What are my piston options?, I finally got the thing apart. Options

[Matt Monson]

Well,
I finally got off my arse this weekend, and furthered the teardown of my 2.0l. The heads are in like new condition. Everything seems to indicate that this engine had the top end re-done right before it was parked for 3 years. But they pistons are the stockers. I want to up the CR, and want to go beyond what the Euro ones will get me. I am looking for between 9 and 9.5:1. I am wanting to hone my stock cylinders, and drop in a new forged unit. So, what are my options? And sorry if this has been asked before, but my searches didn't bring up much outside of getting stuff from Jake. I want to weigh all the options...

[Aaron Cox]

lots of options in 96mm land.....

Keith blacks and Je's to name a few.
Jake is the man....

[Brett W]

For the price of a set of JEs and some bored and honed stock cylinders you can just about buy a complete Suby motor. Sorry for the Hi-jack.

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (Brett W @ Oct 17 2005, 07:44 AM)

For the price of a set of JEs and some bored and honed stock cylinders you can just about buy a complete Suby motor. Sorry for the Hi-jack.

Well,
I've actually got 6 EJ series longblocks in my garage, including a really rare JDM homologation engine handbuilt by STi. But that's not an option for this car. I wish it was, but things beyond my control don't allow it. Plus it is a very original '74 2.0l with appearance group, so there is some motivation to preserve it's value. Maybe I will find a bagged out teener to build a Subby with down the road...

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 17 2005, 09:04 AM)

QUOTE (Brett W @ Oct 17 2005, 07:44 AM) For the price of a set of JEs and some bored and honed stock cylinders you can just about buy a complete Suby motor.  Sorry for the Hi-jack. Well, I've actually got 6 EJ series longblocks in my garage, including a really rare JDM homologation engine handbuilt by STi. But that's not an option for this car. I wish it was, but things beyond my control don't allow it. Plus it is a very original '74 2.0l with appearance group, so there is some motivation to preserve it's value. Maybe I will find a bagged out teener to build a Subby with down the road...

i got a flared roller that is just dying for a subie (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hijacked.gif)

[Dave_Darling]

Forged pistons are unnecessary unless you're building a real screamer of a motor or going forced induction. They also expand a lot when warm, so you have to set them up with lots of clearance cold and they'll slap like crazy! Just get some nice cast ones.

--DD

[Matt Monson]

Well,
I've got a low mileage Ej25 w/ECU that may become available in a month or two. It is about to go into my RS while I do some headwork and raise the bar again. 225hp just isn't enough. But once I get my "hot" engine back in the car, the stocker becomes just a spare...

But back on topic. Doesn't anyone have any first hand personal experience with pistons they want to share? I know not everyone here can afford to buy one of Jake's $10,000 monsters...

[MarkV]

I bought a set of KB 96mm flat top pistons & bored German cylinders from Jake. Mine are set up with 8.5:1 comp ratio. Best bang for the buck & the machine work was done by someone that knows what he is doing.

[Jake Raby]

I would post on the topic, but the talk of the Suby engine just made me throw up all over my keyboard..

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 17 2005, 09:53 AM)

I would post on the topic, but the talk of the Suby engine just made me throw up all over my keyboard..

Jake,
Please lend your thoughts. There's a good chance you may get my business, but I want to weigh all the options since I have wholesale accounts with EBS and JE, etc. I know you do more than just super high end builds. And noone care argue with your level of knowledge on these engines. I am building something that is a fair bit beyond a stocker. I would like 160hp or so when it is all done...

[Mueller]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 17 2005, 10:53 AM)

I would post on the topic, but the talk of the Suby engine just made me throw up all over my keyboard..

I'm getting tired of the "just put a Subaru in it" as well....we get the damn point, it's been done and can be a good source of cheap, reliable horsepower.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I only USE JE opistons for engines that will receive punishment at over 7,000 RPM for extended periods of time. As time goes on and I push the KB pistons further and further in race applications and severe street engines I get farther from the JEs.

The JE pistons require excess skirt clearance due to their properties and they rattle when they are cold due to this. They also have more crankcase pressurization issues due to the skirt clearances.

Having a wholesale account with EBS or JE isn't gonna score you a set of matched pistons/rings/cylinders for a TIV engine with the correct skirt clearances and plateau finishes for the package...

This is the ultaimate kit for the TIV engine. Bored German cylinders and KB pistons

I have these in my 912E engine and have had them there for 87K miles. I can remove the breather hose from the air filter and after driving 1500 miles there is hardly even a mist of oil that emerges from it... That don't happen with JEs

The KB piston is lighter than the JE and has a better ring pack for a street/dual purpose engine- period.

As for the Suby engine- maybe they should start another damn forum so those guys that would rather really have a WRX instead of a 914 can collaborate together... Makes me wanna take the one I have out back and rittle it with rounds from the mini 14... I might just do that this afternoon I need to check my scope out anyway..

[nebreitling]

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 17 2005, 10:24 AM)

I would like 160hp or so when it is all done...

it sounds like you're just doing a top-end rebuild? ain't no way you're going to come near 160hp using 96's (or anything for that matter) on a stock 2.0 bottom-end.

if you've got a stock cam in there, then you're looking at about 100-110hp tops after some dyno-tuning (with good header). stock cam will (or should) limit what compression you choose to run.

my cammed-2056 w/ header and IDF 44's running 9.65:1 compression on street gas puts about about 120-130hp, seat of the pants. this is with KB's and bored oem jugs. it's fast (the car is also stripped), but not blindingly so.

except in massaged race form, you are going to want some serious displacement to get 160hp. build a stroker.

[Jake Raby]

I concur with the above post.. The strongest 2056 I have ever built for daily driving is 140 HP.

Stroke it!

A 2270 will get you what you need..Or a 2316 will exceed it a bit.. I sell them both in kit form or ultimately complete with programmable EFI.

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Oct 17 2005, 11:15 AM)

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 17 2005, 10:24 AM) I would like 160hp or so when it is all done... it sounds like you're just doing a top-end rebuild? ain't no way you're going to come near 160hp using 96's (or anything for that matter) on a stock 2.0 bottom-end. if you've got a stock cam in there, then you're looking at about 100-110hp tops after some dyno-tuning (with good header). stock cam will (or should) limit what compression you choose to run. my cammed-2056 w/ header and IDF 44's running 9.65:1 compression on street gas puts about about 120-130hp, seat of the pants. this is with KB's and bored oem jugs. it's fast (the car is also stripped), but not blindingly so. except in massaged race form, you are going to want some serious displacement to get 160hp. build a stroker.

I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that this was just a top end rebuild, but it is not. It's being done from the bottom up. And I also never said this was going to be a daily. If it was a daily, I would just do the hated Subby swap and be done with it. This car is mostly going to be club raced with the PCA and RMR. So, compromises to driveability are totally acceptable. But I am also trying to do it as inexpensively as possible at the same time.

And Jake, that is where my comments about my wholesale accounts come it. Not to say that I am some cool guy that was connected. It was to imply that I not going to spend what I consider the big bucks on your parts unless I am convinced they are the best, and that they are not something I can put together myself locally. Nothing against you or your company, but there is a huge bias on this board in your favour, and it makes it really hard in a thread like this to get a breadth of answers.

I do have an excellent machinist at my disposal, as well as James McMillan. as a mechanic, to assist me in building this. If you don't know him, he has been building air cooled engines for 40 years, and has built many a big bore 1720cc 356/912 motor to 160hp. Sure, to do this with my 914 engine, it will require, pistons, cam, headwork, crank and rod work. But I am aware of that up front. And while I value his input (as I do yours) I am the kind of guy who wants as much feedback as I can possibly get before I make my decisions. And thus this thread...

[jhadler]

You didn't say it was gonna be a race car before...

Then your choices on pistons may be very limited.

Read The Rules, Read The Rules, Read The Rules.

Unless you plan on just running DE's and the like, or in unlimited classes (bring your check book and first-born), all sanctioning bodies will have at least some basic rules on engine prep, if not down right draconian restrictions. Decide in advance what class you want to run in, and then see what your engine options are.

Make sure what the rules for your class allow and don't allow. Doube check them. Sometimes a seemingly innocent modification that, to you, has no performance advantage, could still be illegal for your class and bump into a place that's reserved for the trailer-riding-fire-breathing-monsters.

-Josh2

[Jake Raby]

QUOTE

And Jake, that is where my comments about my wholesale accounts come it. Not to say that I am some cool guy that was connected.

Thats fine. .. What those accounts won't do is get compatible parts with no guesswork, from a TIV specialist. I don't build anything else. These parts were not available from me for years (util this past February) my store was opened to satisfy a huge void in the TIV engine world. My engines have been using these parts from day one and attaining the kind of reputation I have been able to doesn't come with second rate, easy to attain, half way developed parts.

Most places you are going to buy parts from are parts shops that don't build a single engine and most have zero first hand experience- thats all the difference in the world by its self.

QUOTE

It was to imply that I not going to spend what I consider the big bucks on your parts unless I am convinced they are the best, and that they are not something I can put together myself locally.

And if you could put them together yourself locally I would not even bother stocking them except for my own engines. Finding good core cylinders, truing them, boring them and then plateau finishing them to a set of pistons and then setting the ring gaps isn't something that can be done in 5 minutes. It sometimes takes me 15 cylinders thrown away to find one good solid set.

QUOTE

Nothing against you or your company, but there is a huge bias on this board in your favour, and it makes it really hard in a thread like this to get a breadth of answers.

And winning the trust of these guys is not easy. It has taken YEARS for guys to trust me the way they do.. So nowdays when someone doubts what they'll get I get a tad bit pissy myself... Do some searches here, on Google and on my forum and if you can find any other parts source or engine builder with a better reputation I'll GIVE you the cylinder and the pistons- Thats not a joke.

If you do the guys on this board and industry wrong you'll get slammed so fast it'll make your head spin- I have worked VERY hard to be fair and being doubted isn't my favorite thing on the planet.. In fact if an engine customer doubts me even 1% I refuse to do their engine!

QUOTE

I do have an excellent machinist at my disposal, as well as James McMillan. as a mechanic, to assist me in building this. If you don't know him, he has been building air cooled engines for 40 years, and has built many a big bore 1720cc 356/912 motor to 160hp. Sure, to do this with my 914 engine, it will require, pistons, cam, headwork, crank and rod work

.
And while I can certainly appreciate that I can also say that he may lack the TIV experience with the more modern parts that you are considering to help you as well as you may believe. The 356 engine and the 616 engine build very differently than the TIV- I build those too (on a very limited basis) and I'm currently working with this build
200 HP Typ 616 Daily driver

These pistons (96mm KB) having their hypereuctectic properties are different from any cast piston and any forged piston in the settings they prefer to run quietly and at their best. I learned this first hand and I'll tell you now that the Mfr of the pistons nor the MFR of the rings can be of assistance, doing it their way resulted in an oil burning pig that rattled like a diesel when it was cold..... Like everything else here I had to do it my way and perfect it..

If you would like to have your machinist bore your cylinders for you- GREAT! ( I hate doing it anyway) and I can supply you with the pistons and rings for him to do so- BUT you'll be on your own with the roughness averages and skirt clearance settings. I sell a lot of the piston only sets.

BUT I won't try to win you over- i'll let you do it like its supposed to happen... Buy somewhere else, get ripped, lied to and pissed on and then buy from me and you'll have no further questions....

Thats what the guys here had to go through with for years before I opened this store.. Can someone else provide you with these parts??? They *might* be able to, but you can't buy the "No guesswork" characteristic and thats priceless in the TIV world.

This engine may appear to be an old flat 4 that anyone can build and some of it IS that simple and other things are not. In fact complacency and lack of caring to find the best way to do things with the TIV is the #1 reason for engine issues......

Excuse the point blankness- I know no other way. (there isn't one)

(Hell, just calling parts shops and asking the guy on the phone what he drove to work today will tell the tale all in it's self, everything in my parking lot is TIV powered)

[Bleyseng]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)


thats why Jake gets my business.

[Jake Raby]

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Oct 17 2005, 01:13 PM)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) thats why Jake gets my business.

and Jake appreciates every dollar...

(Geoff is a repeat and frequent customer)

BTW Geoff, the 9550 cam left on Friday.... I swear I can't keep those damn things in stock!

[Matt Monson]

Jake,
For someone who claims to offer the best product, you are really quick to get insulted and defensive. My inquisitive nature has been taken by you as some doubt about your ability as an engine builder. That was in no way my intent. Maybe if you didn't have so much ego wrapped up in your engines, you wouldn't read so much into my posts. I haven't been around this board too long, but I see these diatribes around once a week.

I really don't doubt that you make the absolute top type IV engines in the world. What I am questioning is the $$$ versus performance of what I want to do. I am not really concerned about max horsepower, or winning races. This car is for fun. But when one get attacked on a board for wanting to assess all the available options, well it isn't any fun.

And as a consumer, I am far less likely to give you my business because I have been brow beaten by you because you have some admitted problem with people inquiring about what other options are. Telling me to go buy the parts elsewhere and talking down to me about how I am going to blow up my engine and then see you are right is no way to get my business. Explaining to me, as an equal, what makes your kits better is a far more effective way to get my business. But with a backlog of orders like you got, I probably mean nothing to you, and you won't miss my business...