2.0L rebuild Options

[Highland]

I’ll add - a 1911 is plenty of fun especially with a cam and carbs. Cheap to build since you avoid the potential cost issues of the 2.0l heads. Even if you go 1911 and Stock FI, it is still a fun engine, just leaves a little HP on the table by not being able to use a more aggressive cam profile.

Stay 2056 or 1911 and a rebuild is very affordable. I drove a 1911, for years and years when I rebuilt my 1st 1.7L. Very reliable.

Start going down the path of big bore and strokers and costs escalate very quickly. Likewise reliability of those types of engines diminishes quickly unless the build is done to a high standard including Nickies which tank the budget aspect.

Has anyone every built a 1911 with 2.0L heads? Just curious how much of a difference the relocated spark plug actually makes.

The original 2L is only 60cc greater than a 1911. Do the 1911's out there make about 100hp like the stock flat top piston 2L.

[technicalninja]

...but the machine shop I use seems really good and he and I sit around and talk shop whenever I’m there as it’s fascinating and he is a wealth of knowledge. He’s trying to get me to come work for him so he can hand off the business, but I’m busy enough with what I have now.

You have a guru already!

What you choose to do with him is up to you...

He ALREADY likes to talk! You should listen.

Machine shops are a dying breed.
You should Vulcan Mind Meld him if you can.
Take donuts, kolaches, pizza...
Find out what he likes.

Then ask to be involved...

He'll probably like showing stuff to a younger guy.

Even if you don't make a living at motor work seeing it done properly is advantageous.

Have you been working as a "line" tech at the dealerships and the indies?

What was your specialty?

Doing internal engine work on stock "appliance" cars is NOT something I do any longer.
I just change "units" myself on those as well.

The motor work I do is performance only.

If I'm taking it apart, I'm modding it...

Now, how I earn my bread and butter is specializing in automotive HVAC systems.
https://granburyautoac.com/

AC work has always been GRAVY at any of the dealerships I worked at...

I specialized in the cleanest, least liability, best paying work of all!

[technicalninja]

Are the basic AA heads worth a damn? The price isn’t bad, but seems a little low, IMO.

They are sort of "the only game in town" and many use them. If I build a 2L I'll get a pair as well.

If you look on AA you can find bare castings.

The reason these are available is the fact that the serious folks use nothing but the casting...

LN and Raby do EVERYTHING in house including the valve guide bores and seats.

I believe they weld the plug holes up and re-position the plug as well.

So, the new heads are "as good as are available" but can be improved on...

[Zaffer]

I mainly asking in case one or both heads are cracked.

My plan today was to bring my 914 back home from my shops storage unit and start breaking down the engine, but I rolled my ankle this morning getting out of the truck to hook up the trailer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) Maybe tomorrow or later this weekend…..

[Jack Standz]

Sorry to hear about your ankle. Hope you heal up quickly and fully.

The current AA Pistons 2 liter cylinder heads have the 2 liter cylinder chambers and plug locations:

https://aapistons.com/products/aa-bare-2-0l...stud-round-port

The older ones were often welded up and had the spark plug locations relocated to make proper 2 liter heads?

[technicalninja]

I believe that the big guys (Raby/LN) are still modifying the new stuff.

Along with a "relocation" they have been installing 12mm plugs instead of 14s...

Wouldn't surprise me if they have played with 10mm plugs...

10mm plugs are tiny!


I know this from stuff I've found searching, not personal experience!


Anyone have LN or Raby heads from the last 5 years?

I'd appreciate a verification.

[r_towle]

I’m going to offer an idea.
Take the 2.0 liter on the stand, replace all rubber seals
Put tin back on
Install it
Get the FI working
Drive the car, sort out that…enjoy the summer

Put the other motor on the stand
Think about it for a bit

[VaccaRabite]

I’m going to offer an idea.
Take the 2.0 liter on the stand, replace all rubber seals
Put tin back on
Install it
Get the FI working
Drive the car, sort out that…enjoy the summer

Put the other motor on the stand
Think about it for a bit

This is the right answer.

Get a motor in the car as quickly as possible and drive the car.

When the car is driving, THEN go build the "real" motor. But still be able to enjoy the car.

In my car, I have had a 2056 (that I drove the piss out of) and now have a 2258 that I put in last year. The bigger motor got built (not by me this time) over 18 months. I put about 4000 miles on my car while the bigger motor was being built.

If you have 2 motors, get one moving as quickly and cheaply as possible. Drive the car and spend the time and effort getting the second motor right.

For the motor on the stand - seals. Valves (so easy with the engine out). Send it. The only reason NOT to do this is major mechanical damage.

For the motor in the car - build it. A 1911 is a fun motor. Put new heads on for sure. Or find a cheap to free 2.0 crank and make is 2056. It is a SIMPLE build until you start adding stroke past the stock ratios.

The only thing I don't really get on board with anymore is using the stock FI for non-stock builds. There are so many fantastic EFI systems out there that don't care about your cam choice, don't care about your compression ratio, and don't use archaic mechanical "sensors" to run the engine. My 2056 was making 127hp at the rear wheels. Most make about that at the crank using the stock EFI. But I didn't hamstring myself using 50 year old fuel injection - I used relatively modern (at the time) Microsquirt injection, while retaining 1.8 L-jet plenum, airbox and intake runners. Today there are so many other, better choices.

And, you can build any motor to any displacement. All of my motors were built of 1.7 cases. My 2056 that I drove for about a decade started life as a 1700 Bus motor. So what? Build it to what you want.

Finally, you can do a subi swap for about the same money as a big TIV. You will have a LOT more power. It will fundamentally change the car. I've only driven one swap car - a 400HP WRX swapped 914. Was it fun - oh yeah. It was a rocket ship. And in the back of my mind I was reminded that the car was trying to kill me if I did not stay on top of it. I'm sure you get used to that much power on tap pretty quickly, but it did not feel like driving a 914 anymore. It really does depend on what you want. That much power in my WRX felt normal, my daily driver. In a 914 it felt like I was dueling. Fun, but definite danger. Granted, this car was bonkers. You can do a much more pedestrian Subi swap.... but why?

Zach

[ctc911ctc]

Best Laugh of my Week! Well Done!




I've been wrenching since the birth of the check engine light.

[Superhawk996]

Finally, you can do a subi swap for about the same money as a big TIV. You will have a LOT more power. It will fundamentally change the car. I've only driven one swap car - a 400HP WRX swapped 914. Was it fun - oh yeah. It was a rocket ship. And in the back of my mind I was reminded that the car was trying to kill me if I did not stay on top of it. I'm sure you get used to that much power on tap pretty quickly, but it did not feel like driving a 914 anymore. It really does depend on what you want. That much power in my WRX felt normal, my daily driver. In a 914 it felt like I was dueling. Fun, but definite danger. Granted, this car was bonkers. You can do a much more pedestrian Subi swap.... but why?

Zach

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

This summary ought to be nailed.

In this day and age where figures like 400 HP, 600 HP, even 1000 HP is tossed around with so much abandon it’s refreshing to see the truth be told.

What most people don’t realize is that many of these modern cars torque limit in 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd gear. That in turn is backed up by ABS, Traction Control, and ESC to keep the car under control in the hands of an average or even incompetent driver.

Then there is a chassis that is 3-5 times stiffer than a 914 (even with a cage). AWD to ground that horsepower, tires and brakes capable of dealing with that HP. The list goes on.

Consider the Porsche 908 race cars had about 350 HP, had a better chassis than a 914, and took a professional driver with serous driving skill to tap its potential. Ask yourself and be honest - how many of us have the skill to drive a car like that? On the street with trees, ditches, and no runoff?

I’ve been around lots of early to late 90s Vipers, 400 HP, no driver aids. Can’t tell you how many of those I’ve seen wrecked over the years by people that thought they could handle 400 HP. Again, that car has a stiffer chassis and far more tire than you can put under a 914 - even with GT flares.

Rant over.

Well done Zach! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[Geezer914]

The 914 is known for its handling. If you want it to be a muscle car, get a Mustang or Camero. It's either going to be quick going in a straight line or hug the curves like it's on rails. Myself, I like the second option. I built an ERA Cobra 289 FIA with a 302 stroked to 331 cu.in. with Weber's putting out 400 HP. I would be up to 120 mph in the blink of an eye. I ended up selling it and bought the 914. It's a lot more fun driving the 914.

[Zaffer]

I’m going to offer an idea.
Take the 2.0 liter on the stand, replace all rubber seals
Put tin back on
Install it
Get the FI working
Drive the car, sort out that…enjoy the summer

Put the other motor on the stand
Think about it for a bit

This is the right answer.

Get a motor in the car as quickly as possible and drive the car.

When the car is driving, THEN go build the "real" motor. But still be able to enjoy the car.

In my car, I have had a 2056 (that I drove the piss out of) and now have a 2258 that I put in last year. The bigger motor got built (not by me this time) over 18 months. I put about 4000 miles on my car while the bigger motor was being built.

If you have 2 motors, get one moving as quickly and cheaply as possible. Drive the car and spend the time and effort getting the second motor right.

For the motor on the stand - seals. Valves (so easy with the engine out). Send it. The only reason NOT to do this is major mechanical damage.

For the motor in the car - build it. A 1911 is a fun motor. Put new heads on for sure. Or find a cheap to free 2.0 crank and make is 2056. It is a SIMPLE build until you start adding stroke past the stock ratios.

The only thing I don't really get on board with anymore is using the stock FI for non-stock builds. There are so many fantastic EFI systems out there that don't care about your cam choice, don't care about your compression ratio, and don't use archaic mechanical "sensors" to run the engine. My 2056 was making 127hp at the rear wheels. Most make about that at the crank using the stock EFI. But I didn't hamstring myself using 50 year old fuel injection - I used relatively modern (at the time) Microsquirt injection, while retaining 1.8 L-jet plenum, airbox and intake runners. Today there are so many other, better choices.

And, you can build any motor to any displacement. All of my motors were built of 1.7 cases. My 2056 that I drove for about a decade started life as a 1700 Bus motor. So what? Build it to what you want.

Finally, you can do a subi swap for about the same money as a big TIV. You will have a LOT more power. It will fundamentally change the car. I've only driven one swap car - a 400HP WRX swapped 914. Was it fun - oh yeah. It was a rocket ship. And in the back of my mind I was reminded that the car was trying to kill me if I did not stay on top of it. I'm sure you get used to that much power on tap pretty quickly, but it did not feel like driving a 914 anymore. It really does depend on what you want. That much power in my WRX felt normal, my daily driver. In a 914 it felt like I was dueling. Fun, but definite danger. Granted, this car was bonkers. You can do a much more pedestrian Subi swap.... but why?
Zach

I’ve thought about going the route of just getting the engine on the stand in the car to evaluate and drive the car for the year, but there is a rust area that I have attached that is a little concerning. I cut it out and it’s not as bad as I thought, but I’d still replace the long. I had thought about just patching it for this year then doing the body work this winter, but need to reassess.



As for the other engine, it’s just a 1.8L long block with no fuel system. I’ve thought about an aftermarket FI system, but not sure what works well with this car using the factory intake manifold. I would like to have multiple working engines, and I know the 1.8L does work. I’m not looking for huge power or a hot rod T4, just want something with a little more than factory power.

Concerning the bigger power, I was mainly looking to have a 6 in the car with good power and TQ, and was not looking to do anything to it, but after A LOT of back and forth, have settled on keeping the T4. If I get the itch down the road, I’ll probably just buy a converted car.

[technicalninja]

Why are you limiting yourself with the factory intake?

If you're trying to stay "stock" you're stuck with the factory FI.

This can be the "choke" point in performance.

Do you have a completely sorted, perfectly running FI system?

If not, I'd look to some of the D-jet threads regarding the troubles many have trying to solve 50-year-old problems. It often takes a new wiring harness!

If I had both motors (and they were good) I'd probably install the 1.8 and provision it with IDFs (40s).
You should get some experience with the intricacies of ITB carburetor tuning if you don't have any experience yet.

I'd build the 2.0 and it would start on the exact same carbs (maybe different venturis and jets).

I'd then come up with an aftermarket FI using a modern digital ECU.

IDF clones with injector bosses are already available.

Nice ones https://www.jenvey.co.uk/throttle-bodies-an...odies-idf-style

Lots of cheap Chinese stuff on E-bay as well...

This will allow you to re-use everything but the carbs on the IDF set up.
This is the path that MOST of the aftermarket FI stuff takes anyways regarding T4s.
It is not the ultimate path IMO.
It is a big step in the right direction in my book.

If I was contemplating being "European Performance Shop" these skills (understanding aftermarket carb provisioning and having the ability to retro fit modern FI onto older cars) should be lucrative in the future IMO.

As old school FI parts get rarer (carb parts are getting scarce as well) this will be the most common upgrade path and although there are FI specialist shops, most are car specific (IE "The Bug Shop" just does air-cooled VW stuff).

A specialist in "applying modern FI to any old car" might be a good path to take.
5 years from now I'd expect to have a chassis dyno and be the shop that everyone suggests for FI work.
"Just take it to Zaffer's" would be what I was shooting for...

These tips are not specific to 914s.

I'm suggesting skills that might help a young tech in the next 20 years.

I'm tuning YOU...

A T4 in a 914 is simple, no VVT, no variable intake path, no cat (most), and easy to work on.
It is an EXCELLENT choice as a "training project".

Now, if you're going to do performance work you need to be damn careful about what you do stuff on for customers. If you stay "non-emissions" cars or track cars only you're "safer" but...
If the EPA comes knocking, they will crime scene tape up your shop, denying you entrance, while they do their "investigation" which will probably take some time...

Can you afford NOT having access to your shop for 6 weeks or more?

There was more than a single reason for specializing in AC for me but AVOIDING an EPA audit was one of the BIG ones...
The only rule I have to be careful of is "Never Release Refrigerant" which is pretty easy to follow.

Even on refrigerant release there exists a "bounty".
If you turn someone in who is a negligent releaser you can make 10K!
This is an ASS KICKER for junk yards...
Don't have a recycling machine at a junk yard?
EPA might fine you 100K+!
Especially if a pissed off past employee turns you in for the money...

Now, just having a broken recycle machine can save your ass. Most of the investigating officers don't know jack shit and don't have a snowball's chance of operating a machine themselves.
This is handy when you have a trashed machine.
There's a good chance a junkyard will buy it.

If you're already doing AC work now, make sure to have a recycle machine (even a broken one) in your shop now. You also need to get 609 certified but that is STUPID easy.
The original certification was the back page of a "rules" pamphlet. All the answers were in the booklet.
If you could READ you could pass...

[Superhawk996]

As for the other engine, it’s just a 1.8L long block with no fuel system. I’ve thought about an aftermarket FI system, but not sure what works well with this car using the factory intake manifold.

As stated earlier - microsquirt can be used with any of the OEM intakes. If you’re already competent in OBD, CAN, and modules, microsquirt is within the realm of the possible.

Check out the DubShop TBI FI kit if you want something a bit more turn key and want to exchange money instead of time building your own FI from parts, creating wiring, etc.

In either instance, you’ll still have to tune it. However each of these opens up the option to use whatever cam you want, raised compression ratios, and the ability to make about 20 - 30% more power than stock.

Don’t underestimate how significant a 20% bump in power is on a lightweight car.

[technicalninja]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

The stock FI is the single most limiting "system" currently in the car.
Carbs are the easiest, most economical option.
Dedicated modern FI is the "correct" path.

I could install a micro-squirt and keep ALL of the "factory look" and hoses.

Reuse EVERYTHING but the electronics. Might be able to re-use the fuel supply and injectors as well.

My only question is WHY when higher output designs are available?

And I believe SuperHawk996 is being very conservative regarding his "improvement" amounts.
I'd be hunting higher percentages...

The very best thing about the modern FI is its scalability.
Triple the HP via a LN level 2270 from a wimpy 1.8l
Keystrokes are what is required!
... along with a much bigger exhaust!

Now, (I cannot remember who I saw post this) a member here posted results of 150+ HP through the stock intake (modified FI, I think it was an L-jet system) so the intake itself can handle at least that amount.
It's the electronics and its sensing devices that are the Achille's heel here.

If I build a 2055 with one of my 2.0 cores my target will be 100% more power at the rear wheels over the bone stock 31K 1.8L L-jet engine that is original to the car.
I have the original FI (ratty and old but all parts there) and I purchased a complete running L-jet set up with a newer Jeff Bowlsby harness, newer injectors, taken off a nice car for the installation of modern stuff. Came with a 123 Bluetooth distributor.
I'm expecting 60-70 at the rear wheels stock.
Built 2055 with carbs I'd expect 100-120.
More serious 2055 with modern FI 125-140.

The real kicker is how each are going to feel...

The modern FI will be significantly better at low and mid throttle positions.
"Daily driving" is what these systems excel at.
Everything will be better and more user friendly.
It will cold start perfectly and not be the slightest bit "snorty" during warm up.

If you're looking for power improvements don't hamstring yourself with a 50+ year old design that parts are getting critical for.

[Zaffer]

I don’t know if the FI system I have is perfectly running as I have never had this particular system on my car (my old one burned up years ago). I repaired the wiring harness, have a rebuilt MPS, new injectors (MB), but the rest is untested. I’ll most likely get the ECU tested/repaired at FIC. I’m not new to the FI on these cars, I just don’t see them a lot. I installed one on a 1.8L that had carbs, but still had the original cam in it and had to sort that, but wasn’t terrible.

As for running the original FI, I know it’s archaic by today’s standards, but there is something to having it sorted and working. As for carbs, I do have experience with them, I just don’t like them. I had a ‘72 Fiat 850 Spyder, a ‘74 Ghia with twin two-barrell Dellortos, a ‘74 Spitfire with twin side draft SU’s, an ‘89 Ninja with factory carbs, and have worked on multiple vehicles with carbs. I’d rather stick with FI.

I have seen the FI setups with ITB’s that look like carbs, and was thinking about doing that when I had my Ghia, but didn’t keep it long enough as I sold it when I bought my 914. I’m not looking to maximize the power side of things right away and may do it in stages. We’ll see, one step at a time.

As for A/C work, I am certified and have 2 A/C machines: one R-134 and one R-134/R-1234yf. We had to get the yf one due to newer European vehicles using it. I like A/C work.

As for modifications, we stay away from that, primarily due to the EPA cracking down on everything. My partners and I do some stuff with good customers, but even there it’s limited for EPA reasons. I like working on older vehicles, but my partners hate it and the business does better with newer vehicles as our techs don’t know older stuff, and neither do my partners. We do work on older BMW’s and Porsches, but that’s it and I don’t like messing with CIS if I don’t have to, but will and have some experience with it from my Rabbits in the past.

I would like to focus more on older Porsches and BMW’s and there really aren’t many people in my area who know much about them, but time is not on my side at the moment. I realize I could do some in my spare time, but I prefer to spend that time with my family. My daughters don’t show a lot of interest when I do stuff at home, but I’ll probably make them help me as they get older so they know the basics and they will learn to drive a manual!

Back to the topic at hand, I may throw the engine in the car when I get it back home and see how it does. It turns by hand easily and the end play is within spec, so I may see what works and what doesn’t. It wouldn’t take me too terribly long to do that as I have everything I need to make it happen, just need to put it back in the car: SS fuel lines already run, just need to reinstall the fuel tank and pump, reassemble everything on the external part of the engine, then install and see what happens. Worst case: I have to take it back out; best case is it runs, is driveable, and I can enjoy it for a season. Then, pull it down this winter and start on the body work, which is a whole other story…..

Thanks for the advice and the knowledge!

[Superhawk996]

My daughters don’t show a lot of interest when I do stuff at home, but I’ll probably make them help me as they get older so they know the basics and they will learn to drive a manual!

That’s virtually child abuse, forcing them to learn to drive a manual. Might as well teach them how to properly use a buggy whip with horse and carriage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) my hats off to you for trying

[Zaffer]

My daughters don’t show a lot of interest when I do stuff at home, but I’ll probably make them help me as they get older so they know the basics and they will learn to drive a manual!

That’s virtually child abuse, forcing them to learn to drive a manual. Might as well teach them how to properly use a buggy whip with horse and carriage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) my hats off to you for trying

My oldest has told me multiple times she wants to, plus the Mini I’m going to give her when she turns 16 is a manual!

Love the link!

[Zaffer]

Well, I’m one step closer to starting back on my 914: I brought home the 1.8L long block. I still need to look and see if I still have the carb setup for this engine. If I do, I’ll most likely patch what I cut out of the long and put it back together enough to test the 1.8L engine. If that passes, I’ll probably get it together enough to drive safely on the road for this year and then start working on the rust repairs this fall.

I forgot that I have a spare 2.0L block with crank and cam, just don’t know the condition of it. That will have to be sorted as well!

Next step: get my 914 back home to start assessing everything, which will hopefully be tomorrow!

[Geezer914]

I used my Ljet injection when I built my 2056. I bought a 50mm Vanagon throttle body on the Samba web site. I modified the throttle body using the shaft from the 1.8 throttle body to accept the 50mm butterfly. Modified the plenum opening to 50mm using a tail pipe expander. Richened up the ECU using an O2 sensor and gauge to have 13.2 AFR at cruising speed. Also modified the air horn on the air cleaner box to 50mm. Using HAM RS 1.8 heads.