Starter Booster, I hate to revisit this topic, but... Options

[black914]

I have found this topic through a search but my question remains unanswered! I went down to the Queen City yesterday to do a repair on my son's 924S. The trip is essentially 85 miles of 65 miles per hour non-stop driving. When I arrived and rested for about thrity minutes, we decided to go get something to eat first, got in the 914, turned the ignition switch and no turnover. The fuel pump was operating but the starter was not getting the signal. I let it cool for a while, attempted to crank it again and it fired right away. We ran a few errands and made about three stops requiring the engine to be turned off and restarted and I encountered no problems. Went home later in the day around 6:30PM, traveled the miles at 65 steady for about one hour, stopped to get a cola, got back in, attempted to crank it, but again, nothing. Fortunately a good samaritan help me push it off and I got it cranked okay. I got home safely.

I notice that Bosch has encountered this problem before and they have offered a starter booster kit that cures the hot starter problem by boosting the voltage to the starter. My 914 has a remanufactured starter (don't know the age because it was installed by the previous owner).

Would this cure my problem? Apparently it has been a problem in the past or Bosch would not have offered a cure.

Comments?

[TravisNeff]

the starter booster is nothing more than a band aid. The real problem is the starter solenoid. You can replace the solenoid, or use the booster kit. The booster kit is basically just a relay

[rhodyguy]

or spend $90 and forget about it. you'll get one for sure after your wife is with you and you make her get out of the car to help push.

k

[black914]

So.......

This returns to my original question. Is this an overheating issue peculiar to the solenoid? If I simply replace the solenoid on the starter, will this cure the problem? Or will it recur again in six months? Is the solenoid the issue because it overheats or because it simply goes bad?

[SLITS]

Heat increases resistance in the wires and commensurately drops the voltage to the solenoid

The Bosch "Hot Start System" is merely a relay that has a lower "pull in" requirement for the relay which closes the circuit to give higher voltage to the solenoid.

The high resistance you experience could be in the switch, the wires running to the relay board, the wires running from the relay board or the solenoid itself.

Please your wife...put a momentary push button across the bat terminal and spade terminal on the solenoid...when it fails to turn, open the engine lid (make sure key is on) and push the button to start (make sure car is otta gear and parking brake is on).

[TravisNeff]

Forgot about the switch. There is about 20ft of wire to and from the starter, over time the wires gain resistance, the switch itself can get faulty ( but if it starts when cool and never when hot I doubt it is the switch). The solenoid does just as what SLITS states. You may want to make sure your battery ground, and transmission ground straps are in good shape as well.

[black914]

Travis,

Battery ground and transmission ground are brand new. I'll investigate the starter wire tomorrow. I just hate to replace the solenoid if it is not the culprit. I suspect heat is the main issue here because the car seems to start fine when it is cool.

[914GT]

I had the 'hot start' problem soon after I got my V8 conversion on the road. I already had a new IMI hi-torq starter and a new ignition switch, but one afternoon last summer running errands on a 105 deg day I encountered a 'chattering' starter after having the hot engine off for about 5 minutes. After waiting another 5-10 min. it started normally.

What was happening was once the engine was off and sitting still, the starter motor was getting 'heat soaked' with the heat coming off the exhaust pipe (about 3 inches away) and probably coming off the engine itself. With the engine off there's no air moving around the starter motor so the heat rises and get trapped under there. When I got it home I measured the voltage on the solenoid with the key turned to start position (I had disconnected the battery cable off the starter) and I measured 9 volts. So there was a 3 volt drop in the wires going to and from the ignition switch.

I installed a relay next to the starter solenoid and now always get near full battery voltage on the solenoid. I've never had this problem since. In my opinion, the stock wiring is marginal with not a lot of headroom when the starter gets old, and the resistance in the ignition switch increases with wear. For most parts of the country and a stock 914 maybe the relay is considered a band-aid, but here in the Arizona summer with my V8 car the relay works wonders by eliminating that 3 volt wiring loss.

[jasons]

I just think the relay makes sense. Even if you have a new starter, why source all the starter current through however much wiring and a ignition switch. Also, if you install the relay, its convenient to add remote start in the event your ignition switch fails or its easy to add a kill switch. Sure you can do both of those without the relay too. But, I would take caution adding a remote start switch directly across the starter. Thats alot of current and you need a switch that can handle it.

I have a non-914 car that, when I bought it, had a screwed up ignition switch. Dumbass PO installed a switch directly across the starter poles. It wasn't rated for the current and eventually, it shorted so the car sat there with the starter running. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

I have seen this problem with chevy's, VW's, and 914's alike. Before I knew about the Bosch relay, I used a Ford solenoid in my FJ40 landcruiser with a 350 swap to cure this problem. This was after a starter and 2 solenoids didn't cure it. One of my Best friends went through at least 2 starters and I don't know how many solenoids in a VW bus before he gave up and sold the bus. (We didn't know the fix then, we learned it shortly after he sold it, while I had my Landcruiser.)

Point is, its cheap, it works, its electronically sound.

If you don't believe me, then I suggest you just add a Flux Capacitor.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

[Trekkor]

QUOTE

maybe the relay is considered a band-aid

who cares? band-aids are awesome (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

I have one and will always have one. When my starters finally gives it up, the band-aid stays.

i hate problems. If you don't like the relay, don't look under my car. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) If you look anyway, you deserve to see *something*. Wouldn't want to disappoint you...Ha Ha.
KT

[smooth_eddy]

I too have a hot start problem. I did searches and see there is 3 different answers. 1. buy new starter motor. 2. buy new solenoid. 3. add aux relay. I looked under my car and see the PO already left me a relay, but is not connected. One thing is for sure, my gf is getting tired of pushing me (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif) Eddy

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (trekkor @ Sep 4 2005, 11:16 PM)

QUOTE maybe the relay is considered a band-aid who cares? band-aids are awesome (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) I have one and will always have one. When my starters finally gives it up, the band-aid stays. i hate problems. If you don't like the relay, don't look under my car. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

trekkor is using a ford solinoid...I'v put many into customers and my cars, they have never failed to work unless it was something else.

Just go to a FLAPs and ask for a Ford solinoid that mounts on the inner fender.

I also don't care if people call it a band-aid...beats cutting and hacking the OEM wiring. The way I do it I cut absolutly nothing.

BTW I think the bosch relay is to light for the job...that's where the "band-aid" claim comes from.

[Spoke]

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Sep 5 2005, 07:06 AM)

I also don't care if people call it a band-aid...beats cutting and hacking the OEM wiring.

The relay isn't a bandaid here. It is simply a better design than the one that VW engineers came up with in 1969. Running the solenoid current through all the wiring to and from the ignition key and through the relay board connectors is a suspect design.

I've had a problem with my solenoid where the rubber boot around the solenoid piston is a bit gummy and causes the solenoid not to pull in causing the starter not to start. Some WD40 on the rubber boot and piston cures the problem - for a while at least. I have taken the starter out twice now in the last 1 1/2 years and currently it starts up very nicely all the time. (until the next time the solenoid sticks) I'll add a relay at some point.

Spoke

[black914]

Thanks for all the replies so far...

The reason I opened the discussion was in order to prevent myself from doing something that was not really required. I had removed an old relay similar in placement as shown on Trekkor's reply. This solenoid had been disconnected by the PO or someone before that and I therefore removed it about a month ago. It seems that someone had a similar problem on the car sometime in the past history of the car.

I may try the ford solenoid as recommended by Mark Henry. I did some work on the car this morning and it started without hesitation. The volt meter reads about 13.5 to 13.8 in the car so I assume the battery is up to snuff. When the car gets hot, I encounter the problems.

As of now, I think the ford solenoid may be the answer. The bosch relay is only about $20.00 from Tweeks, but some of you seem to think it is not adequate but actually a "band-aid".

Mark, If I try the ford solenoid solution, what would be the recommended wire gauge? I assume it needs to be at least the size of the yellow ignition switch wire that would connect to the new solenoid.

[94teener]

I have installed a hot start relay on all of my 914 cars and have never had
a hot start problem with any of the cars since.

You only relay need a little relay with 10 amp contacts to do the trick. The
Ford relay is heavy duty over kill.

A diagram:

[black914]

Thanks, 94teener...

Is this the same relay that comes with the hot start booster that Bosch makes? Or is this similar to the one Mid America Motorworks has for sale?

[black914]

As a follow-up for the record...

I installed a starter relay from Performance Parts for the cost of $21.00 this past week. I took the 914 to a swap meet about an hour away, reaching speeds up to seventy with typical engine temperatures. Made several stops throughout the day which served as a good test for the new starter relay.

I am happy to report that I did not encounter any hot start problems! Let's see how this fix endures.

[Trekkor]

Good news. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

It will last as long as the starter...


KT

[DJsRepS]

Just fix it right dont use any FORD parts at all, it will poison your 914 like a virus.

[Tobra]

and then you get Found On Road Dead.

My car has the hot start thing, has a booster, little switch on the drivers side of engine bay, I did not look too closely at it, but I don't think the relay is hooked up.

When the car is hot, there is no click, no starter noise at all, but you can hear the fuel pump, and it push starts fine. I am thinking solenoid in my case, but will climb under there and check out the relay.