Oil Leaks, I am tired of them Options

[ctc911ctc]

I love the Stainless heater boxes, are they new? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif)

Also, the gray ducting is a nice touch - I powder coated in Black, thought about other colors and chickened out, very nice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Loosened everything up, removed the heater ducts and flappers and wala - muffler went on easily. I'm sure I had to do the same thing last time around, but obviously have forgotten. Now everything on the underside of the car is buttoned up except for a bit of wiring. Next I move to the topside to re-install fuel lines and carbs. Hoping it is a runner again sometime this weekend.

[technicalninja]

Forgot to mention a couple of steps I'd do with the "run out of the car" scenario.

Leak down and compression test before the run and then DIRECTLY afterwards.

It's so much easier to do this crap out of the car.

I do the "hot" test as quickly as I could because it will cool fast, especially if your pumping cool air through it or applying cool air at 100 psi into it.

On something I really care about (or a customer is paying big money for) I'll do a "heat cycle" between the comp and leak tests.

I believe the first 90% of break in happens in the first 90 seconds and I commonly achieve comp tests within 1% of each other and leak downs in the high 90s after the first heat cycle.

Most GM engines mount the starter on the block, and you don't even need the transmission bolted up to run the engine. I've fired those on engine stands before.

[sdoolin]

I'd first clean all the oil with B12 carb spray and needle tipped blowgun.

Drain oil into clean pan.

Get the suspect area dry.

Have someone else fill it while I watched that spot like a hawk.

I cannot fathom why that should even see oil much less leak profusely by simply filling the sump.

Having someone fill it while I watch is a stellar idea. I too cannot fathom why it is leaking at all from that location without even having been run. It don't make no sense.

If you look a couple pages back in this thread you'll see a pic of that part of the engine on the bench before I cleaned it. There is a significant amount of oil. So it has been leaking for some time. I can understand it perhaps leaking after it has been running, or while it is running, but now? No.

[sdoolin]

Ninja - there's really no reason for me to do a leakdown or compression test at this point. The engine ran strong - quite strong - when I took it out of the car to clean it up and fix oil leaks. No major disassembly was done, so no need for those tests.

[sdoolin]

I love the Stainless heater boxes, are they new? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif)

Also, the gray ducting is a nice touch - I powder coated in Black, thought about other colors and chickened out, very nice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Loosened everything up, removed the heater ducts and flappers and wala - muffler went on easily. I'm sure I had to do the same thing last time around, but obviously have forgotten. Now everything on the underside of the car is buttoned up except for a bit of wiring. Next I move to the topside to re-install fuel lines and carbs. Hoping it is a runner again sometime this weekend.

The stainless heater boxes are not new, just seriously cleaned. The grey duct work is actually powder coat, and it is "Porsche Grey". It actually has a teeny bit of metal flake in it.

[r_towle]

You are seeing oil at the case bolt?
I’m not sure there is oil there until you run the engine, which you said you did not?
I can’t remember…those bolts have rubber seals I think.

I need to go look at a case to see the levels for static oil.

[technicalninja]

Ninja - there's really no reason for me to do a leakdown or compression test at this point. The engine ran strong - quite strong - when I took it out of the car to clean it up and fix oil leaks. No major disassembly was done, so no need for those tests.

Sorry, every single time I've run an engine out of the car it's either a junk yard unit I'm testing OR it's something I've just built. In both instances getting those numbers are really what I'm after.

Now, if you haven't done those tests in a year AND are planning on running it out of chassis I would do it anyway as you have awesome access to the front crank bolt, and I log comp and leak-down over the years on stuff that I really like.

Having recent comp and leak is like having recent blood pressure readings on a human.

I don't trust COLD comp and leak, especially if the engine has been dormant for a while.

[r_towle]

I dunno…there is no oil at the bolt.
Maybe the cylinder…but the bolts do not appear to ever see oil inside or out unless something else is dripping on them.

I can take more pics of the inside of the case… but it looks like a solid sleeve all the way through.

[r_towle]

Actually a decent pic for my theory.
Look at where you pour oil in.
That whole channel , if the top gasket (simple issue) is not right…at the metal box you place onto the aluminum case, was to leak…
Oil could , in theory, travel down to the middle of the motor to drip.

[technicalninja]

You are seeing oil at the case bolt?
I’m not sure there is oil there until you run the engine, which you said you did not?
I can’t remember…those bolts have rubber seals I think.

I need to go look at a case to see the levels for static oil.

I did...

the only holes level with or below the windage tray are the three lower cam journal fasteners on the passenger side case.
The front and the back ones fully close as they are at the case mating surface.

This surface is cut back on the driver's case side to provide room for the hanger for the oil pump pick-up at the middle bolt and MIGHT be a path for the leak he's describing.

I don't know how high 4 qts. will fill a T4 sump.
I'm assuming the level is below the windage tray.

[bkrantz]

Just speculating...

If you added 4 qts but have not run the engine, the level in the sump could be higher than normal. And just might reach that small bolt (which provides a clamp for the center cam bearing, and retains the stud for the strainer). If that bolt head is not sealed, it could leak. But would have to be very unsealed to leak as quickly as you reported.

Can you see if the bolt is tight?

[technicalninja]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

That's the only path I can see being possible.

[sdoolin]

Just speculating...

If you added 4 qts but have not run the engine, the level in the sump could be higher than normal. And just might reach that small bolt (which provides a clamp for the center cam bearing, and retains the stud for the strainer). If that bolt head is not sealed, it could leak. But would have to be very unsealed to leak as quickly as you reported.

Can you see if the bolt is tight?

Thanks for the thoughts and replies. My leak is from the case through bolt which is located just above the red circled hole in the image above. Which (again) is baffling. I do recall that when I re-assembled the cases (4 years ago) I got things bolted together and realized I had not installed the oil pickup. So I had to quickly split the cases again, install the oil pickup, and the re-tighten things. Perhaps this is the ultimate source of this leak? I still just don't get how oil is here.

I'll see if I can get a wrench or a socket on that bolt, but it is pretty unlikely with everything all bolted up. It hides behind the lower engine tins under the cylinders.

[Jack Standz]

Sorry to have to even mention it, but the Type IV Syndrome can cause that bolt to never get tight and cause it to leak.

Like in this tread:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612973

Edit:
Sorry, was going by the hole/fastener in the red circle, which is not the hole in question. Best guess is that the motor has too much oil and it's above the level of the hole that's leaking. What's the oil level on the dipstick?

[sdoolin]

Sorry to have to even mention it, but the Type IV Syndrome can cause that bolt to never get tight and cause it to leak.

Like in this tread:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612973

Edit:
Sorry, was going by the hole/fastener in the red circle, which is not the hole in question. Best guess is that the motor has too much oil and it's above the level of the hole that's leaking. What's the oil level on the dipstick?

Oil level on the dipstick is spot-on.

[Dave_Darling]

My guess is that someone spilled oil on top of the engine, and it made its way down and out. It'll look like it's coming out of all kinds of strange places.

.... Not that I've done that myself.

.... more than once.

--DD

[r_towle]

I wonder…..
Could push rod tubes be threaded into the case with a slip joint in the middle to account for expansion and retraction?

Or, did Foley solve this?

[sdoolin]

Engine is back out of the car and on the bench. Car is down for the summer now. Damnit. I just couldn't stand the thought of a continued (preventable) oil leak.

Updates to this thread as they become meaningful (or fun).

[bkrantz]

I feel your pain. Start with a deep breath. Or three.

[sdoolin]

Started disassembly last night - halfheartedly. This engine does not have a windage tray - it came out of a bus that I owned for decades. Do I "need" a windage tray?

If yes, where do I source one?