Suspension swap, Swap 911/930 front suspension to my 914 Options

[rickyhgarcia]

QUOTE

BTW, my V8 914 has 911 Boge struts, Automotion conversion kit for Koni adjustable inserts, Brad replaced my "S" w/ "A" calipers, 8" wheels...

Eric,

I thought you mentioned earlier in this thread that 914 inserts simply fit the 911 Boge struts. neo914-6 mentions a conversion kit to these struts to make them compatible with the 914 insert.

I checked the Automotion website...they call it a "Front Cap Nut For Boge Struts."

What gives?

[Eric_Shea]

QUOTE

What gives?

You asking me or Felix? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

I took me 2 pages to figure out what was on your car... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol3.gif)

[jsteele22]

Just came across this thread. Lots of great info.

I have a qustion that (kinda) fits in this thread : Is a 911 front swaybar (of the early through-body design) the same as the 914 swaybar, or at least similar enough to work with a stock 914 front end ?

I know I'll need to remove the gas tank and do some drilling/cutting as described in the PP tech note, and also that I'll need to add the U-tabs to attach the drop links to the A-arms. But I just wanted to make sure that

a) The geometry of the bar is the same (pretty sure it is)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif) The drop links from the 911 bar will fit the U-tabs.

Based on what I've learned here, I'm pretty sure it will work, but I really don't want to find the hard way if I'm wrong..

Also, is a 15mm sway bar decent for a street car ?

Thx

[rickyhgarcia]

QUOTE

I agree, there's probably a large contingent that just swap them out and call it a day, but, I think there's an equally large contingent that know what's going on with inserts... you simply don't run 911SC Bilstein inserts on a 914 (as you now know).

Just this last week there were a couple of threads initiated in this forum where a member asked if a 914 insert simply fit a 911 strut...and another member answered "I did it in my car and it was OK" so it will be OK with you. Up until the the SC model, Porsche sold up to 4 different models of 911 each year plus a 912. I imagine that Porsche, being a performance oriented manufacturer, used different setting for all these different models. It is not as simple as just swap components and that is it, especially since the lightest of the production 911 (i.e. 1964) is already 230lbs heavier than a 914. A 911 front end swap should be carefully planned and the right components obtained based on the final configuration desired. I now got exactly what I wanted.

QUOTE

I agree wholeheartedly that the inserts should match the car not the strut, so, if this thread will help more people understand that then it's a good thing. I already had someone PM me last night worried about buying a 914 now that has a 911 front end on it... this is the wrong message to send.

I would not call this a wrong message...actually the buyer is more carefull as to what he/she is buying. A 914 is an low power car with great handling characteristics. So, why buy one that is already set incorrectly suspension wise? Personally, after my experience with the SC front end, I do not think that a 911 front end should be used a selling point for these cars unless it is set correctly.

QUOTE

Buy a 911 front suspension, if that's what you want. Drop some 914 inserts in it and go, go, go... If you're going the serious 3.5" (Koni/Bilstein) route then it's still cheaper and easier to get custom valved inserts than it is to have all the chopping and welding done. Chris Foley charges $225.00 for the spindle operation alone. Then you've got to modify the ears...

This is exactly what I got. You are concern that I may paid more than necessary, and I may have. (Although just because at that time I did not know about Chris Foley...he may have done the work for his advertised price of $225.00 since I had all the parts.) But I wanted 911S alloy calipers (i.e. 3.5" ears), 914 inserts, 17mm raised spindle and 5-bolt conversion. By using an OE 914 strut, I eliminated all the guess work as to which is the correct insert. The cut and paste approach in my setup was inevitable since I wanted to raised the spindle. Besides I wanted to replace the Bilsteins inserts with Konis because I wanted the adjustability.


I think that I finally have the optimun suspension setup for my driving habits. I wanted a street performance car with the ocassional PCA weekend A/X´s. I did not think about engine mods until my suspension was to my liking. I think I have finally achieved my suspension goals, therefore, I just recently bought a big engine kit from Jake Raby.

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (rickyhgarcia @ Apr 2 2006, 05:04 PM)

QUOTE BTW, my V8 914 has 911 Boge struts, Automotion conversion kit for Koni adjustable inserts, Brad replaced my "S" w/ "A" calipers, 8" wheels... Eric, I thought you mentioned earlier in this thread that 914 inserts simply fit the 911 Boge struts. neo914-6 mentions a conversion kit to these struts to make them compatible with the 914 insert. I checked the Automotion website...they call it a "Front Cap Nut For Boge Struts." What gives?

Ricky,

You made me dig up my old receipts to show how well my memory doesn't serve me. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) I actually got them from "Porsheaven" in '89 and they are listed as 911E strut conv PS-911. When Brad worked on my car in ~03, he had to fab or weld something as they were loose in the strut. He or Andy may remember...

Did more investigation, looks like I bought 911 struts to AVOID:

QUOTE

911 (1965-1977) Suspension 911 1970 HYDRO PNEUMATIC STRUTS Back to 911 (1965-1977) Question Answer RECENTLY PURCHASED A 1970 911 E COUPE.THE CAR WAS IN STORAGE FOR OVER 32 YEARS. THE FRONT END WAS ALMOST TOUCHING THE GROUND AND IT WAS THEN I STARTED LEARNING ABOUT HYDRO PNEUMATIC STRUTS. I HAVE GONE TO THE PORSCHE MANUAL AND FOLLOWED THE DIRECTIONS TO TRY TO PUMP THEM UP BUT NO LUCK. I HAVE TO ASSUME THEY ARE BAD.SINCE THEY ARE NO LONGER MADE BY BOGE/SACHS, THEIR NO AMERICA TECH MGR REFERED ME TO EUROPE'S FACTORY TECH GUY BUT NO WORD BACK.I HAVE SEVERAL QUESTIONS: DOES ANYONE IN THE STATES RE BUILD THEM? ARE THERE ANY SOURCES YOU CAN THINK OF THAT MAY HAVE NEW OR SERVICABLE PAIRS? LASTLY.....CAN I CONVERT THESE TO THE STANDARD 911 SUSPENSION AND WHAT PARTS ARE REQUIRED OVER AND ABOVE THE HYDRO PNEUMATICS SET UP? DOES PORSCHE HAVE ANY SERVICE MANUAL TO CONVERT IN LIGHT OF THE OUT OF MANUFACTURE CONDITION ON THE STRUTS? LOTS OF BUM STEERS SO FAR, NO FACTS.CAN YOU HELP? Those were not one of Porsches' greatest engineering marvels. To my knowledge there is no factory support or anyone else's for that matter that I'm aware of. At one time Koni made a adapter kit that consisted of aluminum bushings to let you install a standard shock into the pneumatic strut. I doubt you would even find that anymore. The usual fix was to entirely convert the suspension to a standard strut and torsion bar set-up. Besides the strut itself, you will likely need the lower control arms, since I don't believe the originals had the splines for the torsion bars. I have never seen any official mention of this conversion, it's just something every one knew about back then. Ed Mayo - PCA WebSite - 8/10/2004

[Eric_Shea]

Ricky,

I do believe we can officially 'drop it' now.

Your "What Gives?" comment was bore out to be the Hydropneumatic struts that, in a previous post in this thread, I warned people to stay away from. You can spend the rest of the thread trying to prove me wrong if need be... it's up to you.

I decided to weigh in on this thread because of your comment:

QUOTE

911 front struts are not the best option for a 914 because you can only install inserts that are designed for 911 chassis dynamics

QUOTE

I would not call this a wrong message

I would.

That's the line I'm disputing. That's where you are misinforming the members of this board. This is flat out incorrect and I still feel you were steering people the wrong way, especially when you are steering them to a $750 strut mod (plus the cost of struts) when all you really needed was a $55 per Bilstein revalve. You mention later that you meant "INSERTS" when in the above statement you mention both struts and inserts in their proper context.

QUOTE

You are concern that I may paid more than necessary, and I may have.

No I'm not. Your money is already spent. I'm concerned, as I've seen people weight in on this thread, that you are misinforming people about 911 front suspensions and as stated above, pointing them to a mod that will cost them $640 dollars more than getting their inserts revalved by Bilstein.

Ricky, if I've offended you by quoting what I presume to be the facts about 911 struts, inserts and front ends on 914's then I am truely sorry. That was not my intent.

If you think I'm bashing your setup or choices, "I'm not". I know Rich and I am more than certain the work he's performed is worth what you paid and will live up to the integrity of every product he's offered... top notch. You have an excellent suspension now. In your words, it's the optimun suspension setup for your driving habits. WTG! For some, that's an endless search and can be considered priceless. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

QUOTE

after my experience with the SC front end, I do not think that a 911 front end should be used a selling point for these cars unless it is set correctly

Thank you for being an example. Sorry it cost you so much. If you're learning as you go along, which it seems you are, then learn. Please stop attempting to make me out to be the bad guy here. OK?

914club

911 suspensions 'bolt right on' to your 914. Make sure you have your inserts revalved for 914 chassis dynamics or make sure you purchase 914 inserts to put in the strut.

End of story.

[Eric_Shea]

jsteele22

The bars are identical in every aspect EXCEPT the drop links. The 911 droplinks are 1" different.

I posted a picture of it a while back and honestly I don't remember if they are longer or shorter. I think they are 1" shorter.

Regardless, best bet would be to check around here or call Rich at HPH and see if he has any teener droplinks. Then it's, DARE I SAY, a "BOLT ON" application. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol3.gif)

QUOTE

Also, is a 15mm sway bar decent for a street car ?

Excellent choice for a street car. Excellent.

[jsteele22]

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Apr 3 2006, 08:44 AM)

jsteele22 The bars are identical in every aspect EXCEPT the drop links. The 911 droplinks are 1" different. I posted a picture of it a while back and honestly I don't remember if they are longer or shorter. I think they are 1" shorter. Regardless, best bet would be to check around here or call Rich at HPH and see if he has any teener droplinks. Then it's, DARE I SAY, a "BOLT ON" application. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol3.gif) QUOTE Also, is a 15mm sway bar decent for a street car ? Excellent choice for a street car. Excellent.

Great,

Thanks Eric. I'll just hold off on this sway bar, and wait til I find a 914 one.

Jeff

[rickyhgarcia]

QUOTE

I do believe we can officially 'drop it' now.

Peace bro....

[Eric_Shea]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/grouphug.gif)

[John]

QUOTE

The front suspensions are virtually identical in their form and function. I don't think most buyers buy these expecting plug and play improvements. I think they want 5-lug hubs and possibly bigger brakes. I agree, there's probably a large contingent that just swap them out and call it a day, but, I think there's an equally large contingent that know what's going on with inserts... you simply don't run 911SC Bilstein inserts on a 914 (as you now know). QUOTE After all this interchange, however, I would recommend anyone contemplating this upgrade to avoid 911 suspension setups with Koni or Bilstein struts. I myself made the mistake of buying a 911SC setup with Bilstein struts just because I did not know. This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. What you bought was an SC front end. I don't think the purchase was a mistake. I think leaving the 'ultra-wrong' 911SC Bilstein inserts in there was a mistake (as you yourself attest to). For 1/2 the money spent on 914 strut and spindle mods you could have had the proper inserts to slide into your struts.

I have two questions:


1. Where does one buy these "revalved" Bilstein inserts for 914 use?

2. What do you ask for? (I am no shock absorber expert)

I happen to have a pair of Green Bilstein struts (1979 SC) that I'm going to use.

My car will be wide body and for use on the street. (for now) It may graduate to the track eventually.

[Eric_Shea]

See the bottom of page 3.

[Eric_Shea]

I also want to be clear on the pricing for revalving:

For Bilstein's it's fairly inexpensive at $55-65 each. There's not much inside the standard insert to raise the cost.

For the more intricate, adjustable Koni's it's $140 plus any parts that may be needed. Old Koni's might want to have the external adjustment knob added for an additional $30 (no brainer in my book)

This is literally the cost of a new strut however, as we've mentioned in this thread, if you have a 911 Koni strut with the 3.5" mounting ears, there are no off the shelf 914 inserts for them so this revalve is the only way to go to get the best ride for your 914 (this is what I had to do).

Here's the info:

Koni NA
1961 International Way
Hebron, KY 41048
859-586-4100
Talk to Gordon at x343

[John]

Thanks for the info Eric,

I read and re-read the thread.

But I still have the question of when they ask me for specifications to revalve, what specs do I give them???

[Eric_Shea]

QUOTE

what specs do I give them???

I think they'll give 'you' the specs. They already manufacture 914 inserts so they have the info on dampening and rebound on file. Just tell them what you have (like you did here) and tell them what you're putting it on. They'll be able to apply the 914 characteristics to your SC insert.

The Koni 911 and 914 inserts are almost identical BTW with only the high speed dampening being different.

[John]

We thank you for your support.

[rickyhgarcia]

This is what they look like before powder coating....

[rickyhgarcia]

Left...

[rickyhgarcia]

Right...

[Eric_Shea]

Pur-deeeeee (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

Looks like there's some serious spindle gusseting on there as well. This is a good thing as "many" 30 plus year old spindles are now sagging. It's usually not and issue because people tend to like a bit of negative camber but, pretty soon they'll be out of the range of adjustability.