I have found this topic through a search but my question remains unanswered! I went down to the Queen City yesterday to do a repair on my son's 924S. The trip is essentially 85 miles of 65 miles per hour non-stop driving. When I arrived and rested for about thrity minutes, we decided to go get something to eat first, got in the 914, turned the ignition switch and no turnover. The fuel pump was operating but the starter was not getting the signal. I let it cool for a while, attempted to crank it again and it fired right away. We ran a few errands and made about three stops requiring the engine to be turned off and restarted and I encountered no problems. Went home later in the day around 6:30PM, traveled the miles at 65 steady for about one hour, stopped to get a cola, got back in, attempted to crank it, but again, nothing. Fortunately a good samaritan help me push it off and I got it cranked okay. I got home safely.

I notice that Bosch has encountered this problem before and they have offered a starter booster kit that cures the hot starter problem by boosting the voltage to the starter. My 914 has a remanufactured starter (don't know the age because it was installed by the previous owner).

Would this cure my problem? Apparently it has been a problem in the past or Bosch would not have offered a cure.

Comments?

the starter booster is nothing more than a band aid. The real problem is the starter solenoid. You can replace the solenoid, or use the booster kit. The booster kit is basically just a relay

or spend $90 and forget about it. you'll get one for sure after your wife is with you and you make her get out of the car to help push.

k

So.......

This returns to my original question. Is this an overheating issue peculiar to the solenoid? If I simply replace the solenoid on the starter, will this cure the problem? Or will it recur again in six months? Is the solenoid the issue because it overheats or because it simply goes bad?

Heat increases resistance in the wires and commensurately drops the voltage to the solenoid

The Bosch "Hot Start System" is merely a relay that has a lower "pull in" requirement for the relay which closes the circuit to give higher voltage to the solenoid.

The high resistance you experience could be in the switch, the wires running to the relay board, the wires running from the relay board or the solenoid itself.

Please your wife...put a momentary push button across the bat terminal and spade terminal on the solenoid...when it fails to turn, open the engine lid (make sure key is on) and push the button to start (make sure car is otta gear and parking brake is on).

Forgot about the switch. There is about 20ft of wire to and from the starter, over time the wires gain resistance, the switch itself can get faulty ( but if it starts when cool and never when hot I doubt it is the switch). The solenoid does just as what SLITS states. You may want to make sure your battery ground, and transmission ground straps are in good shape as well.

Travis,

Battery ground and transmission ground are brand new. I'll investigate the starter wire tomorrow. I just hate to replace the solenoid if it is not the culprit. I suspect heat is the main issue here because the car seems to start fine when it is cool.

I had the 'hot start' problem soon after I got my V8 conversion on the road. I already had a new IMI hi-torq starter and a new ignition switch, but one afternoon last summer running errands on a 105 deg day I encountered a 'chattering' starter after having the hot engine off for about 5 minutes. After waiting another 5-10 min. it started normally.

What was happening was once the engine was off and sitting still, the starter motor was getting 'heat soaked' with the heat coming off the exhaust pipe (about 3 inches away) and probably coming off the engine itself. With the engine off there's no air moving around the starter motor so the heat rises and get trapped under there. When I got it home I measured the voltage on the solenoid with the key turned to start position (I had disconnected the battery cable off the starter) and I measured 9 volts. So there was a 3 volt drop in the wires going to and from the ignition switch.

I installed a relay next to the starter solenoid and now always get near full battery voltage on the solenoid. I've never had this problem since. In my opinion, the stock wiring is marginal with not a lot of headroom when the starter gets old, and the resistance in the ignition switch increases with wear. For most parts of the country and a stock 914 maybe the relay is considered a band-aid, but here in the Arizona summer with my V8 car the relay works wonders by eliminating that 3 volt wiring loss.

I just think the relay makes sense. Even if you have a new starter, why source all the starter current through however much wiring and a ignition switch. Also, if you install the relay, its convenient to add remote start in the event your ignition switch fails or its easy to add a kill switch. Sure you can do both of those without the relay too. But, I would take caution adding a remote start switch directly across the starter. Thats alot of current and you need a switch that can handle it.

I have a non-914 car that, when I bought it, had a screwed up ignition switch. Dumbass PO installed a switch directly across the starter poles. It wasn't rated for the current and eventually, it shorted so the car sat there with the starter running.

I have seen this problem with chevy's, VW's, and 914's alike. Before I knew about the Bosch relay, I used a Ford solenoid in my FJ40 landcruiser with a 350 swap to cure this problem. This was after a starter and 2 solenoids didn't cure it. One of my Best friends went through at least 2 starters and I don't know how many solenoids in a VW bus before he gave up and sold the bus. (We didn't know the fix then, we learned it shortly after he sold it, while I had my Landcruiser.)

Point is, its cheap, it works, its electronically sound.

If you don't believe me, then I suggest you just add a Flux Capacitor.

QUOTE

maybe the relay is considered a band-aid

who cares? band-aids are awesome

I have one and will always have one. When my starters finally gives it up, the band-aid stays.

i hate problems. If you don't like the relay, don't look under my car. If you look anyway, you deserve to see *something*. Wouldn't want to disappoint you...Ha Ha.
KT

I too have a hot start problem. I did searches and see there is 3 different answers. 1. buy new starter motor. 2. buy new solenoid. 3. add aux relay. I looked under my car and see the PO already left me a relay, but is not connected. One thing is for sure, my gf is getting tired of pushing me Eddy

QUOTE (trekkor @ Sep 4 2005, 11:16 PM)

QUOTE maybe the relay is considered a band-aid who cares? band-aids are awesome I have one and will always have one. When my starters finally gives it up, the band-aid stays. i hate problems. If you don't like the relay, don't look under my car.

trekkor is using a ford solinoid...I'v put many into customers and my cars, they have never failed to work unless it was something else.

Just go to a FLAPs and ask for a Ford solinoid that mounts on the inner fender.

I also don't care if people call it a band-aid...beats cutting and hacking the OEM wiring. The way I do it I cut absolutly nothing.

BTW I think the bosch relay is to light for the job...that's where the "band-aid" claim comes from.

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Sep 5 2005, 07:06 AM)

I also don't care if people call it a band-aid...beats cutting and hacking the OEM wiring.

The relay isn't a bandaid here. It is simply a better design than the one that VW engineers came up with in 1969. Running the solenoid current through all the wiring to and from the ignition key and through the relay board connectors is a suspect design.

I've had a problem with my solenoid where the rubber boot around the solenoid piston is a bit gummy and causes the solenoid not to pull in causing the starter not to start. Some WD40 on the rubber boot and piston cures the problem - for a while at least. I have taken the starter out twice now in the last 1 1/2 years and currently it starts up very nicely all the time. (until the next time the solenoid sticks) I'll add a relay at some point.

Spoke

Thanks for all the replies so far...

The reason I opened the discussion was in order to prevent myself from doing something that was not really required. I had removed an old relay similar in placement as shown on Trekkor's reply. This solenoid had been disconnected by the PO or someone before that and I therefore removed it about a month ago. It seems that someone had a similar problem on the car sometime in the past history of the car.

I may try the ford solenoid as recommended by Mark Henry. I did some work on the car this morning and it started without hesitation. The volt meter reads about 13.5 to 13.8 in the car so I assume the battery is up to snuff. When the car gets hot, I encounter the problems.

As of now, I think the ford solenoid may be the answer. The bosch relay is only about $20.00 from Tweeks, but some of you seem to think it is not adequate but actually a "band-aid".

Mark, If I try the ford solenoid solution, what would be the recommended wire gauge? I assume it needs to be at least the size of the yellow ignition switch wire that would connect to the new solenoid.

I have installed a hot start relay on all of my 914 cars and have never had
a hot start problem with any of the cars since.

You only relay need a little relay with 10 amp contacts to do the trick. The
Ford relay is heavy duty over kill.

A diagram:

Thanks, 94teener...

Is this the same relay that comes with the hot start booster that Bosch makes? Or is this similar to the one Mid America Motorworks has for sale?

As a follow-up for the record...

I installed a starter relay from Performance Parts for the cost of $21.00 this past week. I took the 914 to a swap meet about an hour away, reaching speeds up to seventy with typical engine temperatures. Made several stops throughout the day which served as a good test for the new starter relay.

I am happy to report that I did not encounter any hot start problems! Let's see how this fix endures.

Good news.

It will last as long as the starter...


KT

Just fix it right dont use any FORD parts at all, it will poison your 914 like a virus.

and then you get Found On Road Dead.

My car has the hot start thing, has a booster, little switch on the drivers side of engine bay, I did not look too closely at it, but I don't think the relay is hooked up.

When the car is hot, there is no click, no starter noise at all, but you can hear the fuel pump, and it push starts fine. I am thinking solenoid in my case, but will climb under there and check out the relay.

Okay, so this thread is a little old, but maybe a bump will get some replies.

My car came with a stock (remanufactured) starter and a hot start relay. At first, I never encountered problems. Then, if I drove for a long time (1 hour +) I had the hot start problem (solenoid/starter would not engage, had to push start). Now, it seems that I get the hot start problem whenever I get the engine up to full operating temperature. So something is getting worse.

Since I already have the relay, the only two options left are the hi-torqe starter like the one on Ebay mini starter or the Ford solenoid.

A couple of questions :

1) Can someone give a part number for this solenoid or (year/model of car that uses it) so I know what to ask for. FLAPS guys can never find anything unless you ask for something very specific. Also, about what does this cost ?

2) How does the mini-starter fit ? Does it stick up any closer to the trunk floor than the stock one ? I'm in the early stages of a Subaru install, and I don't want to run iinto fitting issues...

Thanks

Actually, I've been searching even deeper into the archives, and I'm beginning to think that the term "Ford Solenoid" got used to mean "Ford Relay". (Of course, a relay does contain a solenoid, so it's kind of a grey distinction...).

Since I usually don't drive very far unless I go up into the mountains (where there tend to be hilly spots to park) I may try the wire cleanup and see if that helps. But any feedback on the starter on Ebay would be appreciated...

You really don't need the 'Ford relay'. You can use the small square 25A general purpose relays hanging up on blister packages at your local FLAPS for a starter solenoid relay. You can see mine connected in the upper right corner of this picture:

I dont see why any one needs any realy the germans didnt put in there to begin with. There is a real problem and the relay is a patch. Nice exaust there. My pipes dont go up like that on my 80hp 1.7. I like the way they are wrapped so neat too. Nice workmanship sweet.

I've had cars with the ford relay still not start.
I replaced the solinoid too, and still had a hot start condition.


If the ford relay failed, would the car still start cold?

I can say that I've never had a high-torque fail on me, so I think I'll try that in the street car when I get it back on the road this winter.


whats the failure mode of the ford relay anyone?

brant

So my car already came with a relay and is having the hot start problem I was confused at first when I saw references to a "Ford Solenoid", which I thought meant that people were removing the Porsche/VW/Bosch starter solenoid from their starter and replacing it with something from Ford. Then I gathered that what they really meant was a "Ford Relay", which does me no good as I already have a relay.

Some people look down on the relay as a bandaid or cheap fix, but to me it makes perfect sense. Any time you want to deliver power to a load (like the starter), you don't want to dissipate it somewhere else (like along 20 feet of crusty old wire.) The other "easy fix" which I haven't tried yet, and which also makes perfect sense, is to clean up the ground and battery connections : the same idea, really - just reduce unneccesary resistance from the circuit.

I noticed that I had hot start problems on Saturday (beautiful warm weather) but not on Sunday (chilly, wet weather), so I would imagine some sort of heat shielding (but not quite as nice as Brant's) would be of some help.

But I think the real solution (apart from buying a new starter...) would be a cable that pulls a spring-loaded hammer back and then lets go. Think we can get a group buy together ???

I don't know about the hammer idea, but I know there have been times I wanted to take a hammer to the whole damn car. When they designed these cars, or after the bean counters got done analyzing where to cut costs, they did not have a lot of margin built in. The electrical system is a known problem area due to the small wire gauge causing excessive voltage drops. The starter circuit up through the ignition switch is a good example. When everything is in good condition it will work in most parts of the country. But with wear and tear on the ignition switch, oxidized grounds, a worn starter, and high temperatures what little operating margin you had disappears. I had a hot-start problem with my V8 on a 110 deg. day even with a new ignition switch, new IMI starter, and a fresh battery. I took care of it my wrapping the exhaust pipes to reduce heat transfer to the starter motor, and installed the relay for good measure. The relay eliminated the 3 V drop I was seeing to the starter solenoid, and it makes sure the solenoid engages well even on the hottest days here in Arizona. The whole idea is to improve the car's reliability as much as possible.

Most late fords didn't have a soleniod on the starter...it's up on the fender. It dosen't have to push a bendix to be called a solenoid. The ford solenoid is a true solenoid, where as most relays tend to have very small contact points.

Most times guys that say this fix dosen't work in the very next breath say that they tried the small VW Ghia horn relay.

I have only had one die... do to rust on a winter beater...it quit and never worked again.

I had this problem on Betty's car for years. Put in the relay like the factory bulletin said. It worked OK for a while, but the relay stuck one day, so I removed it. Started having the problem again.


Permanent fix was a high torque starter. Multiple 100 degree plus days and I have not had a problem yet.

I have them on both cars now.

QUOTE (jsteele22 @ Oct 10 2005, 04:08 PM)

So my car already came with a relay and is having the hot start problem I was confused at first when I saw references to a "Ford Solenoid", which I thought meant that people were removing the Porsche/VW/Bosch starter solenoid from their starter and replacing it with something from Ford. Then I gathered that what they really meant was a "Ford Relay", which does me no good as I already have a relay. Some people look down on the relay as a bandaid or cheap fix, but to me it makes perfect sense. Any time you want to deliver power to a load (like the starter), you don't want to dissipate it somewhere else (like along 20 feet of crusty old wire.) The other "easy fix" which I haven't tried yet, and which also makes perfect sense, is to clean up the ground and battery connections : the same idea, really - just reduce unneccesary resistance from the circuit. I noticed that I had hot start problems on Saturday (beautiful warm weather) but not on Sunday (chilly, wet weather), so I would imagine some sort of heat shielding (but not quite as nice as Brant's) would be of some help. But I think the real solution (apart from buying a new starter...) would be a cable that pulls a spring-loaded hammer back and then lets go. Think we can get a group buy together ???

Jeff,

you crack me up..
I love it.
I definitely want in on the group buy...


p.s. not my pretty heat shielding.. although I agree, nice picture hey!

brant

QUOTE (jsteele22 @ Oct 10 2005, 05:08 PM)

But I think the real solution (apart from buying a new starter...) would be a cable that pulls a spring-loaded hammer back and then lets go.  Think we can get a group buy together ???

That's exactly what I had to do on our run the weekend before last (you should have joined us Jeff). Except I was the "BFH solenoid" while the kid cranked the key.

And mine has a hot start relay kit on it also. I bought it that way and I understand why it might be beneficial, but preventing the common "914 hot start" problem isn't it. It needs a new starter.

So between you, jeff, and I...
thats three cars with hot start relays that still fail.

weird thing is that I have tried 3 different starters on mine (all with the hot start relay) and all 3 failed....

granted they were used starters so I didn't really expect all three of them to work...
but the point I'm trying to make is, "why are all 3 of us still having failures with the relay in place"

Gint, how does the relay fail.
could it be that my relay is bad and thats why it isn't boosting my power to any of the 3 starters I tried....

or when the relay fails it is just open.. (this seems more logical to me)

anyways
hope you get your car and your starter working this weekend.
I'll be in NY so will see you all in a week.
brant

I thought I had a hot start problem at RRC, but it "cured" itself on Saturday and I drove it all the way home on Sunday and never had another problem.

I knew before the event that I had a problem with the ignition switch. It always cranked the starter, but sometimes the oil & gen lights would go out and the gas gauge would bottom out while cranking. When I let go of the key the lights/gauge would come back to normal and often the engine would start at that point. Sometimes I had to turn the key back to the "home" position and turn it again, but it always started.

At RRC I would turn the key and NOTHING happened so I really thought it was a hot start problem. After I was home a couple of days the same problem came back - no response - but then the next try it cranked but the warning lights were out, then the next try it did nothing. At that point I knew for sure it was not a hot start problem.

Last Saturday I replaced the ignition switch - the old one had a big crack down one side. Since then it starts fine every time and I've even seen higher readings on my stock voltmeter. So much for the "hot start" issue!

QUOTE (brant @ Oct 10 2005, 11:50 PM)

So between you, jeff, and I... thats three cars with hot start relays that still fail.

That's what I keep saying....the wimpy bosch relays suck.

I never have problems with the ford unit.

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Oct 13 2005, 04:56 AM)

QUOTE (brant @ Oct 10 2005, 11:50 PM) So between you, jeff, and I... thats three cars with hot start relays that still fail. That's what I keep saying....the wimpy bosch relays suck. I never have problems with the ford unit.

But you mis understood my post.
I'm saying that there of 3 of us in Colorado WITH the FORD units that are all experiencing failures....


so would the a failing ford unit not allow the circuit to work at all.
or would it just revert back to the stock solinoid power?

(I'm wondering if my ford unit may not be working since I'm experiencing hotstarts with it IN place)

brant

I know I'm being simplistic here, but wouldn't it be easy to narrow this down by shorting the main power to solenoid during failure state?







If this makes it crank, then you know the problem is not the solenoid or starter, but rather somewhere upstream in the starter circuit... such as relay, switch, bad connection in wiring, dirty connections/old wires dropping voltage, etc.

I ended up just running 12 gauge wires from those terminals to a push button switch on the firewall next to the engine lid release. Never a slightest hesitation since. And I can reach it with my head in the engine compartment or while under the car in case I want to turn the motor with the ignition off. Crude I know, but so am I.

QUOTE (brant @ Oct 13 2005, 02:14 PM)

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Oct 13 2005, 04:56 AM) QUOTE (brant @ Oct 10 2005, 11:50 PM) So between you, jeff, and I... thats three cars with hot start relays that still fail. That's what I keep saying....the wimpy bosch relays suck. I never have problems with the ford unit. But you mis understood my post. I'm saying that there of 3 of us in Colorado WITH the FORD units that are all experiencing failures.... so would the a failing ford unit not allow the circuit to work at all. or would it just revert back to the stock solinoid power? (I'm wondering if my ford unit may not be working since I'm experiencing hotstarts with it IN place) brant

Actually Brant, mine is the Bosch kit, not the Ford relay. And I know the starter needs to be replaced, becaus eif I tap on it directly with a hammer while someone cranks the key, it will turn over and start the car. Yet all this time the fuse for the Bosch kit is intact.

I always thought that the primary benefit of the relay kit was to take the major voltage off of the ignition switch and essentially remove the ignition switch as the weakl link. Actually solving the problem of a sticky starter and or solenoid, no.

Where are the electrical geniuses?

QUOTE (Rand @ Oct 13 2005, 12:40 PM)

I ended up just running 12 gauge wires from those terminals to a push button switch on the firewall next to the engine lid release. Never a slightest hesitation since. And I can reach it with my head in the engine compartment or while under the car in case I want to turn the motor with the ignition off. Crude I know, but so am I.

Make sure the switch you used is rated for the current. I bought another (non 914) car from someone who couldn't figger out why the ignition switch didn't work. They put a switch across the starter like you just stated. That switch got flakey after awhile and it would stay closed. The starter wouldn't disengage after I released the button.
Not Cool! My starter sat there cranking while I scrambled for a awrench to disconnect the battery. It still need the key to make the coil hot, but you could bump the starter without the key.


I eventually traced the real problem to the neutral safety switch and fixed it right.

I think if I wanted a remote start, I would still use the relay to do it. You don't need half the switch to handle the job.

QUOTE (Gint @ Oct 13 2005, 03:35 PM)

I always thought that the primary benefit of the relay kit was to take the major voltage off of the ignition switch and essentially remove the ignition switch as the weakl link. Actually solving the problem of a sticky starter and or solenoid, no. Where are the electrical geniuses?

The relay does two things if wired correctly:

1. It eliminates the voltage drop from the solenoid current through the total resistance between the battery terminal through ignition switch and back out to the starter. This drop can be as much as 3 volts with a good ignition switch, meaning your starter solenoid is seeing only about 9V assuming a fully charged battery. As the ignition switch wears, or if the battery is not fully charged then the voltage will be lower.

2. Since the ignition switch is not taking the brunt of the solenoid current it should last longer. But since other parts of the switch are handling high currents this may be a small advantage as it will wear out eventually anyway.

QUOTE (brant @ Oct 13 2005, 04:14 PM)

so would the a failing ford unit not allow the circuit to work at all. or would it just revert back to the stock solinoid power?

If the ford soleniod fails your starter is dead...no power to the soleniod.

If the starter is pooched a relay isn't going to help.

If you have ever taken an automotive solenoid apart, you would see that the contacts are massive compared to the square Bosch relays. I haven't broken open a Ford, but I would assume it is designed along the same lines as any starter solenoid and the contacts would be larger and beefier.

Yep, I'm dreamin!

Oh, to test the Ford solenoid itself, you merely hook the (-) lead of a battery pack (or such) to the mounting plate of the solenoid. Take the (+) and hook it to one of the large terminals. Take a wire from the (+) terminal and touch each of the small studs on the solenoid. One will make it click if it's functional. You can also leave the power attached, and with a VOM, measure the voltage at the other large terminal and small terminal. With the solenoid engaged, they should both read the battery voltage you are using.