New car vs. Restored classic?, What are the possibilities? Options

[Literati914]

Those powered mirrors that close when you hit lock on the fob, is just asking for trouble and the mfg's know it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)

[Root_Werks]

My wife bought her first ever new car last year. So much tech to go wrong.

That's what my wife did in 2022. There were a lot of things nice about a new car, but ultimately, too many things that started to show signs of becoming quirky.

One of many things that bothered me was the lack of control as an Operator. When I'm behind the controls of machinery, I'm the one giving the input. Not so with many new cars.

Never opened the hood on her car before we sold it. Think I saw a picture of the engine bay on the internet once? Made me glad I never took a look in person.

[Lockwodo]

Old cars have personality and are more fun to drive than new cars. And when a repair is needed, there's a much better chance I can diagnose it myself and repair it with parts that don't cost an arm and a leg. Better selection of colors, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[peteinjp]

Funny to me to think of a car from 2000 on as old..... My scale is way off as even my 964 seems modern to me.

Personally if gas mileage is not a big concern (mostly local stuff) I prefer land cruisers. I have a BJ43 and an HZJ73- both 2 door middle length diesels (cheaper fuel in my area.) The BJ43 is a soft top so that's loads of fun to open up.

Any land cruiser though the 100 series is probably a very good bet in terms of parts availability and loooong lifespan. No doubt the mechanicals in my trucks will outlast me if I keep up on the rust. I'd consider a 60 series in the U.S. Dirt simple trucks that can haul a family and gear. Plenty of repair info out there and so far no issue with consumables. Many of the parts were span model to model- like axle/dif stuff and brakes.

Pete

[bkrantz]

I don't know.

I think our biases are showing, plus some rose colored glasses about the good old days.

Do you really think any car from the 70s or 80s, or even 90s, even when brand new, works as well and runs as comfortably as even the cheapest 2025 car?

70s and 80s have their drawbacks that is true.

The 90s is a whole other ballgame. I’ve spent a career analyzing JD Power, Consumer Reports, AMS, and warranty data. There have been no significant gains in reliability vs the 90s. In fact, the data shows the opposite. Reliability is decreasing as more electronics, more complexity, and more software is added.

The issue of comfort is highly subjective. If you define comfort as having features like touch screens, Apple CarPlay, WiFi, and heated & cooled seats - sure you’re not going to find that in 90’s or even early 00’s vehicles.

IMO basic comfort (not entertainment or distractions) is more about NVH (noise, vibration, harshness). That derives from design of suspension, body, interior, glass, etc. Even the way the interior echos road noise makes a difference, and reflects improvements of acoustic science and engineering.

You might be correct about some design advantages of 90s mechanical bits, but the rest of the car is still more crude than today.

[Superhawk996]

IMO basic comfort (not entertainment or distractions) is more about NVH (noise, vibration, harshness). That derives from design of suspension, body, interior, glass, etc. Even the way the interior echos road noise makes a difference, and reflects improvements of acoustic science and engineering.

That helps define what you meant by comfort.

Consider this - there were huge advances in NVH management between the 70s and 90s. Things like constrained layer damping. Use of tuned mass dampers, stiffening chassis structures, drastically reduced improved sealing, and making sure to avoid modal alignments between chassis, powertrain, and road inputs.

It is true there have been advances in NVH since the 90s. I worked on them regularly. Laminated side glass. Active noise cancellation using the audio system, active engine mounts, tuned hydro-bushings in the suspension, etc.

However, at some point you begin to hit the point of diminishing returns. You hit the point where the engine mounts are electronically controlled by the engine ECU and all of a sudden your NVH is dependent on a CAN bus. You hit the point where a couple of CAN bus wires that are chewed by a rodent or pinched by a careless mechanic can take down multiple systems in the car that aren’t even remotely related to engine mounts.

Yea, NVH improvements since the 90s are nice and I’ll certainly agree vehicles today are more highly refined than what we had in the 90s but to me - it’s a level of refinement that I’m not willing to trade for decreased reliability & maintainability of the vehicle as a whole.

Time will tell but at the moment I’m daily driving a 98’ Camry very comfortably with zero issues. The NVH of a 90s Camry is very easy to live with. That is a 27 year old vehicle performing to design intent. Let’s check back on the current crop of 2025 vehicles and let’s see how many are still functioning to design intent in 2052.

[Montreal914]

I miss daily driving my 73 914. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[infraredcalvin]

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned E30 BMW, i had a 91 318is i wish i kept it for one of my kids.

Low key on the hunt for an e30 M3…

[DennisV]

Why? OBDII makes things easier. In the majority of cases the codes point you to what the problem is. Swap a sensor, and you’re back in business.

Having a good scan tool that is compatible with the OEM specific codes is key. For example on the BMW X5 my generic scan tool can’t reset or give much insight on some of BMWs specific / unique codes.

I used to take my '97 Boxster to a competent independent repair shop that only worked on Porsche. They had a genuine Porsche diagnostic tool. On more than one occasion, they couldn't get enough info from the tool to get to root cause. Luckily they had contacts at the dealer who sometimes had to escalate to the factory to come up with a fix.

I was also under the impression that OEM scanners were thousands of dollars and required software subscriptions.

Maybe things have changed and the scanners are better and cheaper now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Superhawk996]

I used to take my '97 Boxster to a competent independent repair shop that only worked on Porsche. They had a genuine Porsche diagnostic tool. On more than one occasion, they couldn't get enough info from the tool to get to root cause. Luckily they had contacts at the dealer who sometimes had to escalate to the factory to come up with a fix.

I was also under the impression that OEM scanners were thousands of dollars and required software subscriptions.

Maybe things have changed and the scanners are better and cheaper now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Not sure what’s going on at your Indy. Are we taking about engine emissions codes or other stuff like body controls (windows, locks, control of the convertible top, instruments, etc?)

Keep in mind that OBDII came into effect in 1996. In a lot of ways it was still immature in 97’ and OEMs were still trying to figure it out themselves. As a counter point, I’ve never had any OBDII issues with my 98’ Camry.

Here’s the reality, OBD originated as engine / emissions control. Engine OBDII is standardized by regulation and most of the engine codes and failure modes are dictated by regulation and well mapped between this failure = this root cause.

When you get to OEM codes for all other systems (body, chassis, electrical) it’s up to the OEM to define codes and what sets them. In my example - a BMW transfer case oil abrasion code isn’t dictated by regulation and BMW defines the code, what sets it, and what it takes to repair and clear the code.

With respect to scan tools, this is a topic worthy of its own thread but few here would care because it’s OT to 914’s.

I didn’t mean to imply the scan tool has to be OEM. Yes, many of those can be expensive and do require OEM subscriptions. However some OEMs allow short term subscription (by day, week, or month) but are still somewhat pricy. BMW for example is $32/day, $270 /month and $2500 /year as I recall.

What was referring to is there are two basic classes of aftermarket scan tools:

1) Cheap (ie less than $100 ish) that read only the standardized, regulated OBDII engine codes. These tools do a poor job of being able to read or properly identify the OEM enhanced codes. These tools are usually incapable of being able to read out live data from the vehicle or to do bidirectional communication with the vehicle to activate systems or test sensors. Example Innova’s low end tools. These aren’t bad tools - just limited in what they can do.


2) Scan tools that are still generic and can read many OEMs but capable of bi-directional communication. They can read live data. They can control actuators. They can perform OEM specific service resets. These have a huge price range between a couple hundred dollars and thousands. Some brands of scan tools handle certain OEMs better than others. Examples: Foxwell, Autel, Thinktool, etc.

But the bottom line is OBD isn’t something to be afraid of. If you can tune a carb, you can figure out how to use OBDII scan tools (even a cheap one) to your advantage.

[JeffBowlsby]

We are in a paradigm shift. Broadly speaking,

Boomers live in a world of relatively simple cars, with a presumed right-to-repair for maintenance and customization, varying from small to large degree. Customization flows from the need to replace NLA parts, or to improve or build the car of ones dreams. Cars not seen as disposable, they can be repaired, restored, improved and customized. Its car culture, and its in the Boomer DNA.

Later generations tend not to share those perspecitives. They see cars as A to B transportation devices. Leave maintenance to the dealers or an indy shop. Not interested in hot rodding. Not into car culture. Right to repair is not on their radar.

Manufacturers recognize and accommodate this shift in generational priorities. Right to repair is becoming obsolete as cars become so complicated that only specialists have the skills and equipment needed. For some newer vehicles only the dealer can provide the needed service, or the owners manual states that simple procedures (such as transmission and transfer case fluid changes) can only be performed by the dealer. Cars are seen as disposable appliances. Foam bumpers, plastic grilles, plastic oil pans and drain plugs, digital dashes that are unrepairable, black box computers that control everything from transmissions to headlights. Non-modular audio.

As even more complicated drivetrains, safety and emissions systems, and tech develop - will these foster a market share grab by manufacturers? Will the day come when cars can only be serviced at dealerships with proprietary equipment they control? Independent mechanics become non-existent; they work at the dealership now. Maybe the reality is coming sooner than we thought, when we don't buy/own cars, we can only rent them as a taxi service.

[didenpx]

I had a 2020 base GTI with 6-speed and still very analogue; loved it but let it go when the chance to reacquire my old 1998 Volvo V70R in Saffron came up. The guy I sold it to did a manual-swapped and dropped in a 2.4 liter B5244T5 engine out of a 2006 S60 T5.

It’s even more analogue than the GTI, and certainly a lot less refined. But I love the boxy wagon shape and the obnoxious color. It’s now my daily driver.

[Superhawk996]

We are in a paradigm shift. Broadly speaking,

Well stated Jeff. It’s good that you can see what is occurring and are considering options.

A good chunk of why I’m rabidly lobbying my case for the 90’s vintage vehicles is because that era of vehicles encompasses the best of both the old and the new. Easy to repair and customize but has the reliability and refinement we have come to expect from our daily drivers.

I pray that I don’t live to see the transportation as a service come to fruition where we will be expected to own nothing and to be happy about it.

[wonkipop]

We are in a paradigm shift. Broadly speaking,

Boomers live in a world of relatively simple cars, with a presumed right-to-repair for maintenance and customization, varying from small to large degree. Customization flows from the need to replace NLA parts, or to improve or build the car of ones dreams. Cars not seen as disposable, they can be repaired, restored, improved and customized. Its car culture, and its in the Boomer DNA.

Later generations tend not to share those perspecitives. They see cars as A to B transportation devices. Leave maintenance to the dealers or an indy shop. Not interested in hot rodding. Not into car culture. Right to repair is not on their radar.

Manufacturers recognize and accommodate this shift in generational priorities. Right to repair is becoming obsolete as cars become so complicated that only specialists have the skills and equipment needed. For some newer vehicles only the dealer can provide the needed service, or the owners manual states that simple procedures (such as transmission and transfer case fluid changes) can only be performed by the dealer. Cars are seen as disposable appliances. Foam bumpers, plastic grilles, plastic oil pans and drain plugs, digital dashes that are unrepairable, black box computers that control everything from transmissions to headlights. Non-modular audio.

As even more complicated drivetrains, safety and emissions systems, and tech develop - will these foster a market share grab by manufacturers? Will the day come when cars can only be serviced at dealerships with proprietary equipment they control? Independent mechanics become non-existent; they work at the dealership now. Maybe the reality is coming sooner than we thought, when we don't buy/own cars, we can only rent them as a taxi service.

yep

you nailed it.

cars will be some kind of subscriber service.
good for all appliance minded folks.
which is automatically 51% of the population.
and a further 25% who have lost a sense of their gender.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

anyway. if all you wanna do is drive to the end in the final phase of life.
and not get worked over and frustrated by being a captive to modules gone insane,
then i think somewhere there in the 90s is the sweet spot.

'cause, when something from the about 2010 on shites itself, you gonna be scratching your head and opening your wallet. and then if you have to dig down into the engine, well for ged aboud it.

i reckon my assembled fleet can get me to the grave so to speak at this point.

the next generation can worry about what the world is getting them into.
but one day some mother is going to rock up to the supermarket to do the shopping and that electric tailgate on her 10 foot tall SUV that keeps baby on board safe is gonna shit itself and then she is going to find out its 4000$ to fix it just so she can go shopping again. etc.

[chmillman]

We are in a paradigm shift. Broadly speaking,

Maybe the reality is coming sooner than we thought, when we don't buy/own cars, we can only rent them as a taxi service.

Nice post, thanks Jeff! Yes, I can definitely see this happening, especially in places (like here) where there are good public transport systems - a number of people I know do not own a car and rent them when needed, also families with only one car and a lot of electric bicycles, etc. Electric vehicles - despite the fact that sales have slowed considerably recently in a lot of places - are contributing to this, there's virtually nothing to tune or fix anymore, there's no personality to them, just a thing that gets you (semi-autonomously) from point A to point B. No real need to own one if you are not personally attached.

[Jett]

Bought this fellow off BAT a couple of weeks ago… was two miles from the house.

One owner and he didn’t want to sell, but downsizing ….

[campbellcj]

100-Series Land Cruiser or Lexus LX470 is one of the best overall family haulers / SUVs ever made... Our 2005 has been a workhorse and has around 330k mi of commuting and road tripping. It basically drives like new but looks battered from 20 years of exposure to kids. New vehicles are not built to the same quality level.

Right now we have 9 vehicles in the family fleet and 8 are 2011 or older.

[didenpx]

Bought this fellow off BAT a couple of weeks ago… was two miles from the house.

One owner and he didn’t want to sell, but downsizing ….

gorgeous!

[bkrantz]

We are in a paradigm shift. Broadly speaking,

Boomers live in a world of relatively simple cars, with a presumed right-to-repair for maintenance and customization, varying from small to large degree. Customization flows from the need to replace NLA parts, or to improve or build the car of ones dreams. Cars not seen as disposable, they can be repaired, restored, improved and customized. Its car culture, and its in the Boomer DNA.

Later generations tend not to share those perspecitives. They see cars as A to B transportation devices. Leave maintenance to the dealers or an indy shop. Not interested in hot rodding. Not into car culture. Right to repair is not on their radar.

Manufacturers recognize and accommodate this shift in generational priorities. Right to repair is becoming obsolete as cars become so complicated that only specialists have the skills and equipment needed. For some newer vehicles only the dealer can provide the needed service, or the owners manual states that simple procedures (such as transmission and transfer case fluid changes) can only be performed by the dealer. Cars are seen as disposable appliances. Foam bumpers, plastic grilles, plastic oil pans and drain plugs, digital dashes that are unrepairable, black box computers that control everything from transmissions to headlights. Non-modular audio.

As even more complicated drivetrains, safety and emissions systems, and tech develop - will these foster a market share grab by manufacturers? Will the day come when cars can only be serviced at dealerships with proprietary equipment they control? Independent mechanics become non-existent; they work at the dealership now. Maybe the reality is coming sooner than we thought, when we don't buy/own cars, we can only rent them as a taxi service.

You might be too harsh on younger people. Yes, young gear heads are a minority. But it was the same for us 50 years ago.

But don't get me started on the continent who look at cars as just another internet device, with wheels attached.

[Chris914n6]

90s are kinda the sweet spot. Multi-port FI on a basic engine. 5 speed manual or 4 speed auto. But the interiors are old, used parts are old. New parts for lights, bumpers, usually damaged stuff is hit or miss. My 1988 Pathfinder is in that dead zone... no new interior parts and nothing at the wreckers.

My 2004 Chevy Blazer I 'reconditioned'. Parts readily available and cheap. Still plenty at the wreckers. I'm only missing a good drivers bottom seat cushion. Installed a large screen radio with backup camera. Qualified for classic insurance as a towpig. Meets my needs except the mileage sucks.

Her 07 Highlander is doing fine except the paint.

Been eyeballing a gen2 Cayenne in a couple years. I just don't drive enough to justify spending too much for a nice ride.

I made the 914 comfy. A big 6 allows that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also had an 05 beetle and 07 GTI. The beetle was a plastic breaking POS. The GTI was nice and parts were available.

Also have Dad's 73 Squarebody. I can gets parts for it pretty easy except a few 1 year only things. Likely will put the Blazer drivetrain in it for driveabilty as it practically bolts in. A carbed 454 and Th400 suck a lot of gas. Also the brakes suck and the undersized tires and the rust so it will need to be modernized.

I don't think I want to touch something made in the past 15 years. Too much fancy engineering in the variable cam engine & 8-9-10 speed trans that seems to fail more often.