What are my piston options?, I finally got the thing apart. Options

[Matt Monson]

Well,
I finally got off my arse this weekend, and furthered the teardown of my 2.0l. The heads are in like new condition. Everything seems to indicate that this engine had the top end re-done right before it was parked for 3 years. But they pistons are the stockers. I want to up the CR, and want to go beyond what the Euro ones will get me. I am looking for between 9 and 9.5:1. I am wanting to hone my stock cylinders, and drop in a new forged unit. So, what are my options? And sorry if this has been asked before, but my searches didn't bring up much outside of getting stuff from Jake. I want to weigh all the options...

[Mueller]

I'm not defending Jake, but the choices are limited .....you know of the JE and KB pistons, then you have stock (which won't work for you) and then you have the cheap asian import stuff that you see on eBay and some other builders use.....(Mark Stephens used them)


obviously not everyone has had Jake build an engine, there are other engine builders out there, but I have never seen them chime in and offer advice on a motor or where to get parts....

i've never dealt with JE or KB, so I don't know how easy it is to order and get excactly what you need...you might get lucky and have them help you with the order since I doubt it's a standard catalog item (which it might be, just not listed, more of an internal thing)

[billswim]

We just took apart a 2.0 motor with KB pistons in it with very low miles on the clock and let me say that I was less than impressed. I'd have to agree with Jake that without all the research and development the KB poistons would money down the drain.

My machinist can build a 914 motor using a crazy mix of parts that actually work together and produce lots of torque for around $7000 give or take how much the heads need to be cleaned/welded up. But I'm not going to give away any of his secrets on a forum.

Don't fool yourself, just about every 2.0 head I've ever pulled had cracks in it. Look very closely.

I don't know Jake but I have seen his lifter and they're top notch. While I can see your point about being a customer doing research I can also see his point. I get calls at my shop from guys who've had to DIY for ego or $ resaons and it ALWAYS bites them in the ass. It gets frustrating imparting your wisdom and years of experience to someone who do what you suggest and then asks you "why didn't it work?"

[Mueller]

QUOTE (billswim @ Oct 17 2005, 03:22 PM)

We just took apart a 2.0 motor with KB pistons in it with very low miles on the clock and let me say that I was less than impressed. I'd have to agree with Jake that without all the research and development the KB poistons would money down the drain.

Is that Andys motor?

[Jake Raby]

It's obvious that we have conflicting personalities.... And thats fine. Its much better to find that out now than later on after $$$ has been exchanged...

An engine builder without an ego is about the most worthless thing in the world- if one doesn't believe in his abilities he should go find another position that doesn't involve going fast....

I never meant to attack you, but I suppose I did- but thats only because the bit of doubt that you had about me was probably taken as an "attack" by my brain thats too confused with mechanical things today..

Just for the record- My customers, no matter how big or how small ALL mean the same to me... I need each and every one of them and the only time I feel its best to split company with a customer is when they don't believe in me..... It takes the job that i love to do 14-18 hours a day and makes it hassle that makes it "work".... And if my backlog was 2 days, or even 2 hours I'd still turn down those jobs....

So go buy the parts you need and have fun with the project and I'll go back to doing what I was before this post started....

I never meant to attack you...Seriously

[nebreitling]

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 17 2005, 12:25 PM)

I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that this was just a top end rebuild, but it is not.

well, you said that you want to "hone [your] stock cylinders, and drop in a new forged unit", and bump up the compression -- that's all. thus it sounded much like a top-end rebuild. you didn't mention that it was going to be a race car, what class will you would be running, what the limits for that class would be, etc.

but as for pistons, you're looking stock, kb, or je. i think that kb's really are a fair value -- though billswim's post is a bit disconcerting (but if that's andy's engine, then keep in mind that it was never right to begin with). but your class would probably require you to use 94's.

also, you don't need to use jake to get your parts -- although his shit does seem like a good value after having done it all myself.

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 17 2005, 02:46 PM)

It's obvious that we have conflicting personalities.... And thats fine. Its much better to find that out now than later on after $$$ has been exchanged... An engine builder without an ego is about the most worthless thing in the world- if one doesn't believe in his abilities he should go find another position that doesn't involve going fast.... I never meant to attack you, but I suppose I did- but thats only because the bit of doubt that you had about me was probably taken as an "attack" by my brain thats too confused with mechanical things today.. Just for the record- My customers, no matter how big or how small ALL mean the same to me... I need each and every one of them and the only time I feel its best to split company with a customer is when they don't believe in me..... It takes the job that i love to do 14-18 hours a day and makes it hassle that makes it "work".... And if my backlog was 2 days, or even 2 hours I'd still turn down those jobs.... So go buy the parts you need and have fun with the project and I'll go back to doing what I was before this post started.... I never meant to attack you...Seriously

Jake,
Thank you. This reply shows the sort of humility that I rarely see on boards, and I belong to a lot of them. Guys get so wrapped up in being right that they loose sight of whatever technical discussion is going on, and rarely go back to say that they may have flown off the handle a bit. I really appreciate that. I have an old saying that I have used in my signature from time to time," I don't care who's right or wrong, I just want to know the right answer" And I do apologize if I insulted you. I never questioned your ability to build the best engines, just whether or not your parts would be needed for my humble little hot rod. And you may get my business yet.

I wouldn't have you build me an engine. I am a more than adept mechanic, and with a professional Porsche mechanic like Jimmy at my disposal, it just wouldn't make any sense to pay you to build me an engine. I mentioned his personal preference of the 356 engines, but he builds all the air cooled engines, and his personal favorite Porsche is the 914. He's done more than a few of them over the years.

But your specialized type IV parts do appeal to me...

[Jake Raby]

I couldn't build my pedigreed engines without these parts...
Like I said first and foremost...
FYI- I don't primarily build race engines, nor provide parts for them- My specialty is guys just like you and thats where all my development has been aimed from day one... Why? Because thats exactly what I DO with my cars (all of them aircooled)..

Humble little hot rods are what I'm all about-

QUOTE

I wouldn't have you build me an engine. I am a more than adept mechanic, and with a professional Porsche mechanic like Jimmy at my disposal, it just wouldn't make any sense to pay you to build me an engine

99% of my engine customers DO NOT hold your abilities, or the place to do the job and they don't want to take any chances. Thats why they pay me to do it right the first time so they can drive their car... I opened my parts division FOR guys like you, however... the guys that can do the job and have the place to do it, but lack modern/developed/tested parts to do it completely..... Heck, I built 3 engines with the KB pistons from used parts and tried to have failures with them before I sold or used the first one in a customer's engine. One of those "Used parts" engines has gotten me where I have been going for 3 years and 2 months and just over 87K miles- I drove it to Ohio and back over 1800 miles and didn't even check the oil.... (thats after going as much as 15K miles between oil changes)

So sometimes when my price looks inflated, think about the fact that these parts are not just thrown in a box with no development- I know how they are going to respond to your application and that ALL costs ME money that I have to get in return somehow.. Heck last year i spent 12,000.00 of MY money to solve lifter issues and that didn't do the job. It took another4K of money from guys here on the boards that contributed to the lifter fund to get me the funds to finish the work and perfect a lifter... (some of them gave me 200-500 bucks and all i asked for was 2 bucks and at the most 5 bucks!) They contributed because they knew I would get a result and because they trust me...

QUOTE

And you may get my business yet.

When you get more interested lets talk, see if we truly are compatible and go from there. Find out your true overall goal for the engine as thats the first big step toward satisfaction.... But it generally isn't contingent on simply a piston/cylinder assembly alone- Its all in the combo.

QUOTE

I mentioned his personal preference of the 356 engines, but he builds all the air cooled engines, and his personal favorite Porsche is the 914. He's done more than a few of them over the years.

I didn't and never mean to doubt anyone's abilities.. BUT conventional wisom has show me that those who do just a few of these engines are never given the opportunity to fully learn them, their traits and their wants/needs. My best analogy for this is that Veteranarian's don't do Heart Bypass Surgery on Humans and vice versa- while they are equally trained and could probably do the job for each other they just don't do it because its not what they are specialized in..... Thats why I don't touch anythiong other than the TIV and maybe 1-2 356 engines per year (all those 356's are over 160 ponies or I don't touch them look for the latest one in excellence sometime soon)

I see a ton of mistakes with the TIV made by 911 mechanics primarily- they think its "simple" and they don't want to work on it anyway and they just slap it half assed together and let it fly with no worries... I see it and hear about it daily.

QUOTE

And I do apologize if I insulted you

And I do the same... NOW- Go play the lottery because Jake don't apologize very damn often and today MUST BE your lucky day!

[Brando]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 17 2005, 03:38 PM)

And I do the same... NOW- Go play the lottery because Jake don't apologize very damn often and today MUST BE your lucky day!

LMAO... Famous 914 clubber quote! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hijacked.gif)

[Brett W]

Order the KB pistons from John at Aircooled send them to Rimco or whoever is doing your machine work. I would have a motorcycle or snowmobile shop do them as they understand close tolerences. Bore them to .0025-.0028 wall clearance. If you get the Hastings rings set the top ring gap more than the Hastings specified gap (.0028-.0031) set the second ring to the KB specs. Hone the cylinders with either a 320 or 400 grit stone depending on the top ring you use and break it in hard.

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Oct 17 2005, 03:08 PM)

QUOTE (Matt Monson @ Oct 17 2005, 12:25 PM) I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that this was just a top end rebuild, but it is not. well, you said that you want to "hone [your] stock cylinders, and drop in a new forged unit", and bump up the compression -- that's all. thus it sounded much like a top-end rebuild. you didn't mention that it was going to be a race car, what class will you would be running, what the limits for that class would be, etc. but as for pistons, you're looking stock, kb, or je. i think that kb's really are a fair value -- though billswim's post is a bit disconcerting (but if that's andy's engine, then keep in mind that it was never right to begin with). but your class would probably require you to use 94's. also, you don't need to use jake to get your parts -- although his shit does seem like a good value after having done it all myself.

Nathan,
I'm sorry if I was quick to get offended. It gets annoying to get treated like a dumbass because you have a low post count and nobody knows your history or experience level. To me, it would be self evident that with my desired hp level, and specified compression that I would be an idiot not to address the bottom end, especially when I highly doubt it has ever been done.

To clarify my situation a bit more, the heads I took off are a brand new rebuild, as are the P&C's, case studs, and push rods. As in zero carbon build up and zero wear. I went into the engine in the first place because I saw the total hack work the previous owner did on his Weber conversion. But as best I can tell, the car never ran again after he did the top end and the Webers. Everything is brand new. Even the 911 clutch and pressure plate haven't even been heat cycled and broken in. So, I have been given the opportunity to save a lot of money and spend most of the money inside the case. I do plan on completely disassembling the heads, inspecting them, doing some port work, and a valve job. But it is really nice to start with fresh valves and springs, and heads that aren't cracked.

On the whole piston thing, having brand new cylinders that weren't ever broken in is my motivation to just buy some pistons and rings. I've got a warehouse full of used P&C's here, but having a set of brand new cylinder's fall in your lap is kind of a unique experience. And thus my desire to find an appropriate piston of the stock bore for my build...

[nebreitling]

didn't mean to jump all over your shit matt. sorry.

but as for pistons, check out aircooled.net also. Wiseco and Cima, plus the super-squishees -- there are some T-1 piston options. but ultimately, it comes down to the rule book... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)

[Mueller]

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Oct 18 2005, 10:38 AM)

there are some T-1 piston options.

i forgot all about using those....silly me...that is what I have for my 2165 motor I am building (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif)

[r_towle]

Matt,
I would ad this.

Pelican Parts also has a forum that might give you more opinions..
Also Auto Atlanta has one.

Aircooled.net seems to have a knowledgable staff that will answer lots of questions, and they have good prices.

Pauter Machine has good Rods (never tried them)

I would also like to comment that you have a porsche/vw aircooled mechanic that has built motors for 40 years....well I am sure he has built a few of these motors before...

CB performance might also be able to help you with your choices.

There are Euro vendors as well, but you dont need them for pistons...

Oh, do a search for air cooled cylinders. There is a company out there that makes aircooled cylinders for harley etc...they do a good comparison or pistons on the web site.

Good luck.

Rich

[Dead Air]

we've been through this before so I didn't bother to read all the posts...

We plan soon to get Jake's stock 2.0 pistons he sells for about $350 ( (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) ) I think, and a cam from him. then the only thing left will be the bearings.
Looking at all the options is a good idea but eventually you have to buy from someone who knows what he's talking about.

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (r_towle @ Oct 18 2005, 07:28 PM)

I would also like to comment that you have a porsche/vw aircooled mechanic that has built motors for 40 years....well I am sure he has built a few of these motors before...

Rich, and others, thank you for all your input.

The problem with Jimmy is that while he has been doing this forever, he hasn't built a 914 engine in 10 years. The motors our shop mostly builds right now are 356/912 race motors, and 2.0l S motors, with the occasional 3.0l. For all intensive purposes we have become 90% tranny focused and he only builds one or two motors a month. He knows what they used to do to build race 914 motors, but he's not up to date on what newer parts are available. When he was still building them, most of the big bore kits were coming out of Brazil. It was actually him who suggested I do some research to what has changed in recent years...

[billswim]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 17 2005, 02:25 PM)

QUOTE (billswim @ Oct 17 2005, 03:22 PM) We just took apart a 2.0 motor with KB pistons in it with very low miles on the clock and let me say that I was less than impressed.  I'd have to agree with Jake that without all the research and development the KB poistons would money down the drain.   Is that Andys motor?

I have now had a chance to talk with Andy about his motor and yes those KBs that I was less than impressed with were out of his motor. Yes he's had trouble with this motor from day one but the major problems did not stem from the pistons. Regardless I'm still unimpreesed with the KBs. What Brett W said makes a lot of sense since the top ring on these pistons wasn't sealing worth a damn and the oil control rings weren't doing their job either. I don't believe these pistons qualify as custom pistons. Sure they are custom in the sense that someone took a chevy blank and machined it down to fit the 96 mm bore in the motor but bt that time the skirts were so increibly thin as to be very dangerous and likely not last very long at all. The pin keepers were of a weak design too. These pistons might work with a lot of prep and far a race motor that is going to be torn apart after a few miles but for a street motor to last. I couldn't recommend them.

[Jake Raby]

Like I said its all in the set up of the pistons. The specs that Brett stated are not magic, its in the instructions of the KBs to run .0065 per inch of bore on the top ring and .004 on the second ring. This is NOT conventional wisdom and is dictated by the design of the top ring land and the compression bevel between the top and second rings that PROMOTES sealing... Conventional wisdom calls for .004" r ing gap per " of bore and if that spec is used with these you are GUARANTEED to not have optimum results.

I would be willing to bet that Andy's rings were not hastings, they were probably Grant rings that are not worth a damn no matter what piston you have.

The KB pistons have and contiue to impress me in their characteristics of sealing and blowby. I have dozens of high mileage engines running them, including two of my own.

I recommend the pistons above all others FOR street applications, because I have seen all the rest and know the huge differences.

There is also a 90% chance that Andy had NEW (read junk) cylinders and that no one even bothered to even check the ring gaps (that always have to be filed with 96mm pistons because all the ring packs are designed for 2.3L Ford Pinto engines and are slightly too large).

Couple new cylinders with rings that were more than likely not gapped correctly and skirt clearances that were probably excessive (some new cylinders when cupled with a KB 3.7795 piston have a whopping .004 skirt clearance) and causing the issues to worsen is not enough evidence to condemn a piston as harshly as the previous poster did..

I have built not one, not two, not dozens but HUNDREDS of engines with these pistons and my methds and have never seen the issues that would lead me to believe they are anything but exceptional.

Setting them up is not rocket science, but it takes more effort than sliding them inside a set of Chinese or Mexican cylinders and slapping a set of rings in the box and thats how most of them are sold and YES I can see how that could cause issues. sing these pistons did take a bit of a learning curve for us, but that was like 6 years ago and now I use more of these than any other piston... Hell my New 2016cc Turbo will be running a set at about 20 PSI boost.

QUOTE

I don't believe these pistons qualify as custom pistons. Sure they are custom in the sense that someone took a chevy blank and machined it down to fit the 96 mm bore in the motor

For the record these pistons are based on a 2.3L Ford blank, the 4 cylinder engine used in a HUGE amount of SCCA classes and all sorts of other race applications for the past 30 years. This piston is only .0023 smaller than the 2.3L Ford version.

QUOTE

the skirts were so increibly thin as to be very dangerous and likely not last very long at all.

Then how come I have 87K on a set in my 912 E without a rattle and with only 3% leakdown after all those miles??

QUOTE

The pin keepers were of a weak design too

Really?? They are the same exact clips that hold the wrist pins in place in Racer Chris' F Production engine and she's good for 8500 revs... They are so damn strong that we resuse them sometimes even on full race engines like Chris'

QUOTE

These pistons might work with a lot of prep and far a race motor that is going to be torn apart after a few miles but for a street motor to last

And I could not disagree more...

Once again please do not gain an opposition to these pistons based on one instance guaranteed to have variables that could lead to inaccurate assumptions of the product in question.

BTW- I have never seen one have any failure that was not associated with lack of correct preparation- Not a single one out of hundreds of uses of them thats in street OR race form.

[cnavarro]

I too have excellent results with the Keith Blacks when paired up with Nickies in the 96mm bore. With care as to the proper clearance and ring gaps, they perform admirably and are significantly cheaper than JEs. They are light and allow very tight piston cylinder clearances, which you just can't do with a JE and a cast iron cylinder.

If you must run JEs in a race engine turning high rpms, you'll want to go all out and coat the skirts as well as opt for the H11 tool steel pins, dual forced pin oilers, split oil return, internal lightening (I personally only do so when paired with Ti rods), and cam the piston as such with a significantly hotter cam than the street .0015" taper put on the skirts. There are lots of other details to consider, but those are the biggies.

The piston is as much a point of contention as the cylinder you are using- I was just down at Aircooled Technology when they were pressure testing an engine which an audible leak could be heard. First the valves and then heads were checked and then the NEW cast iron cylinders were found to have a hole in the bore. Talk about dynamic compression! Bore out a good ol' german cylinder and have it cryogenically treated while you are at it and set up the clearances per the manufacturer's specifications.

[Brett W]

Please do not "internally lighten" pistons. This will alter the way the skirts can react to operational stresses. Unless the piston was designed with a focus on minimum wieght do not remove large quantities of material from the underside of the crown, areas around the wristpin boss, and around the skirt. Balancing a piston is one thing but most current high quality race will not need large quantities of material removed to balance.

Wiesco has one of the best piston developement departments, followed by CP and JE. For most Street and race applications you don't need the lightest piston available.

Here is a current race piston that has been lightened but it was designed for this. This is drag race only piston. No it is not going in a T4.

[cnavarro]

Brett,

I agree wholeheartedly. Most pistons actually get reinforced skirts now that I think about it. I've only done two sets internally lightened in five years and both were for extremely light cars with Ti rods and very light rotating assemblies. The typical application does not call for such lengths of reducing rotating mass.

I personally have never used the forged side relief forgings from JE like you've shown because no one can really give me a good figure for expansion when compared to STD slipper skirts. I'd hate to set up a set of Nickies and have them either sieze or run so loose that it's set up like a 10 cent whore (please excuse the expression).