P-car 6 or SBC 8, for Ury Options

[andys]

914 V8 = supercar performance on a pizza budget. That is, if you follow the proven path. Ok, I mentioned my good friend that just got a P-TT. I think it's 418HP (?). Paid big bucks, but did get a very comfortable GT car you could jump into and drive to Vegas (or choose your destination) without a care. That might be a bit presumptuous with regard to a 914 V8, but doable with a sorted car........but likely a far less comfortable ride.

If I were to envision (since I've never driven one) a 3+ litre 6, I would think it would behave much like an original 6, but with way more power and better handling from a hopefully upgraded suspension. The P-car crowd would mostly be quite ok with this conversion, so if acceptance/staying true to the mark is what you choose, then so be it.

Either direction has it's merits, and from my perspective, both have their strong points.....Do it your way! For sound, well again very subjective........a 6 at full song has a fantastically sofisticated tone. An angry SBC is pretty sweet.....slightly OT story. When my buddy and I ran a stock car roadrace series, we showed for an open practice day. The Interscope team (Danny Ongais/Ted Field) were unloading a prototype when we fired up our 358 cu. in., 180 degree headered, 14:1, Tilton 7" clutched, RPM *RIGHT NOW* SBC, all those guys stopped to take notice...it was actually quite amusing given what they were unloading.

Andy

[grantsfo]

I have yet to see a fast budget V8 914 AX car. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Crazyhippy]

there's more to life than auto cross (blasphemous statement around here)

Once you have the HP to go faster than 70MPH, you get to play on the big tracks too (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/boldblue.gif)

Imagine actually passing someone, not having to beat them w/ a stopwatch (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bootyshake.gif)

Pretty much everytime you add cylinders it sounds better, from a single (lawnmower), to a twin (hardley), to a tripple (triumph motorcycle, wicked sound), to a 4 cyl (fart can honda) to a 6 (topic of discussion here) to an 8(really tough to beat w/ decent exhaust at rpm think nascar at speed (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif) ) to a 10 (Carrera GT) to a 12 (ferrari)

And it sounds like sammy's car had a truck motor in it, a Hi-Po SBC revs really free (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) Lots of power and little rotating weight (comparatively)

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 18 2005, 03:40 PM)

Pretty much everytime you add cylinders it sounds better, from a single (lawnmower), to a twin (hardley), to a tripple (triumph motorcycle, wicked sound), to a 4 cyl (fart can honda) to a 6 (topic of discussion here) to an 8(really tough to beat w/ decent exhaust at rpm think nascar at speed (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif) ) to a 10 (Carrera GT) to a 12 (ferrari) And it sounds like sammy's car had a truck motor in it, a Hi-Po SBC revs really free (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) Lots of power and little rotating weight (comparatively)

you forgot about Audi and Volvo 5 cyl engines.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

[Crazyhippy]

and probably some 7 and 9 cyl rotaries (airplane motors)

I've never heard a 5 cyl at speed, damned audi's and vulvas are way to quiet for my tastes.

The original side exhaust vipers sounded like (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/stromberg.gif) Reminded me of a UPS truck from the side, sounded fine straight on though (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

[J P Stein]

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Aug 18 2005, 11:40 AM)

But a SBC puts you straight into Prepared.

Modifed, actually....A Mod if you're over 5 liters. Life is real hard there. You'll get killed by a 800 lb mocycle engined car with WOO wings.

I've never personally seen a decent SBC AXer run....seen some slow ones tho. Most guys don't have any idea what it takes to hook up the power of a 914 mit V8. MikeD is an exception, me thinks. Brett may well do it....he's gonna try rather than dream so I wish him the best of luck.

[goose2]

I've driven lots of fours, a couple sixes...and one SBC. When I first drove the V8 (courtesy Camp Craig), I thought "I want it". It was nasty, loud, and blinding fast. It also felt heavy and crude...huge tires with big spacers to fill out the flares made the steering feel like a '60's american muscle car...heavy clutch, imprecise throttle, bone-jarring ride. I thought this was all very cool and was everything a hot rod sports car should be. I still feel that way. After my ride in the crusher, I drove my old 1.7 home. It was light, nimble, well balanced, quiet, smooth, easy to drive and economical. I could actually put my foot to the floor and work it through the gears without risking death or a ticket. I like that too. My point is, the big V8 changes the character of the car. In some ways it's better...some ways worse. It depends on what you like and what you want your car to be. Since I like both ends of the spectrum but can't afford 2....I got a six. I'm happy with it and it does everything I want (although I am adding more power soon). If I could justify owning another car only for the occasional thrill ride, I'd have a V8 in a heartbeat.

Another point...why are almost all the V8 cars using SBC's? I used to have a Sunbeam Tiger with a Shelby spec 289 Ford...much lighter, over 300 hp, 7400 redline, 13 second quarter mile on street tires! I loved that motor. 90% of the world's street rods use the SBC for a reason I guess, but there are alternatives.

[Dr. Roger]

Fully prepd' SBC. Roller everything. Balanced and injected.
930 tranny.
Fully adjustable suspension/brakes.
FAT rubber.
= Great handling and great cost.
Total cost?>>>>> $_25,000
Reliable, replacement parts purchased at FLAPS =-)))

Fully prepped P powered 914
Great handling and $_________ ?????


I don't know how much the P powered option costs but this is how my brain thinks....

Heck doesn't a 220lb driving teacher in a 6 weigh the same as a single driver w/a SBC?

Honda S2000 engine 100HP per liter. Hmmmmm.... =-)

[Andyrew]

Grant...

What chu trying to say (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)


Its driver.... I cant drive it gud...

(and im on street tires...)

[grantsfo]

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Aug 18 2005, 04:53 PM)

Grant... What chu trying to say (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) Its driver.... I cant drive it gud... (and im on street tires...)

Actually you do great in that car. Its just that the SBC raises center of gravity and adds a tons of weight. Its too hard to overcome the physics of this car with a SBC unless you add tons of reinforcement to the rear suspension, big tires etc. And then you still have a car that wont get around a tight course as quickly as a lightweight 4 or 6.

I know there are a few well done v8 conversions with proper tranny, beefed up and reinforced rear suspension half shats etc. But most V8 conversions I have seen cant lay into the accelerator without worry about breaking something.

[Crazyhippy]

Now you're talking about lightweights... the difference is less than a driving instructor for comparable cars. If you wan to throw enough money at it you can go to an aluminum block from donovan and save another 80+lbs, and were into a double digit difference (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

Sounds like

QUOTE

Its just that the SBC raises center of gravity and adds a tons of weight

As far as the raised CG... put the battery in the front trunk, fixed. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smoke.gif)

You are comparing a moped to a superbike. Sure you can ride around your backyard quicker on the moped, and it feels so light and flickable on the street (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) it HAS to be better right? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bs.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

My last 914 had a mild 327 in it ~290hp. It was an el-cheapo motor, steel heads, reconditioned stock rods, only spun it to 7k rpm. It was faster around most tracks than the Turbo's and vipers in my run group (just DE's, intermediate group usually, occasional advanced) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif) It cornered as well as the boxsters, and was damn near as fast as the viper on the straights (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mueba.gif) not 1/2 bad for being

QUOTE

heavy and crude

Done right a SBC is as smooth (or smoother) than stock, the handling is un-changed, more reliable, and the power, well it exists. I have video somewhere of Scott M.'s monster fo an orange car blowing by a -6 that was trying to accelerate (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif) It was kinda like video taping your 6 year old riding his bike when Lance Armstrong goes flying by (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

Anyways, i'm going to get a (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer3.gif) ro 3 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[J P Stein]

Untill Chevy made the Z06, Vettes were not good track cars.....without some serious cooling work.

Most all V8 race cars
are drysumped with large oil coolers as that is about the only way to reject enough heat ....now ya don't need to drysump to have an oilcooler, but since it's worth some hp and tends to not allow the oil to "rope" the crank (along with some windage tray/oil scrapper work while you're there), you might as well.

Older style SBCs at extendend hi RPMs also tended to fill their valve covers with oil to the detriment of the bottom end and the valve cover gaskets. Since most 914SBCs overheat on the street, you've got a real problem on the track.

So if you're doing some 914 SBC track car dreaming, crank up the budget a few notches......or prepare for melt down.
The guys in Stock cars/sprint cars have solved these problems and they'll sell you motor....which would be cheaper in the long run.(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Now to the 911 6. In the late 60s/early 70s, you could buy a 911S, make the required saftey mods and go do/finish the 24 hours of Le Mans....many folks did.....get it?

[Brett W]

I am going to do my best Jake impression, (since he and I agree on this), "Its all about the package". (Don't go there Miles) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

A properly built four, six, eight, ten, twelve, sixteen, etc will not be cheap. The car to support any of the above engines will not be cheap. If you want the best, don't go cheap andcut corners on Brakes, suspension, tires, or chassis. You can't take a noodle designed for 95hp and expect it not to get tweaked when you quadruple the HP. The 914 chassis is a noodle to start with and in order to take advantage of any engine package you will need the rest of the package built to support it.

I wouldn't bother with a cast iron SBC anymore. IN time the LS1, 2, 6, and 7 will be cheap enough and plentiful for everyone. They weigh about the same as the porsche six, probably less in many cases. The last version of the LS1 race engine weighed in at 330lbs and made over 600hp at 6200rpm with a restrictor. Why kill an engine when you can make that kind of HP at low rpms and have more torque than anyone should legally have.

I have never been a great Vette fan but the new car is a whole new game. Porsche will get their ass handed to them.

Now as to the sound of a high revving Six, can't argue it does sound nice but the new watercooled engines sound better. Most V8s sound better than a six any day. Take a Flat crank V8 and that is probably one of the best sounding engines in the world, next to a flat crank V12.

With a 400hp V8 914 I can put a shitty driver in it an he will wail all over a decent driver with a stock four cylinder. Sorry facts is facts. There is something to be said for pulling GT1 Corvettes down a straight-away. The only thing you will pull down the straight-away in a stock 914-4 or 6 is the recovery vehicle.

If I wanted a six cylinder Porsche I would use a watercooled motor. There is a reason the 959,962, 986, 996, Carrera GT, etc are watercooled. Durability, HP, emissions, and noise. Who wants to hear all that mechanical racket? Thats why Type4s sound like Diesels.

[neo914-6]

Man, all this piss'n and dis'n...just build, drive, race or drool what you like. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

Oh, and twin turbo sixes are better. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

[Bleyseng]

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Aug 18 2005, 05:36 PM)

Fully prepd' SBC. Roller everything. Balanced and injected. 930 tranny. Fully adjustable suspension/brakes. FAT rubber. = Great handling and great cost. Total cost?>>>>> $_25,000 Reliable, replacement parts purchased at FLAPS =-))) Fully prepped P powered 914 Great handling and $_________ ????? I don't know how much the P powered option costs but this is how my brain thinks.... Heck doesn't a 220lb driving teacher in a 6 weigh the same as a single driver w/a SBC? Honda S2000 engine 100HP per liter. Hmmmmm.... =-)

'bout $25,000. The thing is the P powered car can be sold for around the 25k the chebbie powered car can't.

Give me a 3.2L six car anyday over a V8 powered one. The ones I have driven were scary fast so it becomes a how fast to you have to go?

[Crazyhippy]

I'm going to disagree w/ the SBC not being able to sell for that, have have personally sat in 3 different SBC914's that have sold for more than 25K (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) (none of them were mine unfortunately (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) )

And if you think it's too fast, more power to you, there are still faster cars. it's just more than you are used to (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[brant]

QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 18 2005, 03:40 PM)

there's more to life than auto cross (blasphemous statement around here) Once you have the HP to go faster than 70MPH, you get to play on the big tracks too (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/boldblue.gif) Imagine actually passing someone, not having to beat them w/ a stopwatch (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bootyshake.gif)

It sounds like your track options are greater where ever your at...

but around here there are many less big track options with a chevy engined car.

You could run DE with a few of the open clubs. (audi, nissan) Those clubs are a little bit smaller and a little bit more laxed about whom they allow in to help them fill their grids.

but strictly DE and not real racing.

for real racing you could run SCCA and expect to be killed by people with 50K into their cars.

If you want to run a chevy (or ford ) V8 in wheel to wheel competition other than SCCA, you had better buy a tiger, cobra, mustang, camaro or something that had that motor in it originally or they WON'T LET YOU PLAY.

so as with most things track related.
you read the rule book and build from there.

A street car may be a whole nother arguement, but If you have the ability to get onto a race track there is no reason to have a powerful car on the street. It is much safer for yourself and those around you to hit 9/10ths or 10/10ths on the track.

brant

[Sammy]

My V8 914 was fast on the AX track. Faster than it's driver.

Well, actually it ended up that way, at first it was slower than snot.
I put 205-15 victoracers on the back with stock rock hard michelins in front and that made all the difference in the world.
I was able to rotate the car at will with my right foot. No worries about understeer at all and the car was predictable and controllable.
That last time i took it out I finished 7th overall TTOD which doesn't sound all that impressive until you look at the field of 60 cars, 10 of them driven by instructors, and many of them trailer cars that werent even close to street legal. That and the fact that my driving skills suck. It was a OCR PCA event with some hotshots who came up from SDR.
I think I ended up less that 2 seconds behind TTOD, a hopped up (real) 73 RS which took out several cones on his fastest run but wasn't penalized for it. I was a couple seconds ahead of our AX chairman who was driving a trailered 2 liter 914 on slicks with mucho suspension upgrades. My car was the fastest 914 that day. That was also the best AX showing of my illustrious career (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

One of em came up to me and asked how I could post such fast times with my clutch slipping so bad out of the corners. I told him it wasn't my clutch, it was my back tires (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

By comparison, my SC would prolly be at least 4 seconds a lap slower than my 914 on the same track.

[turbo914v8]

Great topic and great ideas/point of views. Here is my .02 worth. At over 1000 HP and over a 1000 ponds of torque in a twin turbo charged twin intercooler v8 914 I have a few things to say from experience HEHEHEHE (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) . First off do your chasse right. I am suffering form not enough re-enforcements resulting in a cracked chasse; I am now in the process of rebuilding with full roll cage. More on that at a later date. My engine is a Chevy 350 with a RH cooling system. Track or street there is no over heating problem. The motor will rev well past 7000 RPM but with even the lowest boost setting of 12 psi there is no reason to with 700 + hp generated from the 12 psi of boost. The turbo system gives great fuel mileage and a very quiet ride as long as you keep your foot out of it. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) Why so much HP? Because I can. Is it useable power? Depends what your using it for as many have stated earlier. But lets just say there is nothing like putting your foot into it and being pinned back in your seat. Does it cost a lot of money? Sure it does. In any vehicle. The more HP you want the more $$$$ it will cost. Having a high HP 914 is like being a super villain. The good guys (Porsche purists) just don’t see it coming until it’s too late. They get there A$$ kicked and then want to cry with excuses, well your 914 is not a Porsche because it has a v8 in it. I am sure some of you can relate. The bottom line here is that we are all brothers embarking on a common journey that has brought us all here together with one common goal! The thrill of driving a Porsche. Weather your a stocker, or conversion nut like my self we all do it for the same reason we love working on and driving these cars. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[URY914]

Feel the love, Brother. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wub.gif)

I'm going to build a 917-30 replica and hang a 914 body on it. 1100-1200 HP.
The PCA will be happy and all my brothers here will be happy. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

I'll just have to buy a CNC machine so I can make the engine...any one have any plans? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)

I'll do that after I install my MASSIVE TYPE-4!!! You see fellas, I'm a purist. I have a 914 with a Type -4 engine. Plane and simple, just the way it came from the factory. Sure, I've done some work to it, but it still has that connection with the past. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

Paul (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif)