type 4 turbo guys-, what turbo did you pick and why- Options

[ottox914]

Yea Jake, nice HiJack- I was going to mention that...

For the rest of us who either can't wait/can't afford/or just like to tinker around with our cars, looks like airsix, sammy, and bug man have BTDT. Anyone else? I'd like to know a little more, not so much about the engine mgmt used, but the hardware- what turbo, what A/R it has in the turbine and compressor sides, compressor maps, blow off valves, wastegates used, how soon do you get full boost, intercooling used, or not. I'd be more interested in massive torque than 25psi and lots of top end- Like those cones, and something more auto cross oriented than 1320 oriented is my quest. I was thinking water injection, as I used that on a ford focus I turbo'd, but in cruzing ebay, the subaru wrx/sti top mount intercoolers look good, with one inlet and 2 outlets, perfect to go along with my dual throttle bodies now on the car.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (ottox914 @ Oct 29 2005, 08:40 PM)

Yea Jake, nice HiJack- I was going to mention that... For the rest of us who either can't wait/can't afford/or just like to tinker around with our cars, looks like airsix, sammy, and bug man have BTDT. Anyone else? I'd like to know a little more, not so much about the engine mgmt used, but the hardware- what turbo, what A/R it has in the turbine and compressor sides, compressor maps, blow off valves, wastegates used, how soon do you get full boost, intercooling used, or not. I'd be more interested in massive torque than 25psi and lots of top end- Like those cones, and something more auto cross oriented than 1320 oriented is my quest. I was thinking water injection, as I used that on a ford focus I turbo'd, but in cruzing ebay, the subaru wrx/sti top mount intercoolers look good, with one inlet and 2 outlets, perfect to go along with my dual throttle bodies now on the car.

without knowing all of your engine specs, driving needs and a bunch of other stuff...it's too difficult to give you all the answers.....

I recommend going to amazon.com and buying one or more of the following:

Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes
Maximum Boost by Corky Bell
Turbomania by Bob Tomlinson

the last 2 are kinda old, but still good reading....it'll give you a good head start...

with many things, it's all how it's put together and used...for one person a turbo from a Ford T-bird might be too small for one persons needs and setup yet too big for yours....there is no one perfect setup, especially if trying to do it on the cheap...

in a nutshell in my personal opinion (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

intercooler yes (air to air)
the single turbo I am using is from a Dodge Stealth twin turbo (each rated to flow to 164hp under ideal conditions)
if you stick with a used turbo from a popular car, all the specs can be found on the internet

normally, the smaller the turbo, the quicker the response for low end torque....if you compete with your car, before you jump into adding a turbocharger, make sure you read the rules, the addition of a turbo to a car not factory equipped can cause you to find no place to play or classed with mega-dollar cars that you have no chance of ever beating....

[Mark Henry]

This is the slippery slope that I'm on...

I have a big 2.6 engine that was suppose to go in my teen...but I can always throw that in the '67 bug I'm building.

BUT the parts (2156cc) I just made a deal for are almost perfect for a turbo.

78mm crank, fly, PP, fan and rods, balanced by Jake

94mm Nickies, w/ type 1 94mm mahle's

Heads...I have 914 heads, but new squareport van heads might seal better.

SDS fuel injection and ignition. and a WB


The only reason to do a turbo is if I can keep my SSI heat exchangers...It gets freaking cold here.
Evil Ed kept his SSI's with no issues.

Thinking of the T3 because I can get them real easy.
The intercooler on the VW 1.8T engine is nice and compact.

How much heat comes off the intercooler? If the turbo is out of the bay could the intercooler be in the bay?

What cam???? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Mark,
Lets talk.. You and I work well together and I think you'd be a great Guinea pig with Me=ueller's old parts!

I will say that I'm keeping a serious log book through all this testing as to what and when things start to happen so I'll have the info that has never been available before, undoubtedly with different Turbos.

Doing the Turbo thing yourself will continue to be a guessing game more than likely, simply because there are variables that each person will hit, mostly dependant upon the components used.

Those design flaws with the TIV engine that I always mention are still present, so we must all, keep those heavily in mind when watching the boost climb!

[ottox914]

Mr Mueller, the ?'s you pose have already been addressed, in my mind, but not in print, so here goes-

Engine is a relatively stock 2.0, euro p/c's, little shaving to the heads, probably around 9.2:1, don't know, didn't build it myself.


Driving needs- more fun! And autoX, so torque>Hp in my mind.

Got the Bell book, refer to it daily when day dreaming...

I know, there is no one size fits all solution... just looking to learn from the experience of others, what has worked, what has not, and why.

AutoX classing. Turbo=SM2, which is fine. There are plenty of fast cars there, usually 1/2 of out top 10 come from that group. I'm consistantly top 30 or better out of 150+ car grids with the relatively stock motor. One of the fastest SM2 cars is a 73 Opel GT, with around 180 at the crank. So I'm shooting for around 180 at the crank as well. It may not be a national car when I'm done, but our chief driving instructor told me when I started all this silliness 5 yrs ago- you can build a car you enjoy 6 days of the week, and it is what it is on the 7th day, accept that and drive it, or you can build that world beater ultimate car for the 7th day, but don't expect it to be streetable for more than a drive to the DQ on those other 6 days... I'm building a 6 day car, and it is what it is on the 7th. I've had 2 top 10 finishes in my car this season, (on short tracks, of course) and have proven to myself and anyone else who would care that I can drive and the 914 certainly IS a weapon to be respected!!! Building the car I want to own, not necessairily the one I'd want to race(nationally).

My theory on the turbo project- I built a turbo Ford Focus that ran an "Aerocharger" brand turbo, 8psi, and the Focus is known to have a high static CR and agressive timing. I used "aquamist" water injection, but later changed to an air/water system with better results. Some chip tuning for the timing, larger injectors, and I had a totally stealth honda destroyer. Sold it with 66k miles on it, it now has 111k miles, and still going strong. I like the idea of keeping some compression for off the line grunt, adding some turbo for midrange, using sensible tuning parameters, and I ended up with a great daily driver. I hope to duplicate that success with the 914. It may not end up being as totally optomised as one of Jakes setups, but, hey, I like to mess with cars a bit, and if I was building that 7th day car, looking for the last tenth of a HP, Jake would be my man. At this stage of the game, I'm not, so lets share research and have some fun in the garage.

Any help on web sites with compressor maps?

Currently considering a "low pressure" turbo off a Saab 2.0. Any thoughts on that?

Mueller, I'm sure you've done your own research resulting in your choice of the turbo off the Stealth, but if that is at its max pumping 164 hp, is that maybe a bit small? I would think, being at the high end of the efficency for that unit, that you could be pumping alot of heat as well as boost. What were your thoughts in picking that unit and managing the heat? Not being critical, just asking...

[Mueller]

QUOTE

Mueller, I'm sure you've done your own research resulting in your choice of the turbo off the Stealth, but if that is at its max pumping 164 hp, is that maybe a bit small? I would think, being at the high end of the efficency for that unit, that you could be pumping alot of heat as well as boost. What were your thoughts in picking that unit and managing the heat? Not being critical, just asking...

to be honest with you, no, I didn't research that particular turbo until after I bought it (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

turbo info and a half-a-dozen maps

For the motor I "was" going to build, my turbo would have been way too small, in fact the motor should have put out 160hp without a turbo as is.

Now that I am "stuck" with a 1.8 (I have 2 complete 1.8's), I think the turbo will complement it very well.

Corky Bell as well as others view water injection as a "band-aid", yes, it does work and serve a purpose, however, it's a consumable which always needs replacing and is one more thing to have to tend to...if you used it in the past then you have disipline to make sure it's always filled it, nothing worse than being on the gas in the heat of battle and running out of water (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

I like the advice from your driving instructor...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

[rick 918-S]

imachappy is a turbo 6 guy. he's btdt and i've seen his work. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

[J P Stein]

A few observations:
Turbo cars that do well at AX are all fairly modern. All are EFI and all have boost come in at fairly low revs....The best of the bunch
seems to be the 3rd gen RX7 (I'll exclude the GT-2 Por$che) in the 2 WD group. I'm sure there is a trick to keeping even these cars on the boost....left foot braking? 4WD cars operate on a different level & don't have much to do with this discussion.

I've AXed Mr.2, but only in the rain. It was pathetic. Doing an AX course sideways is fun, but not the quick way around.
I have a buddy that does pretty well in his Mr2 T tho.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Oct 30 2005, 08:49 AM)

A few observations: Turbo cars that do well at AX are all fairly modern. All are EFI and all have boost come in at fairly low revs....The best of the bunch seems to be the 3rd gen RX7 (I'll exclude the GT-2 Por$che) in the 2 WD group. I'm sure there is a trick to keeping even these cars on the boost....left foot braking? 4WD cars operate on a different level & don't have much to do with this discussion. I've AXed Mr.2, but only in the rain. It was pathetic. Doing an AX course sideways is fun, but not the quick way around. I have a buddy that does pretty well in his Mr2 T tho.

Hey JP, at the SCCA auto-x you came down to CA for this year, there was a wicked quick Nissan 240SX that was turbocharged..of course since they didn't come from the factory with turbos, it was all aftermarket or from a donor car.....

turbo lag sucks, I've tracked my Volvo on the big track and nothing like trying to antipate when the turbo is finally going to spool up (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

[J P Stein]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Oct 30 2005, 08:33 AM)

Hey JP, at the SCCA auto-x you came down to CA for this year, there was a wicked quick Nissan 240SX that was turbocharged..of course since they didn't come from the factory with turbos, it was all aftermarket or from a donor car..... turbo lag sucks, I've tracked my Volvo on the big track and nothing like trying to antipate when the turbo is finally going to spool up (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

Yes, he was quick.
He started with EFI I assume. Wasn't a Japanese market only trubo 240sx?
There was also a 3 gen RX7 with an alloy SBC. Loved that.
There were lots of wicked quich cars there, not the least
of which was Steve Nilsony"s(sp) 914 who was right up there in the top 3-4 (minus the carts).

[Sammy]

Yup, turbo aint zackly the hot set up for AX.
My SC prolly turns about the same lap times now as it did before the turbo, even tho it has at least 75 hp more. 80% of the time ay an AX you can't use the boost, the other 20% of the time you wish you weren't using it so much (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)
It always seems to come on too strong at a time when I'm not all the way ready for it. Instant tank slapper.
The turbo 914 did the same thing but was more controllable because of the lower weight and torque.

[Andyrew]

If your going to autox, I'd say run a smaller turbo than you are thinking. You want the boost to be made fast. I saw an accura turbo with a Vtech engine autox regularly in SCCA. 3 grand... NOTHING, ba ba ba ba.. V tech kicks in... 140hp... gets louder. wait for it, wait for it.. boost starts, and it sounds like its pms'ing on steriods, seriously loud.. But for only like .5 rpms, then he either has to brake, or he shifts....

Sucks for daily driving too...
With 2 944 turbo's at home, The smaller turbo is much more comfortable with daily driving on and off the throttle than a big turbo lag with what feels like a 200 shot of nos....

I say TO3 with a smaller hot side of the turbo than norm...or something simular.... I cant give you any specs right now.. I just dont know.... lol

theres my ramble, Hope theres a sentence in there that helps!!

[Mueller]

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Oct 30 2005, 06:27 PM)

blah, blah.....blah....blah (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) theres my ramble, Hope theres a sentence in there that helps!!

yep....seems like a positive displacement supercharger would be much better for an auto-x car (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/burnout.gif)

[Andyrew]

All imza sayin is a smaller turbo would be better for street an autox rather than a larger turbo with more peek hp....

You can run more boost with a smaller turbo to make up the hp...

[airsix]

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Oct 30 2005, 06:20 PM)

All imza sayin is a smaller turbo would be better for street an autox rather than a larger turbo with more peek hp....

This is why I used the little IHI. Why use a turbo that doesn't get into it's own until 6,500rpm when you can't even run up there? My objectives would be different for a track or DE car, but for a street driven autocross ride I want all the fun to happen between 3-5k rpm.

-Ben M.

[ottox914]

All of the above comments are proven in the real world. 2 of our top street mod cars are supercharged, not turbo'd. One of our top 5 FTD's is regularly a second gen MR2 turbo. Guy beats it like a stray dog, but he's fast w/a turbo. I've instructed in WRX's that NEED left foot braking to keep it up on the snort, but to compare, the STI's just plain GO! Just gotta get the turbo sized for your needs. The danger for all of us is going TO small on the exhaust side- to small = more back pressure and more heat in the exhaust system, making its way back to the heads. In a system like Ben's, with long runs and stock heat exchangers, I would expect that system could soak up some heat before "hot heads" became a problem. I'll be making a header system direct from the heads to the turbo, so the "heat sink" capasity of my exhaust system will not be as great.

Ben- can you have a look at your turbo and see if the compressor and turbine housings have the A/R cast into them? I'd be interested to know that relationship. I agree with fun from 3-5k, since with a stock cam and valve train, we make more noise than power above 5k anyway-

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Oct 30 2005, 10:23 AM)

Mark, Lets talk.. You and I work well together and I think you'd be a great Guinea pig with Me=ueller's old parts! I will say that I'm keeping a serious log book through all this testing as to what and when things start to happen so I'll have the info that has never been available before, undoubtedly with different Turbos.

Sounds cool (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Except for the cam and turbo I have almost everything I need.

I'd be willing to do some prototype fab work, share data, maps for.... advice, guidance and of course I need a cam.

I have a SDS WB that can datalog. I could change the cam or turbo once a year at least, during the winter jackstand time.
I'm able to do just about anything fab wise, I could probably do a quick change for different turbos.

I also have a swiss machinest who can do anything. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)


Above all... it has to be on the road for April.

[Jake Raby]

I'd like to set you up with my Turbo and header/wastegate assembly since you already have the same EFI I'll be using.

And of course the 914 version of the DTM.

You can be my canuck guinea pig!

Cam is no problem. I already have 4 Turbo specific grinds and I designed 3 more before I left for my trip- they are being ground as we speak.

Looks like after I melt these few engines I'll end up rebuilding them a few times and I'll surely sell them CHEAP after I'm all finished with them..

[Sammy]

A nuther hard lesson I learned, the last step to make a car faster at an AX is add horsepower.
It costs valuable points and moves you up in class, but doesn't lower the times near as much as tires, suspension, gearing, lowering weight, etc.
Only after you have done everything else imaginable to the car do you add horsepower.
I've done it three times (slow learner). I built up the power on a Porsche, chocked up 25 points or more and ended up in a much higher class, only to be spanked by cars with 1/2 the power. They spent the points to go fast in the corners, I spent the points to go fast in the straights. There are lots more corners than straights on an AX track so they won.
Of course, if the car is driven on the street as well as at AX, a little extra power can be fun (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

Horsepower makes a big difference on a big track and a small difference on a small track but it costs the same points.

[agrump]

Hey Jake,

Will there be a heater box version of the exhaust? Is this meant to be a daily driver type of upgrade or more of a performance damn the torpedoes thing?

Thanks,

Dean