Project 3.6 RS Thread, Next steps Fuel Injection and wiring harness . Options

[Steve]

After 23 years of service out of my 3.2, I decided to buy a used 1995 3.6 from LA Dismantler with 110k miles on it. I paid $25k for the motor, Plus an additional $5k from PMS for conversion parts. Got this motor home and two of the cylinders had bad leak down from the exhaust valves. Lots of goofy issues with 3.6 motors. They have an electric smog pump which clogs the SAI passages in the exhaust valves. Sometimes you can turn the engine over with compressed air through the spark plug openings and use a rubber mallet on the exhaust valves to clear it out. This did not work for me, so I sent my motor out to get a top end overhaul, bigger valves and RS Cams.
This will not be an RS spec motor. RS Spec is 3.8 liters, bigger valves, different injection, etc. My motor is just a 1995 993 motor with one size bigger valves, RS cams and steve wong chip. I asked PMS about the 3.8 slip ins and they said their is very little noticeable difference between the two and not worth it unless your changing the P&C's anyway.

LA Dismantler lessons learned:
-Get a warranty in writing
-Do a leak down at their location before buying the motor.
I did neither and they came up with a ton of excuses not to help me.
This is also true for any wrecking yard. My Euro 3.2 also came from a wrecking yard with no warranty, but that motor was flawless.

This will probably be a very slow progress thread. I still work full time and have a family. I bought this motor two years ago and finally pulled the 3.2 a couple of weeks ago. I sold the 3.2 to the guy that did the top end overhaul on my 3.6. On the 3.2, two of the cylinders had poor leak down, due to weak rings. The motor ran great before I pulled it and all the spark plugs looked the same. So I was very surprised about the leak down results. Besides spending $4500 to PMS three years ago to reseal this engine, it has never been apart. The PMS reseal was due to the normal oil leaks around the cam chain housings and other areas. Who knows how many miles were on it. The guy who bought it said the rings are weak and to spray WD40 in the cylinders. Sure enough it brought the leak down, from 30% down to 3% on one cylinder and from 10% down to 5% on the other. He plans on doing a top end overhaul on it and flipping it or putting it in one of his 914's.

I will add pictures and more info as time goes on.
Old Euro 3.2 motor

Used 3.6 motor

[Steve]

Got stripped motor back from the top end overhaul. First thing I noticed so far was two stripped exhaust valve cover screws. I was going to install a couple helicoils, but I was able to clean the threads with a metric tap and dye set and use slightly longer 6x35 Allen screws versus stock 6x30. I don’t know why they went to smaller Allen screws on the 3.6. They are very easy to strip. Only 7 lbs of torque. I also installed Rennline valve covers. I had to grind down the top one to clear the oil line.

[Root_Werks]

Be interesting to get your take on a 3.2 vs. 3.6.

Thanks for sharing the journey with us!

[Steve]

Be interesting to get your take on a 3.2 vs. 3.6.

Thanks for sharing the journey with us!

I'm also curious... My stock Euro 3.2 with Steve Wong chip and matching 1986 915 gear box was amazing. On the way back from Rennsport chasing GT3's i wound out each gear including 4th like their was no wind resistance. I backed off in 5th at a 135 because I didn't want to go to jail. I have stock height tires. The 3.2 is much simpler to install in a 914 because you can use six tin, etc. 3.6 is allot more work, but it has hydraulic lifters and some other enhancements over the 3.2.

[Cairo94507]

Looking forward to seeing this progress as I am still a few weeks away from dropping my 3.2 to start down this same path. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[SirAndy]

I paid $25k out of my 401k for this motor. Plus an additional $5k from PMS for conversion parts.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I mean, i'm happy for you, the 3.6L is a blast in a 914, but man have prices changed since i did my conversion.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Steve]

I paid $25k out of my 401k for this motor. Plus an additional $5k from PMS for conversion parts.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I mean, i'm happy for you, the 3.6L is a blast in a 914, but man have prices changed since i did my conversion.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) 3.2 motors are also nuts. $15k for a core and another $15k to overhaul it or maybe top end overhaul for $8k. So.. rebuilt 3.2's are worth $25-30 depending on work done to them.

For more info on 3.6 conversion, check out Sir Andy's link in his signature. Lots of good information.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=44700

[NARP74]

Unfortunately these prices are the new norm. They are not going back.

[mepstein]

Unfortunately these prices are the new norm. They are not going back.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Look at the prices of the cars. Carrera’s ( the whole car) used to sell in the teens. So when I bought my rebuilt 3.2 engine for $4,500, it was a reasonable price. Now the Carrera’s are $70-80k so a $25-30k rebuilt engine is right in line.

[Steve]

Unfortunately these prices are the new norm. They are not going back.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Look at the prices of the cars. Carrera’s ( the whole car) used to sell in the teens. So when I bought my rebuilt 3.2 engine for $4,500, it was a reasonable price. Now the Carrera’s are $70-80k so a $25-30k rebuilt engine is right in line.

I paid $5200 for my Euro 3.2 back in 2000. 3.6 back then sold for $8-10.

[Root_Werks]

Steve,

If you were looking for an option to run hydraulic tappets, my 2.7 uses 993 cam caps and 964 cams with hydro tappets. Would think something similar could be done on a 3.2?

-Dan

[mepstein]

We go the opposite on our performance 3.6-4.0 builds. Switch to solid rockers and RS style cams.
This is a 993 converted to 3.8, RS cams, big valves, ect.

[Steve]

Steve,

If you were looking for an option to run hydraulic tappets, my 2.7 uses 993 cam caps and 964 cams with hydro tappets. Would think something similar could be done on a 3.2?

-Dan

No reason why it wouldn't work on a 3.2. It's just a cost issue. A 3.6 has a mass air flow meter (firewire) (versus barn door AFM on a 3.2), twin plug and bigger displacement. All can be done to a 3.2 for a price. I'm also a big fan on stock versus mods. I went from 2.7 to 3.2 and now to 3.6.

Mark @mepstein
Why RS cams unless you want to keep the hydraulic tappets? So much better cam options with solid tappets. RS was the biggest I could go and keep the hydraulic lifters. I'm getting older and don't want to adjust valves if I don't have to. Even though I probably adjust valves every 5-10 years since I only use my car for Cars & Coffee and events. I thought about 3.8, but I am not a fan of slip ins and I did not want to split the case (bigger bucks). 4.0 is a ridiculous amount of money. I was told it requires GT3 crank and ITB's.

[mepstein]

Steve,

If you were looking for an option to run hydraulic tappets, my 2.7 uses 993 cam caps and 964 cams with hydro tappets. Would think something similar could be done on a 3.2?

-Dan

No reason why it wouldn't work on a 3.2. It's just a cost issue. A 3.6 has a mass air flow meter (firewire) (versus barn door AFM on a 3.2), twin plug and bigger displacement. All can be done to a 3.2 for a price. I'm also a big fan on stock versus mods. I went from 2.7 to 3.2 and now to 3.6.

Mark @mepstein
Why RS cams unless you want to keep the hydraulic tappets? So much better cam options with solid tappets. RS was the biggest I could go and keep the hydraulic lifters. I'm getting older and don't want to adjust valves if I don't have to. Even though I probably adjust valves every 5-10 years since I only use my car for Cars & Coffee and events. I thought about 3.8, but I am not a fan of slip ins and I did not want to split the case (bigger bucks). 4.0 is a ridiculous amount of money. I was told it requires GT3 crank and ITB's.

I misspoke. It’s not an rs cam. It’s very similar to a GT2 evo cam.

[Justinp71]

After 23 years of service out of my 3.2, I decided to buy a used 1995 3.6 from LA Dismantler with 110k miles on it. I paid $25k out of my 401k for this motor. Plus an additional $5k from PMS for conversion parts. When you turn 59.5 there is no penalty for dumping some of your 401k. Got this motor home and two of the cylinders had bad leak down from the exhaust valves. Lots of goofy issues with 3.6 motors. They have an electric smog pump which clogs the SAI passages in the exhaust valves. Sometimes you can turn the engine over with compressed air through the spark plug openings and use a rubber mallet on the exhaust valves to clear it out. This did not work for me, so I sent my motor out to get a top end overhaul, bigger valves and RS Cams.

LA Dismantler lessons learned:
-Get a warranty in writing
-Do a leak down at their location before buying the motor.
I did neither and they came up with a ton of excuses not to help me.
This is also true for any wrecking yard. My Euro 3.2 also came from a wrecking yard with no warranty, but that motor was flawless.

This will probably be a very slow progress thread. I still work full time and have a family. I bought this motor two years ago and finally pulled the 3.2 a couple of weeks ago. I sold the 3.2 to the guy that did the top end overhaul on my 3.6 for $15k. On the 3.2, two of the cylinders had poor leak down, due to weak rings. The motor ran great before I pulled it and all the spark plugs looked the same. So I was very surprised about the leak down results. Besides spending $4500 to PMS three years ago to reseal this engine, it has never been apart. This was due to the normal oil leaks around the cam chain housings and other areas. Who knows how many miles were on it. The guy who bought it said the rings are weak and to spray WD40 in the cylinders. Sure enough it brought the leak down, from 30% down to 3% on one cylinder and from 10% down to 5% on the other. He plans on doing a top end overhaul on it and flipping it or putting it in one of his 914's.

I will add pictures and more info as time goes on.
Old Euro 3.2 motor

Thanks for the wisdom, I thought several times about getting one of their motors, but someone years ago convinced me to rebuild mine which I am glad I did.

Will be following...

[ClayPerrine]

Steve,

If you were looking for an option to run hydraulic tappets, my 2.7 uses 993 cam caps and 964 cams with hydro tappets. Would think something similar could be done on a 3.2?

-Dan

No reason why it wouldn't work on a 3.2. It's just a cost issue. A 3.6 has a mass air flow meter (firewire) (versus barn door AFM on a 3.2), twin plug and bigger displacement. All can be done to a 3.2 for a price. I'm also a big fan on stock versus mods. I went from 2.7 to 3.2 and now to 3.6.

Mark @mepstein
Why RS cams unless you want to keep the hydraulic tappets? So much better cam options with solid tappets. RS was the biggest I could go and keep the hydraulic lifters. I'm getting older and don't want to adjust valves if I don't have to. Even though I probably adjust valves every 5-10 years since I only use my car for Cars & Coffee and events. I thought about 3.8, but I am not a fan of slip ins and I did not want to split the case (bigger bucks). 4.0 is a ridiculous amount of money. I was told it requires GT3 crank and ITB's.

I misspoke. It’s not an rs cam. It’s very similar to a GT2 evo cam.

When I did mine, I had the cams reground to 993SS spec. The 993SS cams used solid rockers. I also did the big valves to improve air flow.

When I bought the motor, it was 8 grand for what was definitely a core motor. I had to buy all of the intake and electronics separately off ebay.


And a 4.0L engine does not require a GT3 crank and ITBs. With the proper piston and cylinder set from LN Engineering, you can get 4L out of a 964 motor with the stock crank. You can use the stock intake, but you will leave some horsepower on the table vs ITBs.

[Steve]

Steve,

If you were looking for an option to run hydraulic tappets, my 2.7 uses 993 cam caps and 964 cams with hydro tappets. Would think something similar could be done on a 3.2?

-Dan

No reason why it wouldn't work on a 3.2. It's just a cost issue. A 3.6 has a mass air flow meter (firewire) (versus barn door AFM on a 3.2), twin plug and bigger displacement. All can be done to a 3.2 for a price. I'm also a big fan on stock versus mods. I went from 2.7 to 3.2 and now to 3.6.

Mark @mepstein
Why RS cams unless you want to keep the hydraulic tappets? So much better cam options with solid tappets. RS was the biggest I could go and keep the hydraulic lifters. I'm getting older and don't want to adjust valves if I don't have to. Even though I probably adjust valves every 5-10 years since I only use my car for Cars & Coffee and events. I thought about 3.8, but I am not a fan of slip ins and I did not want to split the case (bigger bucks). 4.0 is a ridiculous amount of money. I was told it requires GT3 crank and ITB's.

I misspoke. It’s not an rs cam. It’s very similar to a GT2 evo cam.

When I did mine, I had the cams reground to 993SS spec. The 993SS cams used solid rockers. I also did the big valves to improve air flow.

When I bought the motor, it was 8 grand for what was definitely a core motor. I had to buy all of the intake and electronics separately off ebay.


And a 4.0L engine does not require a GT3 crank and ITBs. With the proper piston and cylinder set from LN Engineering, you can get 4L out of a 964 motor with the stock crank. You can use the stock intake, but you will leave some horsepower on the table vs ITBs.

Interesting read on 4.0 options and reliability issues on Rennlist. https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/68523...d-engine-3.html
Clay what piston and cylinders did you end up using?

[ClayPerrine]

Steve,

If you were looking for an option to run hydraulic tappets, my 2.7 uses 993 cam caps and 964 cams with hydro tappets. Would think something similar could be done on a 3.2?

-Dan

No reason why it wouldn't work on a 3.2. It's just a cost issue. A 3.6 has a mass air flow meter (firewire) (versus barn door AFM on a 3.2), twin plug and bigger displacement. All can be done to a 3.2 for a price. I'm also a big fan on stock versus mods. I went from 2.7 to 3.2 and now to 3.6.

Mark @mepstein
Why RS cams unless you want to keep the hydraulic tappets? So much better cam options with solid tappets. RS was the biggest I could go and keep the hydraulic lifters. I'm getting older and don't want to adjust valves if I don't have to. Even though I probably adjust valves every 5-10 years since I only use my car for Cars & Coffee and events. I thought about 3.8, but I am not a fan of slip ins and I did not want to split the case (bigger bucks). 4.0 is a ridiculous amount of money. I was told it requires GT3 crank and ITB's.

I misspoke. It’s not an rs cam. It’s very similar to a GT2 evo cam.

When I did mine, I had the cams reground to 993SS spec. The 993SS cams used solid rockers. I also did the big valves to improve air flow.

When I bought the motor, it was 8 grand for what was definitely a core motor. I had to buy all of the intake and electronics separately off ebay.


And a 4.0L engine does not require a GT3 crank and ITBs. With the proper piston and cylinder set from LN Engineering, you can get 4L out of a 964 motor with the stock crank. You can use the stock intake, but you will leave some horsepower on the table vs ITBs.

Interesting read on 4.0 options and reliability issues on Rennlist. https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/68523...d-engine-3.html
Clay what piston and cylinders did you end up using?

LN Engineering Cylinders, JE Coated Pistons, and Pauter rods.

The case had to be split, and the spigots bored to take the cylinders.

Clay

[Lucky9146]

Glad you are starting Steve, will be watching and rooting for you regularly. I know there are a lot of issues to address.

I have that 993 motor of mine in the corner looking for enthusiasm and your thread just could be it!
Thanks for posting this thread!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/white914.jpg)

[Bucci]

Steve,

If you were looking for an option to run hydraulic tappets, my 2.7 uses 993 cam caps and 964 cams with hydro tappets. Would think something similar could be done on a 3.2?

-Dan

No reason why it wouldn't work on a 3.2. It's just a cost issue. A 3.6 has a mass air flow meter (firewire) (versus barn door AFM on a 3.2), twin plug and bigger displacement. All can be done to a 3.2 for a price. I'm also a big fan on stock versus mods. I went from 2.7 to 3.2 and now to 3.6.

Mark @mepstein
Why RS cams unless you want to keep the hydraulic tappets? So much better cam options with solid tappets. RS was the biggest I could go and keep the hydraulic lifters. I'm getting older and don't want to adjust valves if I don't have to. Even though I probably adjust valves every 5-10 years since I only use my car for Cars & Coffee and events. I thought about 3.8, but I am not a fan of slip ins and I did not want to split the case (bigger bucks). 4.0 is a ridiculous amount of money. I was told it requires GT3 crank and ITB's.

I misspoke. It’s not an rs cam. It’s very similar to a GT2 evo cam.

When I did mine, I had the cams reground to 993SS spec. The 993SS cams used solid rockers. I also did the big valves to improve air flow.

When I bought the motor, it was 8 grand for what was definitely a core motor. I had to buy all of the intake and electronics separately off ebay.


And a 4.0L engine does not require a GT3 crank and ITBs. With the proper piston and cylinder set from LN Engineering, you can get 4L out of a 964 motor with the stock crank. You can use the stock intake, but you will leave some horsepower on the table vs ITBs.

Clay, I had to do a rebuild on my stock 3.2 probably 15 years ago. I was zipping down the 57 freeway at about 120 mph. I was driving the motor pretty hard as I normally would. I shifted from 4th to 5th gear on the down down grade, and the motor made a very odd clunk sound after my shift..! I turned off the motor and coasted it into the gas station at the Temple Avenue off ramp. I tried turning the motor over after that point, and it would not spin or even start.. I called a flatbed tow truck and took it back to the shop. I then started the motor again, and it made horrific, gnarly, grinding noise..
Turns out, I actually broke my crank, and the motor was still running, almost sawing through the crankshaft bearing right over a journal in the case.

I ended up rebuilding the motor with a brand new crank from Porsche and I installed 993 Evo/ SS cams, super high lift and very lumpy sounding at idle. At RPM it’s gobbling up the air and has a very high RPM pull or power band. At about 5000+ RPM it is actually pulling harder at the top end which is mind blowing. I would definitely use these cams again, super impressive for a stock injection, set up.