Yet another welder Q, 110 v 220 Options

[lapuwali]

I've read through a lot of the welder questions, and one topic regularly mentioned is 110 v 220, with "220 is better" usually being expressed.

Now, I can understand the amps v. volts v. power issue (power to actually melt something is measured in Watts, which is amps x volts. However, power through a wire is essentially amp-limited, and power through a household circuit is very much limited by the breaker, which is amp-limited). 110v x 20a is 2200W, where 220v x 20a is 4400W, so 220v definitely gives you more power.

However, how much power do you actually NEED for car work? Most of the time, you'd be welding 16-20g sheet, except for things like engine mounts, cages, and the like, where you might use thick-walled tube, but still you're unlikely to use much over 1/8" wall, even for a cage.

Aluminum welding would require more power, but (IMHO) would also really require TIG. So, for steel work using MIG, how much power do you really require? What's the highest amp setting normally seen when doing the kind of welding you'll see on a 914 (or any other typical car)?

[Mueller]

the distance from the power outlet is one key factor...short distance, 110v, longer use of cords, 220v

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 7 2005, 02:30 PM)

the distance from the power outlet is one key factor...short distance, 110v, longer use of cords, 220v

Granted. Let's say 20ft max, which would take you from one side of a typical garage to the other.

I'm trying to get some idea of really WHEN 110v would be inadequate.

[sj914]

For an extension cord using 20 ft extension, you would need at least 12guage cord. I made the mistake once of using 14guage HD cord and I couldn't get very good penetration or get a decent bead to run. As soon as I switched to 12guage The welder started working good, almost burnt a hole through 1/8inch plate.

[Spoke]

I just purchased a Millermatic 135 110V welder and have welded stuff on my 914 like connection tab on a sway bar, muffler hanger, and some sheet metal. Specs for 100V welders show 1/4 in mild steel capability in a single pass, whereas 220V welders allow 5/16 inch.

The one item that sold me on 110V was availability of 220V (NOT!) in my garage and the reality that most of the welding for my 914 would involve steel much thinner than 1/4 in. So far so good with the 110V welder.

As I say 110V is ok, someone will opine that 220V is the way to go. This is similar to HP for your 914. If 100HP is ok, 120HP is better, 140HP is even better, ...

Spoke

[jd74914]

As far as I know, the only time you really need 220V is when you are welding really heavy stuff like plate steel for fixing truck and tractor frames. So for car stuff you really don't need to extra voltage.

IIRC, most of the 110 units have a lesser duty cycle than the 220 ones. That said, we got a 220 because my dad and I occassionally do some heavy welding.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

[Mueller]

my 135amp 110v unit right now is having a hard time penetrating the .060" square tubing I'm welding for a co-worker...I too bought my welder for car sheet metal, but have found myself using it for other projects

[fiid]

I have a shitty-assed home despot welder and I've never had any problems apart from Aluminum welding not going very well. It's 110v and I run it on a knob-and-tube circuit on the end of about 20 feet of extension cord.

I have to say that I've had much better experiences since I got the mig kit for it.

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (Spoke @ Nov 7 2005, 02:47 PM)

I just purchased a Millermatic 135 110V welder and have welded stuff on my 914 like connection tab on a sway bar, muffler hanger, and some sheet metal. Specs for 100V welders show 1/4 in mild steel capability in a single pass, whereas 220V welders allow 5/16 inch. The one item that sold me on 110V was availability of 220V (NOT!) in my garage and the reality that most of the welding for my 914 would involve steel much thinner than 1/4 in. So far so good with the 110V welder. As I say 110V is ok, someone will opine that 220V is the way to go. This is similar to HP for your 914. If 100HP is ok, 120HP is better, 140HP is even better, ... Spoke

Well, there are specs, and there's reality. Welding 1/4", would, I'd think, require a lot of power, and is way more than I can imagine ever using. The usual number for wall thickness on a rollcage is about 0.090", and I know people who regularly build good motorcycle spaceframes with 0.060 wall tube. I'd say 0.125 is about the upper limit of anything I'd ever use for anything.

Let's ignore duty cycle, which is really only a need for someone in a hurry (like someone trying to make money welding). Most of us can wait.

My motivation here is twofold: one, I've read the "go 220" comment pretty often, but with no real data to back it up (instant red flag); two, I CAN run 220 to my garage, but I'd really prefer not to unless I really need it. The only 220 outlets in the house are on the opposite side of the house from the garage, and the breaker panel is as far from the garage as it can be.

[yellowFV]

I have a 220 Volt Lincoln MIG... Your correct you really only need 110 volt and when welding sheet you'll be on the absolute lowest setting for the 220 volt machine. The main argument for the 220 Volt Machine is that you can weld faster on heavier steel. I found that once I owned a welder there were alot of projects I wanted to do with the 220 volt machine.

made my own steel work bench(after I had the top bent at local fabricator)
welded up a welder cart with rolling wheels
Made a set of large jackstands with a pipe socket that fits right around the 914 jackpoint doughnuts.
Steel shelves for shop.
Steel Jig for Pulling rear wheel bearings.

Point is you may think of a million things you can now make easily with a welder, sawzall and a jig saw to cut 14 ga sheet.

What is not subject to debate is Gas Shielded Vs. Flux Wire... If you try to go without the Gas Bottle option on the Lincoln and other small MIG machines you will only frustrate yoursellf with crappy looking welds. Buy the Gas shield option and you'll be laying down beautiful mig welds in on weekend of playing with it.

rob

[Mueller]

I built the frame of this cleanroom in my garage, at first I used my 110v welder, finally borrowed a 220v (higher amperage also) to finish it.

.125" wall, too difficult to get good welds with the 110v...so I guess it was an unfair comparison since both machines had different amp ratings..

......so I guess my advice would be to buy the highest amp rating 110v that fits in your budget (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

[airsix]

QUOTE (jd74914 @ Nov 7 2005, 02:47 PM)

IIRC, most of the 110 units have a lesser duty cycle than the 220 ones.

This is the biggest PRACTICAL difference IMHO. With my 110v / 135 amp Hobart I've needed LESS power a lot more often than I've ever needed MORE. Granted, a more powerful welder could weld heavy stuff more quickly, but I've successfully welded 5/8" plate with it and had the welds pass an engineer's inspection. I can't imagine I'll have much need to weld thicker stuff than that. Where I HAVE had trouble is welding REALLY thin stuff (~20ga.)

-Ben M.

[Dr. Roger]

Hmmm, I've got a 110V wire feed. No gas, just flux core wire.
It get's the thin wall stuff done OK. Nothing pretty. And I have to work the speed and Amperage to make a decent pass. A gas bottle would help. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) I was using this welder to weld up a couple of art car frames and found the duty cycle many many times..... LOL It did the job though and I'm hanging on to this one.

My 220V Lincoln Stick welder is great in that I can use some 7018 rod, reverse the polarity if needed for greater penetration, and AC or DC welding. I put together a winch mount for my Tacoma and tested the welds by hanging my truck in a tree by a winch cable. Fun!

If I ever need to buy another welder it's going to be a TIG. Purdy welds and can weld aluminum and stainless. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

[IronHillRestorations]

It has to have gas to really be MIG. The I stands for Inert, and the G stand for Gas. Flux core wire welders are really a stick welder with a thin stick on a roll. I don't think you'll find a 220 MIG unit, that doesn't have gas. Does this tell you anything?

Like sj914 said, the length and gauge of the extension cord will effect the welding performance. So use the shortest ext. cord you can.

You can weld anything you'll need on a 914 just fine with a 110 rig with a gas set up. Just get a good one, ie Miller, Hobart, Century, HTP, Lincoln.

[TimT]

heat input for welding is measured in joules

for most home welding a 110V unit is more than adequate, welding sheet metal repairs, brackets, roll cages etc are well within the realm of a 110 unit. Joint preparation will be important with heavier pieces such as the roll cage tubing.

I had a cheapo harbor freight unit for years (like almost 15) and it served well on a few car projects. I finally broke down and replaced it when it finally did just break!

[lapuwali]

Joules = watts x seconds, so just move the gun more slowly if lower wattage, up to a practical limit, I'm sure.

No argument on MIG v. flux core.

So, other than Mike, it appears everyone thinks 110v really is adequate for my proposed workload, which I'd guess matches the workload of 99% of people looking for a garage welder.

As for making things like workbenches, et al, IMHO, if I'm willing to ride or drive in or on a spaceframe made of 0.060 tubing, I'd think a workbench frame made of the same stuff would be plenty.

[Mueller]

QUOTE (9146986 @ Nov 7 2005, 06:10 PM)

It has to have gas to really be MIG. The I stands for Inert, and the G stand for Gas. Flux core wire welders are really a stick welder with a thin stick on a roll. I don't think you'll find a 220 MIG unit, that doesn't have gas. Does this tell you anything?

tells me it's just as cost effective to build a dual use/purpose machine when you get into the bigger amperage units, besides it's smarter for the companies to make one machine that can do 2 functions (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

Flux core welding should not be looked down upon at all...for some jobs, the use of the MIG is better, but there will always be jobs where one tool is better than another.....personally, I like Flux-Core Wire welding for some of the side projects I've done lately....the inert gas would be a PITA due to wind and logistics.

If Flux core welding was that bad, you'd think they wouldn't be offering so many different wire grades and options.

[McMark]

Mike, something's wrong with the 110v machines you've been using. I've only used a Lincoln WeldPak 100 110v MIG up until recently. Wire size has a lot to do with how much power you can transmit. If you're using 0.023" or 0.025" wire, it's too small for thick material. The only time I think I'd need a 220v MIG is if I were welding 3/8" think or larger material. With the 100v I could get away with welding 1/8" stuff with the small wire, but for thicker stuff I'd use 0.035" flux core. So I say 110v for car work.

BTW, I love my TIG for body panels. Very workable welds. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/drooley.gif)

[TimT]

I just completed a job on one of the major suspension bridges that connect Long Island to the rest of New York. The weld procedure called for FCAW and if you look into the AWS d 1.X or bridge specs you see that shielding gas is required with flux core welding.. And NYS steel constrcution manual prohibits these welds

However since the bridge in question is owned by an independant entity, they deemed flux core was OK....

oops sorry I digress

[BGman]

I just learned to weld (kinda) on my own...a friend at work got me started and showed me the basics to get me started. I spent around $800 to get a Miller 135 w/gas, gloves, hood, cart, etc....

It is a better welder than I will ever need. I have never welded anything on the 914 that required me to turn it up very far at all. I have welded parts back together on my lawnmower, my neighbors lawn tractor, built some weightlifting racks for another friend out of 1/8" angle iron stock and 3/4" rod (you will be amazad at how many new friends you will aquire), garage shelves, welded parts on to trailers, etc....

I am 100% happy with it.
I have welded up to 1/4" plate in practice....but then I started thinking---when would I ever need to weld something thicker than that?!?

-greg
Oh yeah, spend an extra few dollars on a good dual sensor automatic welding helmet...(just don't buy the absolute cheapest one they have). Dollars well spent.