914 market update, in this months excellence mag Options

[Part Pricer]

I believe that either the poster or the admins should delete that image taken from Excellence. It is copyrighted material that is not in the public domain and it has been used without permission. Not only is it wrong, it puts this site and Sir Andy at risk.

Pete is a good friend and contributor to this site. We should respect him and the work that he does. Posting information such as this could result in fewer incremental newsstand sales for his magazine. I, for one, want Pete to sell as many magazines as possible.

Last month, when we were discussing the article that Eric Shea had written for Excellence, Pete said that it would be OK if we posted the article only after we waited two months.

[redshift]

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Sep 27 2005, 07:42 AM)

I agree with Miles.

A nd so began the fall of Rome.

[goose2]

OK OK...I've deleted the post, and to anyone who may feel ripped-off, endangered, insulted, or otherwise compromised by my transgression...my apology is sincere. This group has been so incredibly supportive and helpful to me in the past, I just jumped on an opportunity to contribute something you all were asking for without thinking of the consequences. It won't happen again.

[goose2]

Furthermore....I see scans of magazine articles, covers, and other people's photos all the time here. Maybe it would be good for someone with legal knowledge to post some guidelines regarding this sort of stuff. It honestly never occurred to me that I was crossing any lines. If the folks at Excellence are reading this, it would be helpful to get their take on it.

[Part Pricer]

Copyright laws are not easily summarized. However, you can check out the Copyright Office FAQs

The position of Excellence magazine is pretty clear. From their masthead:

QUOTE

Copyright © 2005 by Ross Periodicals, Inc. All rights reserved. Reprinting, in whole or in part, is expressly forbidden except by written permission of the publisher.

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (goose2 @ Sep 27 2005, 08:29 AM)

Furthermore....I see scans of magazine articles, covers, and other people's photos all the time here. Maybe it would be good for someone with legal knowledge to post some guidelines regarding this sort of stuff. It honestly never occurred to me that I was crossing any lines. If the folks at Excellence are reading this, it would be helpful to get their take on it.

As Paul said, they're not easily summarized, but I'll try, anyway.

The copyright holder is granted the exclusive right to use the material they've copyrighted. If you ask for and are granted their permission, you can post the content. Copyrights last for a finite time. Originally, this was only a few years (17 years springs to mind). This has been extended over the years until it's now pretty much forever in the US (something like the lifetime of the copyright holder plus a good number of years). There is a out for "fair use", which allows copying. Exactly what constitutes "fair use" is highly debatable. If a student uses a copier at a library to take portions of a reference work for use in their scholarly pursuits, that's generally considered fair use. Copying the material, rebinding it, and selling it, is very much not fair use. Legally, posting the table on this board is murky. You (and no one else) is really gaining commercially from posting it.

My personal position is that for a publication like Excellence, which is readily available to members of this board, supports our hobby, and is the bread-and-butter for a board member, that being polite is much more important than being legal, so ask permission. Legally, you're on very thin ice posting it, non-commercial use or no, since you're depriving the copyright holder from sales (potentially). For material scanned from a 20-30 year old magazine you could only buy from a used bookstore or suchlike, if at all, I have no problem with posting. In the latter case, you're pretty safe legally. The copyright likely has expired, and even if it hasn't, no real harm is being done to the copyright holder, as they've long since realized all revenue from the material.

[TJB/914]

Children, Children, if I didn't know better it's like listening to diarrhea of the mouth Ray Naggin (mayor of New Orleans) & Kathleen Blanco (Gov. of Lousiana).

Get used to it 914's are growing in value!!!

Times are changing and general car collectors are accepting our cars. I predict the Porsche factory will soon give reference to 914's in future advertisements. It's comming. We have achieved collector status.

My 2-cents worth.
Tom
BTW
I had my car at a local gathering and offered $25K by a person who didn't want the hassle of fixing one up. He was a person who just wanted an old Porsche in his garage to impress the neighbors. It's For Sale @ $30K if anyone is interested.

Congratulations to Mark Hotchkis & Eric Madisen, they are doing their part for the 914 community.

[GaroldShaffer]

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Sep 27 2005, 09:34 AM)

I had my car at a local gathering and offered $25K by a person who didn't want the hassle of fixing one up.  He was a person who just wanted an old Porsche in his garage to impress the neighbors.   It's For Sale @ $30K if anyone is interested.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/drooley.gif) would you take a post dated check (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/drunk.gif)

[horizontally-opposed]

Alright, you guys ROCK!

I've been away from the (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/type.gif) for a while and it's just plain refreshing to see the enthusiasm, friendship, and respect this board has. For all the garbage people argue over, there's more camaraderie here than a lot of places in the Porsche world. And I am definitely feelin' the love... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

As for the "Excellence" take on things, we probably won't go after someone for posting up some information taken from an article with attribution -- so long as it's not the ACTUAL content (or a large percentage of the content). For legal reasons -- and to protect us and our contributors against those who want to push the limits -- we have to retain the right to do so, however.

If we choose to give permission to publish it, then have at it! (We have in the past, mostly to club newsletters in need of content. All we asked for was attribution and the contributor's permission, too.)

And we certainly benefit from all the discussion here (so long as it doesn't get nasty) -- so for that I am always thankful.

Personally, I do hate it when people take someone's published, copyrighted stuff w/o permission and post it on the web. Just because an individual has decided to gift something to the Porsche community doesn't mean that those who make their living should be expected to. And, often enough, they usually DO give the rights when they're asked nicely. It's just that it's their livelihood, too.

As for supporting magazines, we don't deserve your support unless we earn it. Hopefully, a magazine does that through interesting articles, good reading, solid information, objective reporting, and useful advertising -- all for a reasonable price. It's a circle really -- the advertisers need a good vehicle that reaches their target market, the reader needs/wants information on what they're interested in, and we need both to survive (obviously).

All that crap aside, I've been grinning my way through this post.

The debate is a good one, and I too worry about 914 values going up. Hal Thoms, one of our staff photogs and an all around 356 NUT (!), used to have a Speedster. Then his kids went to school, so he sold it to finance their college educations (hard not to do when you need a $100K and that old car you've had for 30 years is just sitting there in the garage). I think that's awesome, but it also saddens me. He'll never be able to buy another one, and I can't imagine a better owner for that car. Sorta like I can't imagine "better" owners for 914s than the vrew here. There's such a diversity here, from high-school students to retirees to saints to hooligans to you name it. I doubt the same can be said for (most) 356 people these days. As the prices go up, the hardcore enthusiasts are often forced out -- along with some of the most colorful personalities.

On the other hand, it's refreshing to see the cars starting to get the credit that's always been due them but somehow never fully realized.

But, either way, to take my personal concerns into editing the book would be wrong.

As to the prices in the Market Updates, I'd say this is the part of the book that concerns me the most. They are NOT, according to Anderson, influenced by the Reader Sales Reports. The purpose of those is to act as a reality check to the statistics collected by Anderson from several sources. I should update what those are, as the used car and Porsche markets have changed a lot in the last 5 years or so.

The biggest challenges with market values for Porsches are the small sample sizes as well as national hot- and cold-spots for any given model -- as reflected by some of the posts above. We do our best, then see what the RSRs reflect.

Of course, someone with bad intentions can indeed skew the results, but that would be nearly impossible to police and paranoid to actually worry about on a large level...

Now watch me live to eat those words... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/slap.gif)

pete

P.S. Whew! Sorry for my (as-usual) long-ass post. I need an editor!

P. P.S. Perry, I would LOVE to see that Twin Trunks Tribune piece. My only copy is probably in the basement someplace in my parents house. But then maybe you SHOULDN'T post it. For it might SUCK! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[lotus_65]

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Sep 27 2005, 12:34 PM)

...  We have achieved collector status.  ...

... and the 2 coolest things about that are the incredible platform to work from, and this club.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[goose2]

Thanks for the reply and clarification Pete....next time I'll ask.....and your magazine rocks!

[TJB/914]

Ok that's it. I am never going to sell my 914. Took it for a drive downtown Plymouth to the local coffee shop for a brew. Lots of local teens were sitting around. One of the pretty young ones said "your car is hot". I guess comming from someone with purple hair, lots of piercings & wearing a spiked dog collar it was a compliment??? I said your hot too & we both smiled.

Tom
BTW
What a perfect day for a ride. Weather is warm (low 70's with a hint of fall) and one of the last days of driving without heat on. It's always a thrill going through the gears with that modified 2.0 liter singing behind you. If I sold my 914, I would buy a Bxstr. than be just another pretty face in traffic. I just want to belong to this special club of 914 addicts!!!! You guys are special and so are our 914's.

[lotus_65]

OH, feel the love! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wub.gif)

[Jamie]

FYI, and thanks to Mickey Mouse(Disney Studios), copyrights are now for the life of the author + 75 yrs. Before Mickey lobbied Congress a couple of yrs. ago, it was 50 yrs.- whoda thunk a mouse had that kind of pull??!!

[dbledsoe]

Pete,

Thank you for your perspective, insight, and your understanding. I was quite sure that the poster meant no disrespect to you, or Excellence Magazine. He was simply enthusiastic about sharing your research, and giving credit for it. Thanks to this topic I now have a better understanding of copyrights. I applaud your consideration for his, and my, mistaken point of view.

Don Bledsoe
Boise, Idaho

[goose2]

QUOTE

He was simply enthusiastic about sharing your research, and giving credit for it. Thanks to this topic I now have a better understanding of copyrights. I applaud your consideration for his, and my, mistaken point of view.

Ditto...and thanks Don

[IronHillRestorations]

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Sep 27 2005, 10:34 AM)

P. P.S. Perry, I would LOVE to see that Twin Trunks Tribune piece. My only copy is probably in the basement someplace in my parents house. But then maybe you SHOULDN'T post it. For it might SUCK!  :D

Let's just say it did require a bit of editing. After all it was a pretty small magazine!

Gee, could I scan it and post it without impunity??? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Better yet! Run a four page color feature story about my 914 restoration shop, or I publish the entire story, UNEDITED!!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

[Dead Air]

QUOTE (lotus_65 @ Sep 26 2005, 09:59 AM)

fyi a fairly comprehensive report & looks good for us (and those who restore them).

[QUOTE]

"What does the article say?" is a resonable request.

This thread is like a posting that says:

AEROCRAFT mag says 2.0L good for 190 HP in home built.

And then the post says "pretty cool, Huh?"

tell us "what" the article says, not a reprint....DUH!!!

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

[horizontally-opposed]

Perry...

Sorry, we leave those "Specialist Topics" to our competition (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)

Of course, I can pledge to do a six-pager on your shop in loose leaf format inside of all subscriber copies heading for your zip code. No guarantees that they won't fall out, tho' (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

I say scan it and let the flaming begin. I promise I won''t sue. I don't care too much...hey, I was but a punk kid working at Costco as a "security guard" back then.

Maybe I still AM a punk kid... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

pete

[Andyrew]

I'd just like to know the prices on average... 3 prices would be nice... 1.7/1.8, 2.0 and 6.

I WILL buy any excellence magazine with 914's covered in extent in them. BUT as to the fact that its not in my stores....