splice with used OEM wire.

[windforfun]

Every time I've moved a battery and ran extended cables the best bang for the buck has been cables for welders. The individual strands are much finer and there's twice as many in a welding cable versus a "battery" cable. It's about the same price as battery cables with twice as many conductors.

Current thinking (pun intended) is the electrons run on the surface of the individual strands and the finer the strands are the more amperage you can run.

All of the super high end stereo stuff has angel hair conductors. Thousands of them...

Audio applications use highly stranded cable to provide high frequency Eddy current flow on the conductor surfaces. Ergo stranding. It's for frequency response & not current capacity. Your application doesn't require this. A solid conductor cable would work, but there's no flexibility. I think a 10 gauge stranded cable will work just fine. I have an old wiring harness that anyone can borrow for donor sections. Just cover the cost of shipping. BTW, cable length is really irrelevant in terms of circuit performance since the lengths are so short. Cheers!!!

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[Literati914]

Every time I've moved a battery and ran extended cables the best bang for the buck has been cables for welders. The individual strands are much finer and there's twice as many in a welding cable versus a "battery" cable. It's about the same price as battery cables with twice as many conductors.

Current thinking (pun intended) is the electrons run on the surface of the individual strands and the finer the strands are the more amperage you can run.

All of the super high end stereo stuff has angel hair conductors. Thousands of them...

Hmm, Home Depot offers 20ft of this for $23 ! I like it because at .31" OD it's slightly thicker than the original fat red wire in the harness (this covers what @JeffBowlsby was suggesting about a possible need to increase wire size with distance), and it's still a little smaller OD than the main battery cables. I think I'll give it a try and forgo a line splice.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/WindyNation-8-G...G-20R/319417911

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[technicalninja]

That's a good price for that.

I'd have never thought of HD for cables, I'd have gone to a welding supply house and paid more...

I will NOW check HD the next time I need some. Thanks for sharing, Literati!

I've never seen welding cable with thick individual conductors.

Even their little picture says, "fine stranded for high amperage".

The sheathing is usually tough as nails and seems to last a long time.

You can get long lengths if you need it as well.

Start screwing around with a 50" motorhome and this stuff becomes more important.

A 50-foot length is under a dollar a foot.

[ClayPerrine]

Be careful what you buy new. Not all low voltage wire is rated for automobile use. Automotive wire has to exist in a harsh environment of oil, coolant, heat and cold extremes and vibration. If it is really cheap, it probably won't last in a car.

[windforfun]

"Even their little picture says, "fine stranded for high amperage"."

This is total BS. How many strands are in the conductors in 8 gauge Romex for the 50 amp circuit that feeds your oven?

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[Literati914]

Be careful what you buy new. Not all low voltage wire is rated for automobile use. Automotive wire has to exist in a harsh environment of oil, coolant, heat and cold extremes and vibration. If it is really cheap, it probably won't last in a car.

"Even their little picture says, "fine stranded for high amperage"."

This is total BS. How many strands are in the conductors in 8 gauge Romex for the 50 amp circuit that feeds your oven?

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I hear you guys, but this cable is described as [i]“dual use approved welding cable and battery cable”. I’m not seeing it quote a regulatory standard, but considering I’m not even going to be using it for main battery cable and it’s going to be encased within a fully wire-packed jacket on top of its own protection, for the brief length it runs thru the engine compartment, I’m thinking it’ll be fine. Worst case scenario I may have to add a heat sleeve to the wiring harness that goes thru the engine compartment to the rear trunk firewall.
My main cables will be something else, unless I’m really impressed with this stuff, in which case I could order 4 gauge.

Edit: found this : ASTM Compliant, IEC Certified, ROHS .. also 55 amp max and 575v , UV resistant, 1.78mm jacket
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[technicalninja]

A quick Google search "DC wiring many strands versus few strands" brought this up as the very first thing at the top of the page.
I cannot find a direct origin of this quote however.
This is what I have been taught, I have no direct scientific proof of this, and it may be BS as Windforfun insists.



"In DC, electrons actually move down the wire, and actually mostly move on the surface of the wire. So having a lot of strands in the wire gives a LOT more surface area for the electrons to move. The wire with many strands is a lot more flexible as well."



I was enrolled in the A+P program at Tarrant County College and the instructors were adamant that replacement wiring had to have the same number of strands or MORE.
They were quite bitchy about that. I didn't think of questioning their advice.
Their reasoning was the same as the Google quote.

There is a huge difference between AC power and DC power and the wiring should not be directly compared. It's apples to oranges in my book.

The aircraft world is hugely rooted in the past and any new thing is looked at with a jaundiced eye.

They rolled a Porsche/Mooney engine into class one day and advised everyone that this was a fairly complex and intricate FI system and new technicians shouldn't even think about touching these at all.

It was an old (no longer emissions compliant) CIS system, and I shocked the instructors with my knowledge of this system. I did advise every single VW rabbit, a bunch of Porsches, a shitload of Volvos, and countless other European vehicles came with this set up as far as two decades ago (this was early 90s). The one they had was the very first fully mechanical version and later versions of this same system were far more complex and worked better (Lamda control).
They had the dead ass simple version, and it was not nearly as complex as they made it out to be.
My comment regarding it was "Porsche had a bunch of these left over that they couldn't sell on a car nowadays and they pawned them off on the aircraft world".

I taught the class that day...
I was far more experienced with CIS than anyone else in the building.

I'm not trying to argue with you Wind, but you are the ONLY guy to ever have a problem with this. I have accepted that a wire with more strands is better than a wire with fewer strand for DC wiring.

I've used welding cables many times, have installation that have been in use for decades, and have never had an issue with them. The quality is often better IMO than "automotive" grade wire.

I would add fire sheathing to anything running close to a heat source automatically.
Doesn't have to be wiring.

If someone has real data that shows the number of strands in meaningless, I would love to see it. This is how I learn.

[windforfun]

There is nothing wrong with lots of strands. They provide great flexibility with excellent high frequency response for AC applications such as audio & RF. They're not necessary for DC applications or even 60 Hz for house wiring. Highly stranded cable is harder to insulation strip without cutting some of the strands. I use a thermal insulation stripper. No matter. Besides, electrons flow from atom to atom & are not continuously independent. Solid flat thin wire is often used for high end esoteric audio applications for excellent frequency response & dynamic range. It's all about Eddy current flow on the conductor surface. I have a MSEE from Columbia University, class of "79 (no brag just fact). Call me at 408-802-0155 to discuss this if you like.

Regards,
Peter

P.S. Coaxial cable, which is used for RF, is a wave-guide with a single center conductor wrapped in a dielectric surrounded by a highly stranded shield. This is often covered by a metal foil & the cable can handle lots of current. Go figure. Give me a call.

P.S.S. The other thing too is that all the strands are touching each other. So what's the actual electrical/physical difference between solid & stranded wire other than flexibility? It's like the old Fleetwood Mac album (song): "It's a Mystery to Me" IIRC.

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