I'm depressed, 2 hours of dyno time for nut'n....., Ignition cr@pped out, wouldn't restart:( Options

[Mueller]

QUOTE (airsix @ Nov 3 2005, 10:11 AM)

Mike, You had the link firing the coil before? I thought you were running the link fuel-only. If the link was firing the coil, where was the ECU getting it's timing signal from? Was it getting it from a pickup mounted in the distributor (like a pertronix or optical pickup?). If you were feeding a timing signal to the link via the distributor, is your distributor locked? The link would need to get it's timing signal at the same crank-angle regardless of rpm/load. An unlocked dizzy will change the angle at which the ECU get's it's signal depending on rpm/load and the ECU will calculate the wrong crank-possition. I know you know this - I'm currious how you were feeding the crank signal to the Link though. -Ben M.

optical sensor in Unilite(locked)>Link>MSD*>Coil

the Link needs to see the signal 10° BTDC, I modified the rotor as a half-@ss attempt of changing the relationship between the rotor electrode and the trigger windows of the rotor...I need to make them indepentant of each other

*MSD acts as an ignitor or coil driver, to me it's just an on/off switch to dump the voltage on the coil

aaron, I'm going to get rid of the optical sensor and replace it with a Hall effect unit, if it works as planned, I'll be selling the unilite sensor (sorta cheap (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) )

Fiid,

I've been reading more on the MSv3, pretty cool, I should waited...oh well....


James,

I'll be looking more on msefi for info on that driver, on the surface it seems too simple to be able to completly replace the MSD, but if it could, that would be nice....

[lapuwali]

You're going to pull the Unilite and fit your own Hall-sensor to the Mallory? Why?

Stop re-engineering things that work, dude...

Seriously, run the Link fuel only with the Mallory returned to normal operating mode. AFTER you get it all tweaked and working, use some junk 009 locked to fire the ignition using a Hall sensor, the Link, and the MSD box. You can swap back to the working Mallory quickly, so you can take your time to get the ignition system sorted and still have a usable car. Alternatively, you could leave the 009 unlocked and provide the crank signals from the fan using a method like Ben's, then you won't have the rotor phasing problem anymore, and you can still switch back to the Mallory to run the ignition at any time to restore the car to working order.

[airsix]

Okay, that makes sense. Sounds good. I'm currious about the Link only needing it's signal 10 degrees before TDC. How does it trigger the coil at say 27 degrees before TDC if it doesn't get its input signal until 10 degrees before TDC? Does it count off 323 degrees before it fires (ie. it's always behind one rotation). My ECU get's its input signal at 44 degrees before TDC so it has time to "think" before firing the coil at up to 40 degrees (high vacuum) BTDC.

-Ben M.

ps - Watts, you crack me up.

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Nov 3 2005, 11:16 AM)

You're going to pull the Unilite and fit your own Hall-sensor to the Mallory? Why? Stop re-engineering things that work, dude... Seriously, run the Link fuel only with the Mallory returned to normal operating mode. AFTER you get it all tweaked and working, use some junk 009 locked to fire the ignition using a Hall sensor, the Link, and the MSD box. You can swap back to the working Mallory quickly, so you can take your time to get the ignition system sorted and still have a usable car. Alternatively, you could leave the 009 unlocked and provide the crank signals from the fan using a method like Ben's, then you won't have the rotor phasing problem anymore, and you can still switch back to the Mallory to run the ignition at any time to restore the car to working order.

word. stop reinventing the wheel.

if link sucks for timing, just use it for fuel. get it running and driving....have some fun....and the fuck it up (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

[lapuwali]

The Link may use a "next cylinder" method, which is similar to what some GM systems do, and MS has a mode for it. The pulse arrives X degrees before cylinder C, but the ignition is calculating the advance for cylinder C+1. So, the pulse is really 90 + X crank degrees before the plug that's actually being fired, on a four-cylinder engine.

[airsix]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Nov 3 2005, 11:50 AM)

The Link may use a "next cylinder" method, which is similar to what some GM systems do, and MS has a mode for it. The pulse arrives X degrees before cylinder C, but the ignition is calculating the advance for cylinder C+1. So, the pulse is really 90 + X crank degrees before the plug that's actually being fired, on a four-cylinder engine.

That's cool. I like it. Thanks for explaining.

-Ben M.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Nov 3 2005, 11:16 AM)

You're going to pull the Unilite and fit your own Hall-sensor to the Mallory? Why? Stop re-engineering things that work, dude...

why?

frustration, stupidity, fear of the unilit failing....I dunno (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

I believe I have a much better grasp on things right now, I just made some errors that I can fix...I'll just have to write off the money spent on the dyno as a learning experiance not to monkey around with certain components.....it's my own fault for not making sure the timing was dead-nuts on.....on the plus side, I learned about some more neat electrical components that I could use for other things in the near future (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

James is correct....current cylinder upto 500 rpms,
next cylinder for above 500 rpms.

[fiid]

You can make the v2 megasquirt do everything that the v3 does - you just need a daughterboard and some wiring between the boards.

I would use two coil drivers and run wasted spark. It would only need two coil drivers, and an edis coilpack - which you already have right? Then you get rid of the dizzy altogether (all solid state).

Can the link do direct spark with two coil drivers?

[Mueller]

QUOTE (fiid @ Nov 3 2005, 04:45 PM)

Can the link do direct spark with two coil drivers?

Yes it can....I'll get this version running perfect, no need to give up or tackle another possible problem (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

[Mueller]

hmmmm...I just got an e-mail from Link, I asked for the wiring diagram for wasted spark (you only get the diagram for what you originally configured the Link for, I told them dizzy so those are the diagrams I got, however the box will do more with just a click of the mouse)


anyways....both the home office of Link in New Zealand and their US rep recommend staying with the distributor saying that for the most part that I will not achieve gains by going with COPs or conventional wasted spark.

I just have the fear of the MSD box going south on me...luckly I have an spare unit, not that I want to carry it around (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

[Aaron Cox]

mike - hijack... how do you TIME a MSD style igintion? will it read 4x as high? (4 sparks vs 1) {below 3000 rpm}

[Mueller]

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 3 2005, 05:19 PM)

mike - hijack... how do you TIME a MSD style igintion? will it read 4x as high? (4 sparks vs 1) {below 3000 rpm}

good question, I wondered if the multiple spark had an impact on the timing light...hopefully James will reply and give us some of his knowledge on the subject (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif)

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 3 2005, 05:27 PM)

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 3 2005, 05:19 PM) mike - hijack... how do you TIME a MSD style igintion? will it read 4x as high? (4 sparks vs 1) {below 3000 rpm} good question, I wondered if the multiple spark had an impact on the timing light...hopefully James will reply and give us some of his knowledge on the subject (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif)

oh bummer - i was hoping you knew...

James???

logic would say that when timed over 3k, it SHOULDNT be an issue, due to returning back to a SINGLE spark setup....
but might make timing initial advance at idle more fun (XXX / 4) lol

[lapuwali]

Multi-spark boxes usually confuse adjustable timing lights, just as wasted spark systems do (the knob will no longer be accurate in terms of degrees of advance). However, most multi-spark systems are done by 3000rpm or thereabouts, so if you follow the usual rule and actually time for max advance, you're alright. Some of the newer whizzo timing lights have adjustments for multiple sparks per rev (wasted spark), though I don't know if any of them (yet) adjust for multiple sparks per event.

For non-adjustable timing lights, you'll get a flash per spark, and one of them will happen at the "right" time (the actual point of advance), so you'll still see the mark. Your eye is slow enough to respond that the multiple flashes shouldn't hurt, although the mark may appear to be more "ghostly" than usual.

So, for timing with a multi-spark box on a 914, mark the fan for max advance as well as TDC, and use a non-adjustable light, or an adjustable one set to 0.

[Aaron Cox]

rock on james....

so, an adjustable one set at max advance, ABOVE 3k, would not work?

[McMark]

It would work only if your particular CDI/MSD box switches to single sequential spark above 3k. AFAIK, most MSD boxes switch to standard 1 spark for each cylinder above 3k and so an adjustable timing light would work okay. But as I mentioned, anyone who is curious about this should check the documentation for their particular brand and model.

[TimT]

QUOTE

mike - hijack... how do you TIME a MSD style igintion? will it read 4x as high? (4 sparks vs 1) {below 3000 rpm}

always check total advance, granted what happens regarding ignition advance between 1000 rpm and 7000rpm does matter, but total advance matters most, on distributor based systems. Checking timing wit h MSD or Crane multi-spark boxes is the same as with any other system.

Another note to add is many aftermarket EFI systems rely on a crank reference. usually this is Cyl 1 TDC, however you cant expect the system to fire Cyl 1, 24 or so degrees before TDC if the ECU sees the TDC event at TDC?. (wondering if this make sense)

So you tell the ECU how many degrees to offset the Cyl 1 spark event. To do this you need to know the static timing.. ie how many degrees the system makes with no correction from the ECU

I have lots more to add to this but I can hardly keep my eyes open now LOL. Work get in the way way to often