Well,
I finally got off my arse this weekend, and furthered the teardown of my 2.0l. The heads are in like new condition. Everything seems to indicate that this engine had the top end re-done right before it was parked for 3 years. But they pistons are the stockers. I want to up the CR, and want to go beyond what the Euro ones will get me. I am looking for between 9 and 9.5:1. I am wanting to hone my stock cylinders, and drop in a new forged unit. So, what are my options? And sorry if this has been asked before, but my searches didn't bring up much outside of getting stuff from Jake. I want to weigh all the options...

lots of options in 96mm land.....

Keith blacks and Je's to name a few.
Jake is the man....

For the price of a set of JEs and some bored and honed stock cylinders you can just about buy a complete Suby motor. Sorry for the Hi-jack.

QUOTE (Brett W @ Oct 17 2005, 07:44 AM)

For the price of a set of JEs and some bored and honed stock cylinders you can just about buy a complete Suby motor. Sorry for the Hi-jack.

Well,
I've actually got 6 EJ series longblocks in my garage, including a really rare JDM homologation engine handbuilt by STi. But that's not an option for this car. I wish it was, but things beyond my control don't allow it. Plus it is a very original '74 2.0l with appearance group, so there is some motivation to preserve it's value. Maybe I will find a bagged out teener to build a Subby with down the road...

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 17 2005, 09:04 AM)

QUOTE (Brett W @ Oct 17 2005, 07:44 AM) For the price of a set of JEs and some bored and honed stock cylinders you can just about buy a complete Suby motor.  Sorry for the Hi-jack. Well, I've actually got 6 EJ series longblocks in my garage, including a really rare JDM homologation engine handbuilt by STi. But that's not an option for this car. I wish it was, but things beyond my control don't allow it. Plus it is a very original '74 2.0l with appearance group, so there is some motivation to preserve it's value. Maybe I will find a bagged out teener to build a Subby with down the road...

i got a flared roller that is just dying for a subie

Forged pistons are unnecessary unless you're building a real screamer of a motor or going forced induction. They also expand a lot when warm, so you have to set them up with lots of clearance cold and they'll slap like crazy! Just get some nice cast ones.

--DD

Well,
I've got a low mileage Ej25 w/ECU that may become available in a month or two. It is about to go into my RS while I do some headwork and raise the bar again. 225hp just isn't enough. But once I get my "hot" engine back in the car, the stocker becomes just a spare...

But back on topic. Doesn't anyone have any first hand personal experience with pistons they want to share? I know not everyone here can afford to buy one of Jake's $10,000 monsters...

I bought a set of KB 96mm flat top pistons & bored German cylinders from Jake. Mine are set up with 8.5:1 comp ratio. Best bang for the buck & the machine work was done by someone that knows what he is doing.

I would post on the topic, but the talk of the Suby engine just made me throw up all over my keyboard..

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 17 2005, 09:53 AM)

I would post on the topic, but the talk of the Suby engine just made me throw up all over my keyboard..

Jake,
Please lend your thoughts. There's a good chance you may get my business, but I want to weigh all the options since I have wholesale accounts with EBS and JE, etc. I know you do more than just super high end builds. And noone care argue with your level of knowledge on these engines. I am building something that is a fair bit beyond a stocker. I would like 160hp or so when it is all done...

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 17 2005, 10:53 AM)

I would post on the topic, but the talk of the Suby engine just made me throw up all over my keyboard..

I'm getting tired of the "just put a Subaru in it" as well....we get the damn point, it's been done and can be a good source of cheap, reliable horsepower....

I only USE JE opistons for engines that will receive punishment at over 7,000 RPM for extended periods of time. As time goes on and I push the KB pistons further and further in race applications and severe street engines I get farther from the JEs.

The JE pistons require excess skirt clearance due to their properties and they rattle when they are cold due to this. They also have more crankcase pressurization issues due to the skirt clearances.

Having a wholesale account with EBS or JE isn't gonna score you a set of matched pistons/rings/cylinders for a TIV engine with the correct skirt clearances and plateau finishes for the package...

This is the ultaimate kit for the TIV engine. Bored German cylinders and KB pistons

I have these in my 912E engine and have had them there for 87K miles. I can remove the breather hose from the air filter and after driving 1500 miles there is hardly even a mist of oil that emerges from it... That don't happen with JEs

The KB piston is lighter than the JE and has a better ring pack for a street/dual purpose engine- period.

As for the Suby engine- maybe they should start another damn forum so those guys that would rather really have a WRX instead of a 914 can collaborate together... Makes me wanna take the one I have out back and rittle it with rounds from the mini 14... I might just do that this afternoon I need to check my scope out anyway..

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 17 2005, 10:24 AM)

I would like 160hp or so when it is all done...

it sounds like you're just doing a top-end rebuild? ain't no way you're going to come near 160hp using 96's (or anything for that matter) on a stock 2.0 bottom-end.

if you've got a stock cam in there, then you're looking at about 100-110hp tops after some dyno-tuning (with good header). stock cam will (or should) limit what compression you choose to run.

my cammed-2056 w/ header and IDF 44's running 9.65:1 compression on street gas puts about about 120-130hp, seat of the pants. this is with KB's and bored oem jugs. it's fast (the car is also stripped), but not blindingly so.

except in massaged race form, you are going to want some serious displacement to get 160hp. build a stroker.

I concur with the above post.. The strongest 2056 I have ever built for daily driving is 140 HP.

Stroke it!

A 2270 will get you what you need..Or a 2316 will exceed it a bit.. I sell them both in kit form or ultimately complete with programmable EFI.

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Oct 17 2005, 11:15 AM)

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 17 2005, 10:24 AM) I would like 160hp or so when it is all done... it sounds like you're just doing a top-end rebuild? ain't no way you're going to come near 160hp using 96's (or anything for that matter) on a stock 2.0 bottom-end. if you've got a stock cam in there, then you're looking at about 100-110hp tops after some dyno-tuning (with good header). stock cam will (or should) limit what compression you choose to run. my cammed-2056 w/ header and IDF 44's running 9.65:1 compression on street gas puts about about 120-130hp, seat of the pants. this is with KB's and bored oem jugs. it's fast (the car is also stripped), but not blindingly so. except in massaged race form, you are going to want some serious displacement to get 160hp. build a stroker.

I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that this was just a top end rebuild, but it is not. It's being done from the bottom up. And I also never said this was going to be a daily. If it was a daily, I would just do the hated Subby swap and be done with it. This car is mostly going to be club raced with the PCA and RMR. So, compromises to driveability are totally acceptable. But I am also trying to do it as inexpensively as possible at the same time.

And Jake, that is where my comments about my wholesale accounts come it. Not to say that I am some cool guy that was connected. It was to imply that I not going to spend what I consider the big bucks on your parts unless I am convinced they are the best, and that they are not something I can put together myself locally. Nothing against you or your company, but there is a huge bias on this board in your favour, and it makes it really hard in a thread like this to get a breadth of answers.

I do have an excellent machinist at my disposal, as well as James McMillan. as a mechanic, to assist me in building this. If you don't know him, he has been building air cooled engines for 40 years, and has built many a big bore 1720cc 356/912 motor to 160hp. Sure, to do this with my 914 engine, it will require, pistons, cam, headwork, crank and rod work. But I am aware of that up front. And while I value his input (as I do yours) I am the kind of guy who wants as much feedback as I can possibly get before I make my decisions. And thus this thread...

You didn't say it was gonna be a race car before...

Then your choices on pistons may be very limited.

Read The Rules, Read The Rules, Read The Rules.

Unless you plan on just running DE's and the like, or in unlimited classes (bring your check book and first-born), all sanctioning bodies will have at least some basic rules on engine prep, if not down right draconian restrictions. Decide in advance what class you want to run in, and then see what your engine options are.

Make sure what the rules for your class allow and don't allow. Doube check them. Sometimes a seemingly innocent modification that, to you, has no performance advantage, could still be illegal for your class and bump into a place that's reserved for the trailer-riding-fire-breathing-monsters.

-Josh2

QUOTE

And Jake, that is where my comments about my wholesale accounts come it. Not to say that I am some cool guy that was connected.

Thats fine. .. What those accounts won't do is get compatible parts with no guesswork, from a TIV specialist. I don't build anything else. These parts were not available from me for years (util this past February) my store was opened to satisfy a huge void in the TIV engine world. My engines have been using these parts from day one and attaining the kind of reputation I have been able to doesn't come with second rate, easy to attain, half way developed parts.

Most places you are going to buy parts from are parts shops that don't build a single engine and most have zero first hand experience- thats all the difference in the world by its self.

QUOTE

It was to imply that I not going to spend what I consider the big bucks on your parts unless I am convinced they are the best, and that they are not something I can put together myself locally.

And if you could put them together yourself locally I would not even bother stocking them except for my own engines. Finding good core cylinders, truing them, boring them and then plateau finishing them to a set of pistons and then setting the ring gaps isn't something that can be done in 5 minutes. It sometimes takes me 15 cylinders thrown away to find one good solid set.

QUOTE

Nothing against you or your company, but there is a huge bias on this board in your favour, and it makes it really hard in a thread like this to get a breadth of answers.

And winning the trust of these guys is not easy. It has taken YEARS for guys to trust me the way they do.. So nowdays when someone doubts what they'll get I get a tad bit pissy myself... Do some searches here, on Google and on my forum and if you can find any other parts source or engine builder with a better reputation I'll GIVE you the cylinder and the pistons- Thats not a joke.

If you do the guys on this board and industry wrong you'll get slammed so fast it'll make your head spin- I have worked VERY hard to be fair and being doubted isn't my favorite thing on the planet.. In fact if an engine customer doubts me even 1% I refuse to do their engine!

QUOTE

I do have an excellent machinist at my disposal, as well as James McMillan. as a mechanic, to assist me in building this. If you don't know him, he has been building air cooled engines for 40 years, and has built many a big bore 1720cc 356/912 motor to 160hp. Sure, to do this with my 914 engine, it will require, pistons, cam, headwork, crank and rod work

.
And while I can certainly appreciate that I can also say that he may lack the TIV experience with the more modern parts that you are considering to help you as well as you may believe. The 356 engine and the 616 engine build very differently than the TIV- I build those too (on a very limited basis) and I'm currently working with this build
200 HP Typ 616 Daily driver

These pistons (96mm KB) having their hypereuctectic properties are different from any cast piston and any forged piston in the settings they prefer to run quietly and at their best. I learned this first hand and I'll tell you now that the Mfr of the pistons nor the MFR of the rings can be of assistance, doing it their way resulted in an oil burning pig that rattled like a diesel when it was cold..... Like everything else here I had to do it my way and perfect it..

If you would like to have your machinist bore your cylinders for you- GREAT! ( I hate doing it anyway) and I can supply you with the pistons and rings for him to do so- BUT you'll be on your own with the roughness averages and skirt clearance settings. I sell a lot of the piston only sets.

BUT I won't try to win you over- i'll let you do it like its supposed to happen... Buy somewhere else, get ripped, lied to and pissed on and then buy from me and you'll have no further questions....

Thats what the guys here had to go through with for years before I opened this store.. Can someone else provide you with these parts??? They *might* be able to, but you can't buy the "No guesswork" characteristic and thats priceless in the TIV world.

This engine may appear to be an old flat 4 that anyone can build and some of it IS that simple and other things are not. In fact complacency and lack of caring to find the best way to do things with the TIV is the #1 reason for engine issues......

Excuse the point blankness- I know no other way. (there isn't one)

(Hell, just calling parts shops and asking the guy on the phone what he drove to work today will tell the tale all in it's self, everything in my parking lot is TIV powered)

thats why Jake gets my business.

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Oct 17 2005, 01:13 PM)

thats why Jake gets my business.

and Jake appreciates every dollar...

(Geoff is a repeat and frequent customer)

BTW Geoff, the 9550 cam left on Friday.... I swear I can't keep those damn things in stock!

Jake,
For someone who claims to offer the best product, you are really quick to get insulted and defensive. My inquisitive nature has been taken by you as some doubt about your ability as an engine builder. That was in no way my intent. Maybe if you didn't have so much ego wrapped up in your engines, you wouldn't read so much into my posts. I haven't been around this board too long, but I see these diatribes around once a week.

I really don't doubt that you make the absolute top type IV engines in the world. What I am questioning is the $$$ versus performance of what I want to do. I am not really concerned about max horsepower, or winning races. This car is for fun. But when one get attacked on a board for wanting to assess all the available options, well it isn't any fun.

And as a consumer, I am far less likely to give you my business because I have been brow beaten by you because you have some admitted problem with people inquiring about what other options are. Telling me to go buy the parts elsewhere and talking down to me about how I am going to blow up my engine and then see you are right is no way to get my business. Explaining to me, as an equal, what makes your kits better is a far more effective way to get my business. But with a backlog of orders like you got, I probably mean nothing to you, and you won't miss my business...

I'm not defending Jake, but the choices are limited .....you know of the JE and KB pistons, then you have stock (which won't work for you) and then you have the cheap asian import stuff that you see on eBay and some other builders use.....(Mark Stephens used them)


obviously not everyone has had Jake build an engine, there are other engine builders out there, but I have never seen them chime in and offer advice on a motor or where to get parts....

i've never dealt with JE or KB, so I don't know how easy it is to order and get excactly what you need...you might get lucky and have them help you with the order since I doubt it's a standard catalog item (which it might be, just not listed, more of an internal thing)

We just took apart a 2.0 motor with KB pistons in it with very low miles on the clock and let me say that I was less than impressed. I'd have to agree with Jake that without all the research and development the KB poistons would money down the drain.

My machinist can build a 914 motor using a crazy mix of parts that actually work together and produce lots of torque for around $7000 give or take how much the heads need to be cleaned/welded up. But I'm not going to give away any of his secrets on a forum.

Don't fool yourself, just about every 2.0 head I've ever pulled had cracks in it. Look very closely.

I don't know Jake but I have seen his lifter and they're top notch. While I can see your point about being a customer doing research I can also see his point. I get calls at my shop from guys who've had to DIY for ego or $ resaons and it ALWAYS bites them in the ass. It gets frustrating imparting your wisdom and years of experience to someone who do what you suggest and then asks you "why didn't it work?"

QUOTE (billswim @ Oct 17 2005, 03:22 PM)

We just took apart a 2.0 motor with KB pistons in it with very low miles on the clock and let me say that I was less than impressed. I'd have to agree with Jake that without all the research and development the KB poistons would money down the drain.

Is that Andys motor?

It's obvious that we have conflicting personalities.... And thats fine. Its much better to find that out now than later on after $$$ has been exchanged...

An engine builder without an ego is about the most worthless thing in the world- if one doesn't believe in his abilities he should go find another position that doesn't involve going fast....

I never meant to attack you, but I suppose I did- but thats only because the bit of doubt that you had about me was probably taken as an "attack" by my brain thats too confused with mechanical things today..

Just for the record- My customers, no matter how big or how small ALL mean the same to me... I need each and every one of them and the only time I feel its best to split company with a customer is when they don't believe in me..... It takes the job that i love to do 14-18 hours a day and makes it hassle that makes it "work".... And if my backlog was 2 days, or even 2 hours I'd still turn down those jobs....

So go buy the parts you need and have fun with the project and I'll go back to doing what I was before this post started....

I never meant to attack you...Seriously

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 17 2005, 12:25 PM)

I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that this was just a top end rebuild, but it is not.

well, you said that you want to "hone [your] stock cylinders, and drop in a new forged unit", and bump up the compression -- that's all. thus it sounded much like a top-end rebuild. you didn't mention that it was going to be a race car, what class will you would be running, what the limits for that class would be, etc.

but as for pistons, you're looking stock, kb, or je. i think that kb's really are a fair value -- though billswim's post is a bit disconcerting (but if that's andy's engine, then keep in mind that it was never right to begin with). but your class would probably require you to use 94's.

also, you don't need to use jake to get your parts -- although his shit does seem like a good value after having done it all myself.

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 17 2005, 02:46 PM)

It's obvious that we have conflicting personalities.... And thats fine. Its much better to find that out now than later on after $$$ has been exchanged... An engine builder without an ego is about the most worthless thing in the world- if one doesn't believe in his abilities he should go find another position that doesn't involve going fast.... I never meant to attack you, but I suppose I did- but thats only because the bit of doubt that you had about me was probably taken as an "attack" by my brain thats too confused with mechanical things today.. Just for the record- My customers, no matter how big or how small ALL mean the same to me... I need each and every one of them and the only time I feel its best to split company with a customer is when they don't believe in me..... It takes the job that i love to do 14-18 hours a day and makes it hassle that makes it "work".... And if my backlog was 2 days, or even 2 hours I'd still turn down those jobs.... So go buy the parts you need and have fun with the project and I'll go back to doing what I was before this post started.... I never meant to attack you...Seriously

Jake,
Thank you. This reply shows the sort of humility that I rarely see on boards, and I belong to a lot of them. Guys get so wrapped up in being right that they loose sight of whatever technical discussion is going on, and rarely go back to say that they may have flown off the handle a bit. I really appreciate that. I have an old saying that I have used in my signature from time to time," I don't care who's right or wrong, I just want to know the right answer" And I do apologize if I insulted you. I never questioned your ability to build the best engines, just whether or not your parts would be needed for my humble little hot rod. And you may get my business yet.

I wouldn't have you build me an engine. I am a more than adept mechanic, and with a professional Porsche mechanic like Jimmy at my disposal, it just wouldn't make any sense to pay you to build me an engine. I mentioned his personal preference of the 356 engines, but he builds all the air cooled engines, and his personal favorite Porsche is the 914. He's done more than a few of them over the years.

But your specialized type IV parts do appeal to me...

I couldn't build my pedigreed engines without these parts...
Like I said first and foremost...
FYI- I don't primarily build race engines, nor provide parts for them- My specialty is guys just like you and thats where all my development has been aimed from day one... Why? Because thats exactly what I DO with my cars (all of them aircooled)..

Humble little hot rods are what I'm all about-

QUOTE

I wouldn't have you build me an engine. I am a more than adept mechanic, and with a professional Porsche mechanic like Jimmy at my disposal, it just wouldn't make any sense to pay you to build me an engine

99% of my engine customers DO NOT hold your abilities, or the place to do the job and they don't want to take any chances. Thats why they pay me to do it right the first time so they can drive their car... I opened my parts division FOR guys like you, however... the guys that can do the job and have the place to do it, but lack modern/developed/tested parts to do it completely..... Heck, I built 3 engines with the KB pistons from used parts and tried to have failures with them before I sold or used the first one in a customer's engine. One of those "Used parts" engines has gotten me where I have been going for 3 years and 2 months and just over 87K miles- I drove it to Ohio and back over 1800 miles and didn't even check the oil.... (thats after going as much as 15K miles between oil changes)

So sometimes when my price looks inflated, think about the fact that these parts are not just thrown in a box with no development- I know how they are going to respond to your application and that ALL costs ME money that I have to get in return somehow.. Heck last year i spent 12,000.00 of MY money to solve lifter issues and that didn't do the job. It took another4K of money from guys here on the boards that contributed to the lifter fund to get me the funds to finish the work and perfect a lifter... (some of them gave me 200-500 bucks and all i asked for was 2 bucks and at the most 5 bucks!) They contributed because they knew I would get a result and because they trust me...

QUOTE

And you may get my business yet.

When you get more interested lets talk, see if we truly are compatible and go from there. Find out your true overall goal for the engine as thats the first big step toward satisfaction.... But it generally isn't contingent on simply a piston/cylinder assembly alone- Its all in the combo.

QUOTE

I mentioned his personal preference of the 356 engines, but he builds all the air cooled engines, and his personal favorite Porsche is the 914. He's done more than a few of them over the years.

I didn't and never mean to doubt anyone's abilities.. BUT conventional wisom has show me that those who do just a few of these engines are never given the opportunity to fully learn them, their traits and their wants/needs. My best analogy for this is that Veteranarian's don't do Heart Bypass Surgery on Humans and vice versa- while they are equally trained and could probably do the job for each other they just don't do it because its not what they are specialized in..... Thats why I don't touch anythiong other than the TIV and maybe 1-2 356 engines per year (all those 356's are over 160 ponies or I don't touch them look for the latest one in excellence sometime soon)

I see a ton of mistakes with the TIV made by 911 mechanics primarily- they think its "simple" and they don't want to work on it anyway and they just slap it half assed together and let it fly with no worries... I see it and hear about it daily.

QUOTE

And I do apologize if I insulted you

And I do the same... NOW- Go play the lottery because Jake don't apologize very damn often and today MUST BE your lucky day!

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 17 2005, 03:38 PM)

And I do the same... NOW- Go play the lottery because Jake don't apologize very damn often and today MUST BE your lucky day!

LMAO... Famous 914 clubber quote!

Order the KB pistons from John at Aircooled send them to Rimco or whoever is doing your machine work. I would have a motorcycle or snowmobile shop do them as they understand close tolerences. Bore them to .0025-.0028 wall clearance. If you get the Hastings rings set the top ring gap more than the Hastings specified gap (.0028-.0031) set the second ring to the KB specs. Hone the cylinders with either a 320 or 400 grit stone depending on the top ring you use and break it in hard.

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Oct 17 2005, 03:08 PM)

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 17 2005, 12:25 PM) I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that this was just a top end rebuild, but it is not. well, you said that you want to "hone [your] stock cylinders, and drop in a new forged unit", and bump up the compression -- that's all. thus it sounded much like a top-end rebuild. you didn't mention that it was going to be a race car, what class will you would be running, what the limits for that class would be, etc. but as for pistons, you're looking stock, kb, or je. i think that kb's really are a fair value -- though billswim's post is a bit disconcerting (but if that's andy's engine, then keep in mind that it was never right to begin with). but your class would probably require you to use 94's. also, you don't need to use jake to get your parts -- although his shit does seem like a good value after having done it all myself.

Nathan,
I'm sorry if I was quick to get offended. It gets annoying to get treated like a dumbass because you have a low post count and nobody knows your history or experience level. To me, it would be self evident that with my desired hp level, and specified compression that I would be an idiot not to address the bottom end, especially when I highly doubt it has ever been done.

To clarify my situation a bit more, the heads I took off are a brand new rebuild, as are the P&C's, case studs, and push rods. As in zero carbon build up and zero wear. I went into the engine in the first place because I saw the total hack work the previous owner did on his Weber conversion. But as best I can tell, the car never ran again after he did the top end and the Webers. Everything is brand new. Even the 911 clutch and pressure plate haven't even been heat cycled and broken in. So, I have been given the opportunity to save a lot of money and spend most of the money inside the case. I do plan on completely disassembling the heads, inspecting them, doing some port work, and a valve job. But it is really nice to start with fresh valves and springs, and heads that aren't cracked.

On the whole piston thing, having brand new cylinders that weren't ever broken in is my motivation to just buy some pistons and rings. I've got a warehouse full of used P&C's here, but having a set of brand new cylinder's fall in your lap is kind of a unique experience. And thus my desire to find an appropriate piston of the stock bore for my build...

didn't mean to jump all over your shit matt. sorry.

but as for pistons, check out aircooled.net also. Wiseco and Cima, plus the super-squishees -- there are some T-1 piston options. but ultimately, it comes down to the rule book...

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Oct 18 2005, 10:38 AM)

there are some T-1 piston options.

i forgot all about using those....silly me...that is what I have for my 2165 motor I am building

Matt,
I would ad this.

Pelican Parts also has a forum that might give you more opinions..
Also Auto Atlanta has one.

Aircooled.net seems to have a knowledgable staff that will answer lots of questions, and they have good prices.

Pauter Machine has good Rods (never tried them)

I would also like to comment that you have a porsche/vw aircooled mechanic that has built motors for 40 years....well I am sure he has built a few of these motors before...

CB performance might also be able to help you with your choices.

There are Euro vendors as well, but you dont need them for pistons...

Oh, do a search for air cooled cylinders. There is a company out there that makes aircooled cylinders for harley etc...they do a good comparison or pistons on the web site.

Good luck.

Rich

we've been through this before so I didn't bother to read all the posts...

We plan soon to get Jake's stock 2.0 pistons he sells for about $350 ( ) I think, and a cam from him. then the only thing left will be the bearings.
Looking at all the options is a good idea but eventually you have to buy from someone who knows what he's talking about.

QUOTE (r_towle @ Oct 18 2005, 07:28 PM)

I would also like to comment that you have a porsche/vw aircooled mechanic that has built motors for 40 years....well I am sure he has built a few of these motors before...

Rich, and others, thank you for all your input.

The problem with Jimmy is that while he has been doing this forever, he hasn't built a 914 engine in 10 years. The motors our shop mostly builds right now are 356/912 race motors, and 2.0l S motors, with the occasional 3.0l. For all intensive purposes we have become 90% tranny focused and he only builds one or two motors a month. He knows what they used to do to build race 914 motors, but he's not up to date on what newer parts are available. When he was still building them, most of the big bore kits were coming out of Brazil. It was actually him who suggested I do some research to what has changed in recent years...

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 17 2005, 02:25 PM)

QUOTE (billswim @ Oct 17 2005, 03:22 PM) We just took apart a 2.0 motor with KB pistons in it with very low miles on the clock and let me say that I was less than impressed.  I'd have to agree with Jake that without all the research and development the KB poistons would money down the drain.   Is that Andys motor?

I have now had a chance to talk with Andy about his motor and yes those KBs that I was less than impressed with were out of his motor. Yes he's had trouble with this motor from day one but the major problems did not stem from the pistons. Regardless I'm still unimpreesed with the KBs. What Brett W said makes a lot of sense since the top ring on these pistons wasn't sealing worth a damn and the oil control rings weren't doing their job either. I don't believe these pistons qualify as custom pistons. Sure they are custom in the sense that someone took a chevy blank and machined it down to fit the 96 mm bore in the motor but bt that time the skirts were so increibly thin as to be very dangerous and likely not last very long at all. The pin keepers were of a weak design too. These pistons might work with a lot of prep and far a race motor that is going to be torn apart after a few miles but for a street motor to last. I couldn't recommend them.

Like I said its all in the set up of the pistons. The specs that Brett stated are not magic, its in the instructions of the KBs to run .0065 per inch of bore on the top ring and .004 on the second ring. This is NOT conventional wisdom and is dictated by the design of the top ring land and the compression bevel between the top and second rings that PROMOTES sealing... Conventional wisdom calls for .004" r ing gap per " of bore and if that spec is used with these you are GUARANTEED to not have optimum results.

I would be willing to bet that Andy's rings were not hastings, they were probably Grant rings that are not worth a damn no matter what piston you have.

The KB pistons have and contiue to impress me in their characteristics of sealing and blowby. I have dozens of high mileage engines running them, including two of my own.

I recommend the pistons above all others FOR street applications, because I have seen all the rest and know the huge differences.

There is also a 90% chance that Andy had NEW (read junk) cylinders and that no one even bothered to even check the ring gaps (that always have to be filed with 96mm pistons because all the ring packs are designed for 2.3L Ford Pinto engines and are slightly too large).

Couple new cylinders with rings that were more than likely not gapped correctly and skirt clearances that were probably excessive (some new cylinders when cupled with a KB 3.7795 piston have a whopping .004 skirt clearance) and causing the issues to worsen is not enough evidence to condemn a piston as harshly as the previous poster did..

I have built not one, not two, not dozens but HUNDREDS of engines with these pistons and my methds and have never seen the issues that would lead me to believe they are anything but exceptional.

Setting them up is not rocket science, but it takes more effort than sliding them inside a set of Chinese or Mexican cylinders and slapping a set of rings in the box and thats how most of them are sold and YES I can see how that could cause issues. sing these pistons did take a bit of a learning curve for us, but that was like 6 years ago and now I use more of these than any other piston... Hell my New 2016cc Turbo will be running a set at about 20 PSI boost.

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I don't believe these pistons qualify as custom pistons. Sure they are custom in the sense that someone took a chevy blank and machined it down to fit the 96 mm bore in the motor

For the record these pistons are based on a 2.3L Ford blank, the 4 cylinder engine used in a HUGE amount of SCCA classes and all sorts of other race applications for the past 30 years. This piston is only .0023 smaller than the 2.3L Ford version.

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the skirts were so increibly thin as to be very dangerous and likely not last very long at all.

Then how come I have 87K on a set in my 912 E without a rattle and with only 3% leakdown after all those miles??

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The pin keepers were of a weak design too

Really?? They are the same exact clips that hold the wrist pins in place in Racer Chris' F Production engine and she's good for 8500 revs... They are so damn strong that we resuse them sometimes even on full race engines like Chris'

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These pistons might work with a lot of prep and far a race motor that is going to be torn apart after a few miles but for a street motor to last

And I could not disagree more...

Once again please do not gain an opposition to these pistons based on one instance guaranteed to have variables that could lead to inaccurate assumptions of the product in question.

BTW- I have never seen one have any failure that was not associated with lack of correct preparation- Not a single one out of hundreds of uses of them thats in street OR race form.

I too have excellent results with the Keith Blacks when paired up with Nickies in the 96mm bore. With care as to the proper clearance and ring gaps, they perform admirably and are significantly cheaper than JEs. They are light and allow very tight piston cylinder clearances, which you just can't do with a JE and a cast iron cylinder.

If you must run JEs in a race engine turning high rpms, you'll want to go all out and coat the skirts as well as opt for the H11 tool steel pins, dual forced pin oilers, split oil return, internal lightening (I personally only do so when paired with Ti rods), and cam the piston as such with a significantly hotter cam than the street .0015" taper put on the skirts. There are lots of other details to consider, but those are the biggies.

The piston is as much a point of contention as the cylinder you are using- I was just down at Aircooled Technology when they were pressure testing an engine which an audible leak could be heard. First the valves and then heads were checked and then the NEW cast iron cylinders were found to have a hole in the bore. Talk about dynamic compression! Bore out a good ol' german cylinder and have it cryogenically treated while you are at it and set up the clearances per the manufacturer's specifications.

Please do not "internally lighten" pistons. This will alter the way the skirts can react to operational stresses. Unless the piston was designed with a focus on minimum wieght do not remove large quantities of material from the underside of the crown, areas around the wristpin boss, and around the skirt. Balancing a piston is one thing but most current high quality race will not need large quantities of material removed to balance.

Wiesco has one of the best piston developement departments, followed by CP and JE. For most Street and race applications you don't need the lightest piston available.

Here is a current race piston that has been lightened but it was designed for this. This is drag race only piston. No it is not going in a T4.

Brett,

I agree wholeheartedly. Most pistons actually get reinforced skirts now that I think about it. I've only done two sets internally lightened in five years and both were for extremely light cars with Ti rods and very light rotating assemblies. The typical application does not call for such lengths of reducing rotating mass.

I personally have never used the forged side relief forgings from JE like you've shown because no one can really give me a good figure for expansion when compared to STD slipper skirts. I'd hate to set up a set of Nickies and have them either sieze or run so loose that it's set up like a 10 cent whore (please excuse the expression).

I am not a big fan of JE. They have become too corporate. Wiesco is much better about helping the smaller customers out. I have had many sets of JE pistons in hand and compared them to Wiesco. There is no comparison, The Wiesco pistons have a much better finish and more features that JE charges extra for. Plus Wiesco owns the piston factory unlike some other manufactures that have to buy their blanks from an independent supplier.

That is another one of my arguments against aircooling but I won't start that argument again. Sizing pistons and determining the expansion rates are done for watercooled engines. Although since Wiesco is heavily involved with motorcycles and snowmobiles they should have a very solid grip on the requisite specs you need.

How about running .00090 (thats right, less than one thou) of skirt clearance with a forged piston for skirt clearance????

Thats what Nickies allow and I have a ton of engines running less than one thou of skirt clearance- and you damn right, they are aircooled!

OK, whats your point. When the cylinder expands at the same rate as the piston there is no need for massive cylinder wall clearance.

Yup, that's the point. Just look at the recommendations JE and other forged piston manufacturers make and then look at the piston to cylinder clearances Porsche originally used. They used a high-silicon cylinder with a high-silicon piston to maintain decent clearances, but by no stretch of the imagination did they ever expect us to be able to pull off a .001" clearance on a 105mm bore since the Nickies expand at a very similar rate to JEs.

Just as some don't like JEs, I don't care much for the Wisecos that have passed by my desk. I would use CP, Omega, or Cosworth for pistons, but then there's no need to exponentially increase cost where it's not needed. We all reserve the right to use whatever suppliers we are most comfortable and pleased with, although I do have to say that i'm pissed at JE for loosing two separate custom 911 piston orders in a row that I have placed in the last month, which really screws up my delivery schedule.

Yeppers...
I have ran as little as .00075 piston/cylinder clearance with Nickies and had astonishing results.... That same engine with a cast iron cylinder would have died at less than .002 with those pistons (ask me how I know)

The engine that was running the .00075 skirt clearance was just torn down not very long ago and the cylinders and puistons looked like they had virtually 500 miles on them.. They had 11,200 miles on them and had never had the oil changed in that time period as I was trying to promote wear.

Note: No coatings were used on those piston skirts, nor was there any special preparation of the pistons/rings at all- just slapped together with less than a thou of clearance and ran VERY HARD...

I have the pics of those components of this engine as well as all the other trick aspects of the "Hybrid Annihilator" to upload to my R&D site as soon as I get the chance....

My 3 Liter also has one thou of skirt clearance and it'll be coming apart since I blew the tranny out of the car on Monday, so now its time to see what the wear looks like inside after almost 10K of pure hellacious power makin insanity...

BTW- Both the engines you saw at Mid Ohio that had my name on them had less than one thou of skirt clearance-

Also NO ONE ever promoted the use of this clearance and Charles and I approached it as a pure risk taking endeavor on the first occasion in a previous test engine of mine... We did that because I had noted that with less clearance than the piston MFR called for the pistons and cylinders still measured and looked great..... Its all about taking risks and not listening to a damn soul, no matter their degree, their profession or their experience- I'll find out on my own, thank you very much!

Yeah Charles I didn't bring up Cosworth, Omega, Perfect Bore, BME, or Mahle. No sense in muddying the waters for everyone else. Yeah price increase exponentially when you start asking for really odd stuff or big name stuff. I know JE has come up with a solution to mircowelding the rings to the lands, but there pistons are the only ones that seem to have the problem. For most people it is good to go through someone like you or Jake or John to avoid all these issues.