Starter Booster, I hate to revisit this topic, but... Options

[jsteele22]

Okay, so this thread is a little old, but maybe a bump will get some replies.

My car came with a stock (remanufactured) starter and a hot start relay. At first, I never encountered problems. Then, if I drove for a long time (1 hour +) I had the hot start problem (solenoid/starter would not engage, had to push start). Now, it seems that I get the hot start problem whenever I get the engine up to full operating temperature. So something is getting worse.

Since I already have the relay, the only two options left are the hi-torqe starter like the one on Ebay mini starter or the Ford solenoid.

A couple of questions :

1) Can someone give a part number for this solenoid or (year/model of car that uses it) so I know what to ask for. FLAPS guys can never find anything unless you ask for something very specific. Also, about what does this cost ?

2) How does the mini-starter fit ? Does it stick up any closer to the trunk floor than the stock one ? I'm in the early stages of a Subaru install, and I don't want to run iinto fitting issues...

Thanks

[jsteele22]

Actually, I've been searching even deeper into the archives, and I'm beginning to think that the term "Ford Solenoid" got used to mean "Ford Relay". (Of course, a relay does contain a solenoid, so it's kind of a grey distinction...).

Since I usually don't drive very far unless I go up into the mountains (where there tend to be hilly spots to park) I may try the wire cleanup and see if that helps. But any feedback on the starter on Ebay would be appreciated...

[914GT]

You really don't need the 'Ford relay'. You can use the small square 25A general purpose relays hanging up on blister packages at your local FLAPS for a starter solenoid relay. You can see mine connected in the upper right corner of this picture:

[DJsRepS]

I dont see why any one needs any realy the germans didnt put in there to begin with. There is a real problem and the relay is a patch. Nice exaust there. My pipes dont go up like that on my 80hp 1.7. I like the way they are wrapped so neat too. Nice workmanship sweet.

[brant]

I've had cars with the ford relay still not start.
I replaced the solinoid too, and still had a hot start condition.


If the ford relay failed, would the car still start cold?

I can say that I've never had a high-torque fail on me, so I think I'll try that in the street car when I get it back on the road this winter.


whats the failure mode of the ford relay anyone?

brant

[jsteele22]

So my car already came with a relay and is having the hot start problem I was confused at first when I saw references to a "Ford Solenoid", which I thought meant that people were removing the Porsche/VW/Bosch starter solenoid from their starter and replacing it with something from Ford. Then I gathered that what they really meant was a "Ford Relay", which does me no good as I already have a relay.

Some people look down on the relay as a bandaid or cheap fix, but to me it makes perfect sense. Any time you want to deliver power to a load (like the starter), you don't want to dissipate it somewhere else (like along 20 feet of crusty old wire.) The other "easy fix" which I haven't tried yet, and which also makes perfect sense, is to clean up the ground and battery connections : the same idea, really - just reduce unneccesary resistance from the circuit.

I noticed that I had hot start problems on Saturday (beautiful warm weather) but not on Sunday (chilly, wet weather), so I would imagine some sort of heat shielding (but not quite as nice as Brant's) would be of some help.

But I think the real solution (apart from buying a new starter...) would be a cable that pulls a spring-loaded hammer back and then lets go. Think we can get a group buy together ???

[914GT]

I don't know about the hammer idea, but I know there have been times I wanted to take a hammer to the whole damn car. When they designed these cars, or after the bean counters got done analyzing where to cut costs, they did not have a lot of margin built in. The electrical system is a known problem area due to the small wire gauge causing excessive voltage drops. The starter circuit up through the ignition switch is a good example. When everything is in good condition it will work in most parts of the country. But with wear and tear on the ignition switch, oxidized grounds, a worn starter, and high temperatures what little operating margin you had disappears. I had a hot-start problem with my V8 on a 110 deg. day even with a new ignition switch, new IMI starter, and a fresh battery. I took care of it my wrapping the exhaust pipes to reduce heat transfer to the starter motor, and installed the relay for good measure. The relay eliminated the 3 V drop I was seeing to the starter solenoid, and it makes sure the solenoid engages well even on the hottest days here in Arizona. The whole idea is to improve the car's reliability as much as possible.

[Mark Henry]

Most late fords didn't have a soleniod on the starter...it's up on the fender. It dosen't have to push a bendix to be called a solenoid. The ford solenoid is a true solenoid, where as most relays tend to have very small contact points.

Most times guys that say this fix dosen't work in the very next breath say that they tried the small VW Ghia horn relay.

I have only had one die... do to rust on a winter beater...it quit and never worked again.

[ClayPerrine]

I had this problem on Betty's car for years. Put in the relay like the factory bulletin said. It worked OK for a while, but the relay stuck one day, so I removed it. Started having the problem again.


Permanent fix was a high torque starter. Multiple 100 degree plus days and I have not had a problem yet.

I have them on both cars now.

[brant]

QUOTE (jsteele22 @ Oct 10 2005, 04:08 PM)

So my car already came with a relay and is having the hot start problem I was confused at first when I saw references to a "Ford Solenoid", which I thought meant that people were removing the Porsche/VW/Bosch starter solenoid from their starter and replacing it with something from Ford. Then I gathered that what they really meant was a "Ford Relay", which does me no good as I already have a relay. Some people look down on the relay as a bandaid or cheap fix, but to me it makes perfect sense. Any time you want to deliver power to a load (like the starter), you don't want to dissipate it somewhere else (like along 20 feet of crusty old wire.) The other "easy fix" which I haven't tried yet, and which also makes perfect sense, is to clean up the ground and battery connections : the same idea, really - just reduce unneccesary resistance from the circuit. I noticed that I had hot start problems on Saturday (beautiful warm weather) but not on Sunday (chilly, wet weather), so I would imagine some sort of heat shielding (but not quite as nice as Brant's) would be of some help. But I think the real solution (apart from buying a new starter...) would be a cable that pulls a spring-loaded hammer back and then lets go. Think we can get a group buy together ???

Jeff,

you crack me up..
I love it.
I definitely want in on the group buy...


p.s. not my pretty heat shielding.. although I agree, nice picture hey!

brant

[Gint]

QUOTE (jsteele22 @ Oct 10 2005, 05:08 PM)

But I think the real solution (apart from buying a new starter...) would be a cable that pulls a spring-loaded hammer back and then lets go.  Think we can get a group buy together ??? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1128985729.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

That's exactly what I had to do on our run the weekend before last (you should have joined us Jeff). Except I was the "BFH solenoid" while the kid cranked the key.

And mine has a hot start relay kit on it also. I bought it that way and I understand why it might be beneficial, but preventing the common "914 hot start" problem isn't it. It needs a new starter.

[brant]

So between you, jeff, and I...
thats three cars with hot start relays that still fail.

weird thing is that I have tried 3 different starters on mine (all with the hot start relay) and all 3 failed....

granted they were used starters so I didn't really expect all three of them to work...
but the point I'm trying to make is, "why are all 3 of us still having failures with the relay in place"

Gint, how does the relay fail.
could it be that my relay is bad and thats why it isn't boosting my power to any of the 3 starters I tried....

or when the relay fails it is just open.. (this seems more logical to me)

anyways
hope you get your car and your starter working this weekend.
I'll be in NY so will see you all in a week.
brant

[ThinAir]

I thought I had a hot start problem at RRC, but it "cured" itself on Saturday and I drove it all the way home on Sunday and never had another problem.

I knew before the event that I had a problem with the ignition switch. It always cranked the starter, but sometimes the oil & gen lights would go out and the gas gauge would bottom out while cranking. When I let go of the key the lights/gauge would come back to normal and often the engine would start at that point. Sometimes I had to turn the key back to the "home" position and turn it again, but it always started.

At RRC I would turn the key and NOTHING happened so I really thought it was a hot start problem. After I was home a couple of days the same problem came back - no response - but then the next try it cranked but the warning lights were out, then the next try it did nothing. At that point I knew for sure it was not a hot start problem.

Last Saturday I replaced the ignition switch - the old one had a big crack down one side. Since then it starts fine every time and I've even seen higher readings on my stock voltmeter. So much for the "hot start" issue!

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (brant @ Oct 10 2005, 11:50 PM)

So between you, jeff, and I... thats three cars with hot start relays that still fail.

That's what I keep saying....the wimpy bosch relays suck. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)

I never have problems with the ford unit. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[brant]

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Oct 13 2005, 04:56 AM)

QUOTE (brant @ Oct 10 2005, 11:50 PM) So between you, jeff, and I... thats three cars with hot start relays that still fail. That's what I keep saying....the wimpy bosch relays suck. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) I never have problems with the ford unit. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

But you mis understood my post.
I'm saying that there of 3 of us in Colorado WITH the FORD units that are all experiencing failures....


so would the a failing ford unit not allow the circuit to work at all.
or would it just revert back to the stock solinoid power?

(I'm wondering if my ford unit may not be working since I'm experiencing hotstarts with it IN place)

brant

[Rand]

I know I'm being simplistic here, but wouldn't it be easy to narrow this down by shorting the main power to solenoid during failure state?

(IMG:http://4nets.com/baldwinpowersports/images/starterscrewdriver.jpg)





If this makes it crank, then you know the problem is not the solenoid or starter, but rather somewhere upstream in the starter circuit... such as relay, switch, bad connection in wiring, dirty connections/old wires dropping voltage, etc.

I ended up just running 12 gauge wires from those terminals to a push button switch on the firewall next to the engine lid release. Never a slightest hesitation since. And I can reach it with my head in the engine compartment or while under the car in case I want to turn the motor with the ignition off. Crude I know, but so am I.

[Gint]

QUOTE (brant @ Oct 13 2005, 02:14 PM)

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Oct 13 2005, 04:56 AM) QUOTE (brant @ Oct 10 2005, 11:50 PM) So between you, jeff, and I... thats three cars with hot start relays that still fail. That's what I keep saying....the wimpy bosch relays suck. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) I never have problems with the ford unit. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) But you mis understood my post. I'm saying that there of 3 of us in Colorado WITH the FORD units that are all experiencing failures.... so would the a failing ford unit not allow the circuit to work at all. or would it just revert back to the stock solinoid power? (I'm wondering if my ford unit may not be working since I'm experiencing hotstarts with it IN place) brant

Actually Brant, mine is the Bosch kit, not the Ford relay. And I know the starter needs to be replaced, becaus eif I tap on it directly with a hammer while someone cranks the key, it will turn over and start the car. Yet all this time the fuse for the Bosch kit is intact.

I always thought that the primary benefit of the relay kit was to take the major voltage off of the ignition switch and essentially remove the ignition switch as the weakl link. Actually solving the problem of a sticky starter and or solenoid, no.

Where are the electrical geniuses?

[jasons]

QUOTE (Rand @ Oct 13 2005, 12:40 PM)

I ended up just running 12 gauge wires from those terminals to a push button switch on the firewall next to the engine lid release. Never a slightest hesitation since. And I can reach it with my head in the engine compartment or while under the car in case I want to turn the motor with the ignition off. Crude I know, but so am I.

Make sure the switch you used is rated for the current. I bought another (non 914) car from someone who couldn't figger out why the ignition switch didn't work. They put a switch across the starter like you just stated. That switch got flakey after awhile and it would stay closed. The starter wouldn't disengage after I released the button.
Not Cool! My starter sat there cranking while I scrambled for a awrench to disconnect the battery. It still need the key to make the coil hot, but you could bump the starter without the key.


I eventually traced the real problem to the neutral safety switch and fixed it right.

I think if I wanted a remote start, I would still use the relay to do it. You don't need half the switch to handle the job.

[914GT]

QUOTE (Gint @ Oct 13 2005, 03:35 PM)

I always thought that the primary benefit of the relay kit was to take the major voltage off of the ignition switch and essentially remove the ignition switch as the weakl link. Actually solving the problem of a sticky starter and or solenoid, no. Where are the electrical geniuses?

The relay does two things if wired correctly:

1. It eliminates the voltage drop from the solenoid current through the total resistance between the battery terminal through ignition switch and back out to the starter. This drop can be as much as 3 volts with a good ignition switch, meaning your starter solenoid is seeing only about 9V assuming a fully charged battery. As the ignition switch wears, or if the battery is not fully charged then the voltage will be lower.

2. Since the ignition switch is not taking the brunt of the solenoid current it should last longer. But since other parts of the switch are handling high currents this may be a small advantage as it will wear out eventually anyway.

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (brant @ Oct 13 2005, 04:14 PM)

so would the a failing ford unit not allow the circuit to work at all. or would it just revert back to the stock solinoid power?

If the ford soleniod fails your starter is dead...no power to the soleniod.

If the starter is pooched a relay isn't going to help.