2.0L rebuild Options

[Zaffer]

I know this subject has been beaten to death, but just trying to look for the most current information on parts as I know quality changes over time.

I am no longer doing a Subaru six conversion to my 914 as I will keep the T4. I have 2, one 2.0L and one 1.8L. My car is a factory ‘75 2.0L. I will run factory FI and am not interested in Megasquirt, carbs, or any other aftermarket FI, at least for now. The 2.0L I’m using I bought from George Hussey in 2009 “in running condition”, but it’s been sitting on my engine stand since.

I am going to rebuild my 2.0L and bump it up to a 2056, but have some (a lot of) questions:

Can I use the factory FI for a 2270? I don’t think so, IIRC, but want to make sure.

I have the 1.8L that I could make a 1911, but is it any better than a 2056? Why or why not?

What P&C’s should I use? I know the main ones are AA and KB. I’m looking at the Biral AA’s at the moment.

Can I use a more aggressive cam with factory FI?

What valve springs should I use and is there a better setup?

My initial plan is as follows:
- Install new P&C’s
- Balance the crankshaft, rods, and pistons
- Rebuild the heads: replace/upgrade the valve springs, replace the valve guides, inspect and replace/upgrade(?) valves
- Either use factory cam or upgrade cam, if possible with factory FI.
- Install a larger oil pump, if still available.

While I want to make some improvements with the engine, I am not going to spend 10K+ doing so. This car will be a nice weather driver and I do not plan on doing any track events or autoX’s with it. I want to make the engine nice and “reliable”, but I don’t need new heads, Nickies, etc. I am rebuilding the engine myself but using a really good local machine shop as well. I do not need to get every Nth of power from the engine, but would like to reasonably improve on it without going crazy.

Any advice on what to, and not to, do is welcome and I realize I’m going to get multiple different answers.

As for the car itself, it’ll remain mostly stock with Factory 4-lug Fuchs, factory brakes, etc.

Thanks!

[technicalninja]

First thing is to disassemble what you have and make decisions from there.

Heads cracked? (common on 2.0). You will need expensive repairs or new heads.

If you're planning on re-using the D-jet cams are critical. You can't go big here.

I never "make a list" until the original engine is in individual pieces and I know what is re-usable.

The Biral cylinders caught my eye as well. Porsche tried it once and even they found it difficult to adhere the aluminum to the ferrous liner.
Don't expect the Chinese to do a better job!

Unless it says "made in Germany" it's made in China. I don't use Chinese parts if I can avoid them.

Most of the OG members don't use Biral.

In fact. there is enough troubles and complaints with the aftermarket parts (everything including the bearings) that I am planning on using the original Mahle cylinder and having them bored out to 96mm which is actually more expensive that just buying new.

Re-boring the old allows you to choose your P-C clearances as well. You need a GOOD machine shop for this.

You should tear your stuff down, inspect it properly, and do a BUNCH of research before you start buying parts...

[Geezer914]

I rebuilt my 2.0 to 2056 using AA biral cylinders and pistons. Web 9550 cam and Hamm 1.8 cylinder heads, 9:1 cr. Used a 50mm Vanagon throttle body and richened up the Ljet FI. The engine runs cool with the biral cylinders and pulls strong.

[Zaffer]

Well, after doing more research, I’m reminded of why I was considering the Subie conversion in the first place. Based on everything, I’m going to go that route and sell my 2.0L, factory FI, and everything else T4 engine related. I now just need to go through all of my boxes and figure out what all I have.

[Superhawk996]

No way a subie conversion is simpler than a basic T4 rebuild. Just sayin’. All depends on what you really want.

[mepstein]

No way a subie conversion is simpler than a basic T4 rebuild. Just sayin’. All depends on what you really want.

I agree. No matter how cheap you obtain the engine, you will spend $10k on parts to do the conversion.

[Superhawk996]

I’ll add - a 1911 is plenty of fun especially with a cam and carbs. Cheap to build since you avoid the potential cost issues of the 2.0l heads. Even if you go 1911 and Stock FI, it is still a fun engine, just leaves a little HP on the table by not being able to use a more aggressive cam profile.

Stay 2056 or 1911 and a rebuild is very affordable. I drove a 1911, for years and years when I rebuilt my 1st 1.7L. Very reliable.

Start going down the path of big bore and strokers and costs escalate very quickly. Likewise reliability of those types of engines diminishes quickly unless the build is done to a high standard including Nickies which tank the budget aspect.

[Zaffer]

No way a subie conversion is simpler than a basic T4 rebuild. Just sayin’. All depends on what you really want.

I agree. No matter how cheap you obtain the engine, you will spend $10k on parts to do the conversion.

Nah, the parts really aren’t that expensive to do the conversion, about 3-5k in parts, with the biggest unknown being the donor vehicle(s).

[Zaffer]

I’ll add - a 1911 is plenty of fun especially with a cam and carbs. Cheap to build since you avoid the potential cost issues of the 2.0l heads. Even if you go 1911 and Stock FI, it is still a fun engine, just leaves a little HP on the table by not being able to use a more aggressive cam profile.

Stay 2056 or 1911 and a rebuild is very affordable. I drove a 1911, for years and years when I rebuilt my 1st 1.7L. Very reliable.

Start going down the path of big bore and strokers and costs escalate very quickly. Likewise reliability of those types of engines diminishes quickly unless the build is done to a high standard including Nickies which tank the budget aspect.

I’m definitely not going down the path of big bore/striker engines because, yes, it does get expensive fast!

What all is in the 1911 build?

If I keep the T4, I’m planning on keeping the factory FI, which I know limits the size and cam, but that’s what I would want to do. Can the FI from the 2.0L be used on the 1911? I do have a spare 1.8L.

I guess first thing to do would be to have the heads checked and then decide: if they’re good, stick with the T4; if bad, then consider the conversion.

My problem is I want more power, but I like the idea of keeping the T4. However, I’m not spending 10K on an uber nice T4 for 120hp. What would a “basic” rebuild be, with me doing the labor side, besides machine work? Prices are all over he place so looking for experience.

[Superhawk996]

Don’t make like more complicated by creating T4 Frankenbuilds by mixing and matching FI.

Rebuild a 1.8 to 1911 (66 x 96) use 1.8L FI which will fit 1.8L heads.

Rebuild 2.0l to 2056 (71 x 96) use 2.0L FI that fits 3 stud 2.0L heads.

The factory FI is limiting because it cannot accommodate large changes in volumetric efficiency that come with increases in bore, stroke, and cam. It can handle the minor displacement change. It cannot handle much of a cam change.

The 2.0L is basically a factory stroker that added 5mm stroke. The increased HP of the 2.0l doesn’t come from some sort of magic 2.0l FI, it comes from the added stroke and the 2.0l heads that had better flow and a better spark plug orientation for a better burn.

I’m going to give you my opinion on HP. It doesn’t matter. (Worth what you paid).

Especially in a day and age of EV’s. Even with a Subie it will still be “slow”. Your average daily driver now can do 0-60 very close to what a 930 used to be.

These cars were never about HP. They were about light weight and superb handling. The ability to carry momentum in turns.

The stock 914 is air cooled and has a very low polar moment of inertia as a result of centralized engine mass. By the time you’ve added the extra weight and plumbing of a subie and compromised the centralized mass with a radiator, much of what defined the original 914 is lost. After all that work to do a conversion, you still don’t have a “fast” car by modern standards. The 2021 Toyota Camry was 0-60 in about 6 seconds. Let that sink in. These are facts and physics.

A good driver in a 100 Hp car can out drive an average driver in the same car with 130 HP on track or in the twisties. A professional driver in 100 hp will make a mockery of an average driver with 200 or more HP. You get the point.

If you truly feel big horsepower is what you want, the T4 isn’t for you. If you just want to do smoky burnouts - put a T4 rebuild out of your mind. If you just want a more modern power plant, move forward on a conversion with zero regret.

[Superhawk996]

With respect to price for basic T4 rebuild:

New parts:
AA pistons and cylinders (cast iron cyclinders)
Cam and lifters, cam gear.
Crank bearings
Rod bearings / bushing - available rebuilt online ready to use
Cam bearings
Seal kit.

Rework / reuse :
Heads / valve job
Resize rods
Reuse crank - grind undersize if necessary

As Ninja said, inspect what you have. If you end up needing new heads that will increase costs drastically.

The rest is Machine work assuming your crank, and rods aren’t trashed.

[Zaffer]

With respect to price for basic T4 rebuild:

New parts:
AA pistons and cylinders (cast iron cyclinders)
Cam and lifters, cam gear.
Crank bearings
Cam bearings
Seal kit.

Rework / reuse :
Heads / valve job
Resize rods
Reuse crank

As Ninja said, inspect what you have. If you end up needing new heads that will increase costs drastically.

The rest is Machine work assuming your crank, and rods aren’t trashed.

This is what I was looking for! The more research and questions I ask about rebuilding to a 2056, the more varied answers I get. I realize boring the Mahle cylinders and then getting pistons to fit is ideal, but there is a cost, like everything. I was originally looking at doing a "correct" rebuild, but as I was looking more into it cost wise, it seemed like I was going to spend 5k-8k in parts and machine work just to attain a few extra HP/TQ and I could do a 6-cyl. Subaru conversion for around the same amount, which would put me at around 220-240HP, plus I would have a flat six in it. Then I started thinking about how I was going to be cutting up my body, possibly reducing the structural integrity, having to add reinforcements, etc. and I'm not sure I really want to do that.

HP isn't really a big deal to me as I have other cars that can do more for less if I want to go that route, I just thought it might be fun to have a 914 with more power. I know it's not going to win any drag races and do burn outs and what not and that's not a concern of mine. It's been awhile since I've driven a 914, especially on back roads (read 22 years), so I don't remember what they're like. Straight line is fun, but I enjoy twisting backroads WAY more!

Thanks for the more realistic look at the rebuild as this is what I had in mind and it seems WAY more attainable than other builds. I'm also glad to see that AA P&C's are decent. Here's what my build list would entail:

- AA P&C's (possibly balanced)
- Re-use rods (possibly balanced)
- Have crankshaft checked (possibly balanced)
- Have case checked (any suggestions?)
- New bearing ans seals
- New lifters
- New valve springs
- Why a new cam and gear?

Have cylinder heads checked before anything else is done/ordered

What do you mean with "Resizing the rods"?

I'm used to water cooled engines and have rebuilt a few with great success, but this will be my first air cooled engine, which I've heard are easier. I own a Euro repair shop, but we focus on newer vehicles (OBDII) and a smattering of older vehicles. I do own manuals and engine books for the 914's/flat 4's, which I will be utilizing.

Thanks you!

[Superhawk996]

Resized rods are simply returning OEM rods to spec for journal diameter and small end bushing bore. I won’t detail the machine shop work to do so but they can be purchased at EMW for $150 and I don’t even see a core charge.

By asking the question of what is resizing - that suggests you want to watch the Raby video and get the Tom Wilson How to rebuild your VW book. In that book it covers exactly what resizing is and how and why it’s done.

The alternate is buy new H-beam or I-beam lightweight rods … but now we aren’t taking basic rebuild anymore.

I commend you for asking. There is no shame in asking questions !! But get that video and a review of the Wilson book under your belt before proceeding if you go the T4 route.

When I was in my 20s and my 1.7l needed bearings, the Wilson book walked me through my 1st rebuild with nothing more than basic hand tools (pay machine shop to measure things). That 1.7l rebuilt to 1911 took me about 100,000 miles before that car was totaled (not by me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ). That book is priceless in my opinion but only costs about $25.



Note: T4 case is aluminum unlike Bug T1 magnesium case. Unless abused the T4 case usually doesn’t need to be line bored and can be reused basically as-is with a thorough cleaning. A local machinist can measure and verify crank bearing notes are within spec and usable. Again - pay machine shop for expertise and avoidance of buying expensive measuring tools.

[Zaffer]

Resized rods are simply returning OEM rods to spec for journal diameter and small end bushing bore. I won’t detail the machine shop work to do so but they can be purchased at EMW for $150 and I don’t even see a core charge.

By asking the question of what is resizing - that suggests you want to watch the Raby video and get the Tom Wilson How to rebuild your VW book. In that book it covers exactly what resizing is and how and why it’s done.

The alternate is buy new H-beam or I-beam lightweight rods … but now we aren’t taking basic rebuild anymore.

I commend you for asking. There is no shame in asking questions !! But get that video and a review of the Wilson book under your belt before proceeding if you go the T4 route.

When I was in my 20s and my 1.7l needed bearings, the Wilson book walked me through my 1st rebuild with nothing more than basic hand tools (pay machine shop to measure things). That 1.7l rebuilt to 1911 took me about 100,000 miles before that car was totaled (not by me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ). That book is priceless in my opinion but only costs about $25.

That’s the book I have. I bought it back in my teens when I had a Karmann Ghia, but ended up never needing it, until now.

I appreciate the advice and I’m sure I’ll have more questions.

It’s funny how I’ve been in this business for over 20 years and didn’t do my first engine rebuild until 3 years ago in my e46. I enjoy engine rebuilding, but I want to make sure I get it right with this engine.

I plan on having everything checked out at the machine shop and go from there. I’ve considered the lighter component route, but with everything else I need to do to the car, I don’t want to get to crazy with it. I remember liking the 2056 that was in my car when I first bought it in ‘99, which is why I want to go back to that. I also liked the factory FI, especially with so few 914’s running it!

[technicalninja]

"I own a Euro repair shop."
"New lifters"
"Why a new cam and gear?"

These statements don't go together...

Anytime you replace one side of a scuff friction surface you should replace the other as the old will trash the new. This includes water cooled stuff.
Camshafts/lifters are almost always replaced together.

Only exception is SOB/SUB (shim over/under bucket) systems in my book.

If you're a shop owner either you should know this stuff OR know someone who does...

You need a "gearhead" to do this type of work. Someone who will continue to do this shit when money is no longer an issue.
If I win the Lottery, I will NOT stop wrenching.
I will stop wrenching on "Other People's Cars".

Being "professional" does not mean "automatically" better.

I know more amateur (not paid by a customer) gearheads than professional ones...

Here's a tip on T4s.

Porsche/VW made the internals heavier than anything else.
I can remove nearly 4 lbs. of reciprocating mass with just changing pistons and rods.
This number is the greatest amount I will have ever removed from an ICE.

I seldom have rods "resized" anymore. I'm usually replacing with lighter H-beams that are also a bunch stronger. Because of years of experience and poor-quality control I do have the brand-new H-beams inspected by both me and a machinist friend.

I know what I'm doing but I know others who are my equal and having two sets of eyes looking at something is NEVER a bad idea.

Now, the cost per horsepower is abysmal for a T4. You will spend more $ per HP than any other build you have done.

I'm a HUGE believer in upgrading the power delivery system to something more modern.

Looks like 175hp in a T4 will have a similar cost as putting a blown subbie in the 914.
So, 175 or 300+ and the T4 is topped out. The subbie is just starting to howl and lots of subbie guys exceed 500hp with that drive train.

The motor I'm planning for my big car has 250lbs ft + over a 4K range with 335hp for its "stock" HP limit. I can have as many of these as I want delivered to my shop for 2K a piece. This engine needs 85 octane so you can fuel it with crap fuel.
It will cost 10K+ to install it with a Boxster 6 speed but it will be VERY, VERY fast.
I should be able to hunt brand new Corvettes.
Maybe not ZR1s but you get the idea.
That 6 second Camary will not have a chance...


I'm just the opposite of SuperHawk...
The decline of the machine shops makes the good ones expensive and booked out for months.
If you're serious about continuing to build motors having you own tools and methods is critical.
In 40 years of wrenching, I've found EXACTLY two machine shops that were worth a shit, and I've tried 20+.
Decent measuring tools have also gotten far more available and affordable over than last 4 decades.

[Zaffer]

"I own a Euro repair shop."
"New lifters"
"Why a new cam and gear?"

These statements don't go together...

Anytime you replace one side of a scuff friction surface you should replace the other as the old will trash the new. This includes water cooled stuff.
Camshafts/lifters are almost always replaced together.

Only exception is SOB/SUB (shim over/under bucket) systems in my book.

If you're a shop owner either you should know this stuff OR know someone who does...

You need a "gearhead" to do this type of work. Someone who will continue to do this shit when money is no longer an issue.
If I win the Lottery, I will NOT stop wrenching.
I will stop wrenching on "Other People's Cars".

Being "professional" does not mean "automatically" better.

I know more amateur (not paid by a customer) gearheads than professional ones...

While I can appreciate the criticisms of what I should know and who I surround myself with, this is not why I posted. I posted to find out information on a vehicle I don't know well, hence why I put in there that my shop focuses on OBDII vehicles. I've read a lot on these engines and a fair amount of conflicting information or different opinions on them.

I am fully aware that there are non-professionals out there that know more, though usually in one particular area, and good mechanical guys that don't know much about the newer vehicle systems (CANBUS, modules, etc.). If I don't know something, I seek out the information, hence why I am here.

As for rebuilding, I've never had to do it or had the opportunity to do it until a few years ago. Life circumstance. I'm glad you have had the opportunity to do so, but please don't criticize me for what I do and don't know and it's unfortunate on some of the assumptions you have made about me.

That being said, I do appreciate the rest of your response and the information you provided. I generally do like more modern power trains, and this is why I was debating about doing the Subaru conversion and have been going back and forth on this. My main reservation is cutting into the body for the coolant lines and evacuation ducting for the radiator.

I also do agree with you that if I were to win the lottery, I would keep working on my own vehicles as I enjoy the work, but I would stop working on other people's cars. This is something I truly enjoy, but have not been able to fully get into due to life and finances, hence my lack of knowledge in some areas as it's impossible to know everything about vehicles. I am constantly learning.

[technicalninja]

I'm a bit of a take no prisoners type of guy. Sorry if I offended.

I've been wrenching since the birth of the check engine light.

OBD2 was 15 years in the future.

If you don't have an internal motor gearhead friend finding one (who knows his shit!) is the VERY QUICKEST way to gain knowledge yourself.

I got INSANELY lucky as a starting tech to hit 3 special things...

I found a really good machine shop that specialized in import ONLY way back in the early 80s. Their "specialty" was air-cooled VW. They still exist today.
https://www.automotivemachine.com/
I met Eric when he was 4 years old. He followed in his father Tom's footprints.

I worked for Corky Bell at Cartech Turbo Systems as one of my first jobs. I was a "lot lizard" and did everything everyone else did not want too.
My first "wrenching" job was in a shop were everyone else was Jedi master level. I didn't know how lucky it was to see "excellence" first.

Later I worked for Bill Sours at Passport Engines as the warranty tech. I had 18 months of "finding the root cause" of engine failures for warranty claim purposes.

I've seen SOO many ways to get it wrong.
That completely destroyed my faith in most shops.
I once found a set of missing Corvette keys embedded in a Volvo piston...
Bill was an engine master and lover of Italian cars. He showed me the way you have to approach work on Italians and exotics...

It was my friends and work mates that had the greatest effect on how quickly I picked this crap up.

Now, years ago rebuilding both engines and transmissions were a common job, and they are far more reliable today.
Back then 100K engine life was great. Today the figure is 300K.
I can see how a guy might not have that much exposure, especially if he's been working at a dealership who commonly are simple unit replacers now.

You will find most "gearheads" are getting old. I'm 59...

Sorry if I came off too strong.

Getting good mentors early was the single greatest catalyst for me!

Reading back I can see how it looks like I was critical of you as you are a professional.

I was not. I was stating how an enthusiast could be a good mentor, you don't have to earn your living at this to be truly excellent.

I was trying to suggest sources for your mental toolbox. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ninja.gif)

[Zaffer]

Not a problem and I appreciate the explanation. I didn’t really have anyone around me growing up that had the love of cars that I have. My dad did, but he didn’t have any training and was a self taught hobbyist. I worked for a brilliant Porsche mechanic early in my career, but he was a little unstable mentally and stressed me out too much, plus I moved with my then-girlfriend, now-wife, for college and got out of the business for a little bit. I got back into it by getting a job at G&W Motorsports, but the time commitment was not what I wanted as it also meant living away from my now-wife, which was more important to me. After that, we moved out of the country for a few years while my wife went to Vet school and got back into it at a Euro shop in Raleigh, NC. I loved working there and was learning A LOT, especially how to rebuild air cooled 911 engines, but we were there for a year as my wife was doing her clinical year at NC State, then decided to move back to Richmond. I got a job at Marcus Motorsports, but it was just me and doing self-teaching. We didn’t rebuild anything in-house, so no real learning opportunity. I did do fly-in track support for Autometrics for a few years, but got out when I had my first kid, at which point I went to work at BMW for a few years. We then moved, and I love been at independents ever since until I started h thy is shop 5 years ago.

No one wants to rebuild engines, they just want to go the used route. Now that im at a place where I can financially and physically do these things, I’m getting more into it on my own stuff so that way if I screw something up or make a mistake, it only affects me. I do eventually want to move into possible customer work, but want to hone my skills and knowledge more.

Not many people around me do this sort of thing, but the machine shop I use seems really good and he and I sit around and talk shop whenever I’m there as it’s fascinating and he is a wealth of knowledge. He’s trying to get me to come work for him so he can hand off the business, but I’m busy enough with what I have now.

I know I’m late to the game with some of this stuff, but it’s me over too late and I’m utilizing the wealth of knowledge here and elsewhere to gain more personal knowledge and learn the right way to do things.

I appreciate everything and thanks!

[Superhawk996]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) motorsports crew work is largely a young man’s game that doesn’t jive well with a stable home life. Good memories but don’t miss it!

[Zaffer]

I don’t miss the work or the all-nighters swapping an engine and then sleeping in one of the cars because there not enough time to go back to the hotel! It was fun, but I don’t miss it. Now if I go to the track, it’s either as a spectator or a participant.

I’ll start tearing my engine down this weekend. I went out to is evening and it still rotates nice and smooth and is in spec with the flywheel torqued. I just worry the cylinder walls are a little rusty on the bottom from the engine sitting. I had the heads off 11 years ago to inspect and there was a slight bit of surface rust on two of the cylinders, but it cleaned up easily. That being said, if I’m going through all of the trouble of overhauling the car, rebuilding the engine would probably be a good idea from sitting so long. Plus, I would like a 2056 and I need to check the heads.

Are the basic AA heads worth a damn? The price isn’t bad, but seems a little low, IMO.