subaru conversion kit?? Options

[MartyYeoman]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 9 2005, 02:13 PM)

QUOTE (Marty Yeoman @ Nov 9 2005, 01:58 PM) Can someone answer what happens to the cabin heat due to one of these conversions? interesting question Marty...I'd think the extra heat from the radiator in the back would be noticed mostly right after the car is shut off on a sorta related note...from the few articles I've read about the new Cayman, the heat from the engine makes the cabin warmer than in the Boxster.....

That's kind of an answer, but what happens to footwell heat, and more importantly defroster operation?

[Aaron Cox]

im sure you can run a heater core and a blower upfront in the cowl

[Mueller]

you mean cabin heat for comfort and use??

I wasn't sure if you meant the heat due to the location of the radiator ...silly me....

not sure about these suby conversions, but I've seen one conversion that had a standard heater core mounted in a box in the engine compartment...it tied into the factory ducting

[lapuwali]

I'd have to disagree.

There's presumably a reasonable market for people who wish to just buy this stuff who can't or won't make it themselves. If such a market didn't exist, there'd be little point in making the kits in the first place.

Now, if someone else comes along and copies your kit and starts to sell it, you have to beat them not with secrecy (which doesn't work for long), but with good support, good craftsmanship, and GOOD MARKETING. If you have good marketing, you'll even beat a guy that's undercutting your price significantly. How many people buy Coke or Pepsi instead of the cheaper store-brand cola? Indeed, really good marketing usually trumps even good support and good craftsmanship, at least for awhile. Ever tasted Red Bull? The stuff is crap, but they sell it for $2 a can, and have so much money to throw around they now own TWO Formula One teams. That's 100% good marketing.

Marketing is hard, and it's a part of the business that most businesses get wrong. You guys are doing something right, because if you ask any 914 owner "where can I get a V8 kit", the answer 90% of the time will be "Renegade Hybrids". That kind of brand recognition takes awhile to build up, and once it's in place, it's hard for competitors to work around.

However, once a brand is damaged, it's hard for that brand to recover. Your secrecy is, IMHO, damaging to you. Hiding it from view prevents people who might not buy it, but may recommend it to others, from doing that. I certainly wouldn't buy something that pricey and that hard to ship back w/o seeing it first.

[MartyYeoman]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 9 2005, 04:23 PM)

I've seen one conversion that had a standard heater core mounted in a box in the engine compartment...it tied into the factory ducting

That's what I thought you'd have to do to retain operation.
It seems like a step nobody talks about.
Would a heat exchanger similar to stock 914 design be practical?
It seems to me that you'd be frabricating a custom exhaust system anyway.

I wish I had pictures to point at!!!

[Mueller]

QUOTE (Marty Yeoman @ Nov 9 2005, 04:32 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 9 2005, 04:23 PM) I've seen one conversion that had a standard heater core mounted in a box in the engine compartment...it tied into the factory ducting That's what I thought you'd have to do to retain operation. It seems like a step nobody talks about. Would a heat exchanger similar to stock 914 design be practical? It seems to me that you'd be frabricating a custom exhaust system anyway. I wish I had pictures to point at!!!

water filled heat exchanger...basicly the same heater core in your pickup trunk under the dash.........

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (Marty Yeoman @ Nov 9 2005, 03:32 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 9 2005, 04:23 PM) I've seen one conversion that had a standard heater core mounted in a box in the engine compartment...it tied into the factory ducting That's what I thought you'd have to do to retain operation. It seems like a step nobody talks about. Would a heat exchanger similar to stock 914 design be practical? It seems to me that you'd be frabricating a custom exhaust system anyway. I wish I had pictures to point at!!!

No need to do this. A heater core is cheap and can be plumbed into the cooling system and mounted nearly anywhere. You can mount it low in the engine bay and have a box and fan around it that hot air into the stock heater ducting. Or, you can mount it inside the fresh air box in the front trunk area and have it just blow onto the windscreen. The stock heater control can open and close a valve to run coolant through this heater core or not, just like a normal water-cooled heater setup.

An exhaust heat-exchanger requires you to either make your exhaust out of stainless, or make it out of really thick (and heavy) material, or replace it regularly to keep from getting exhaust into the cabin. You're also needlessly complicating maintenance later when you have to remove the exhaust.

[TonyAKAVW]

I think no one has talked about a heating solution because its the last thing to worry about for most. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

I know I've thought about it, mostly because I want my wife to ride with me in the car at some point.

My plan is to actually use two small heater cores and two blowers. One for each longitudinal tube, and then up front have independent controls for the blower motors. That way you get climate control zones (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

Doing the exhaust heat exchanger idea is certainly doable but probably a LOT more complex. It seems like something to avoid if you can, for reasons of complexity, reliability, and the risk of poisoning yourself.

-Tony

[Mueller]

(IMG:http://members.rennlist.com/bluethunder/heater-13.JPG)

more pic's :

heater for V6 conversion

[MartyYeoman]

Thanks Mike.
Pictures tell the story best.
The conversion heaters are what I would think are most appropriate.
Just thought I'd ask.

[jsteele22]

Using exhaust gas as a source for heat is a horrible idea, not only because leaks bring poisonous fumes into the cabin, but also because gasses carry very, very little heat; water OTOH, can carry a huge amount. (If you want to cool a red-hot horseshoe, would you wave it around in the air, or dunk it in a barrel of water ?) The only reason to go with an exhaust heat exchanger is if there isn't any hot water available; i.e., air cooled engines.

I think the heater core idea is a good way to go. The core is just a smallish version of a conventional car radiator; a fan blows air over it to heat the cabin. The easy way is to keep it in the rear and use the stock hot air tubes in the chassis. Some heat is bound to be lost from the air going through the tubes, but it would still be way warmer than a "real" 914. Tony's idea of using two cores and two fans (comfort zones) would make for a seriously warm car. I can just imagine driving with the top off on a cold night w/ the heat cranked up...

BTW, I think I reacall Scott Thatcher saying that the heater core circuit on the EJ25 has to be connected in order for the coolant thermostat to function properly. But I (or he) may just be on crack.

About the kits question (wan't that what this thread was about ?) I think there's room for all sorts of approaches. I definitely wouldn't buy from Renegade (or anyone else), 'cause for me the whole point of doing a conversion is to figure stuff out myself and I get a huge satisfaction from being a CSOB. (It's a great feeling to look over at a (used) Hyundai and say to myself : "How can someone spend that much on a car ?") Others shudder at the thought of using untried, homebrew pieces on something as critical as the drive train, cooling system, ECU, etc. and want a super-refined look. No problem. One of the things I love about the 914 is the range of possibilities. At the RRC I saw cars w/ exhaust pipes that cost more than my whole car. At the end of the day, I think everyone had a blast in their own way and there wasn't any snobbery or competition.

[ewdysar]

The concept shown in the V6 conversion photos is nice, but the location shown may conflict with engine parts specific to your conversion. My V8 conversion will not allow the driver's fan as shown because of the remote water pump, the passenger side has room. If one were to add the AC option from Renegade, the compressor fills in the space on the passenger side.

The heat solution that is sold by Renegade, compatable with all of their watercooled 914 conversions (and others), replaces the fresh air box with a heater unit that pulls air from the footwell area only and is directable by the factory dash controls to the footwell vents or dashvents and defrosters (or mixed). A multi speed fan is operated with the top dash control, like stock. The flow to the heater core is controlled by the stock heater lever between the seats. The factory fresh air capabilities are removed with this kit. My car has sufficient heat, and the defrost capabilites are adequate.

My plans in the future involve separate heater cores in the back, feeding the stock system through the longs, but I want to figure a solution that will not interfere with the AC kit, another future project. I would also like to restore the stock fresh air box and all of it's features. When that happens, I'll have an used RH heat system available for purchase. But for now, I'm good to go... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)

As for Suby conversions, the engine compartment radiator option would conflict with the V6 style heater cores, the RH kit could still work. The available answers become more obvious when you're looking at the space left after your specific drivetrain is installed. Ahh, it takes a special type of person to own a custom car... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

Eric

[BIGKAT_83]

You can use a under dash AC evaperator /Heater with ducted defrost like this.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/blog-1131584808.jpg)

These sell for right at $200. If you want AC all you have to do is buy the complete kit for $450.

Do a search for Econo cooler.............

Bob

[TonyAKAVW]

Actually, even with the radiator in the engine bay, there's still plenty of room....

This picture is from mySubaru conversion thread ...

Don't mind the banged up radiator, thats just there for fitting.

[Mueller]

why couldn't you just use some bleed air off of the big radiator....???

[914werke]

QUOTE

Using exhaust gas as a source for heat is a horrible idea, not only because leaks bring poisonous fumes into the cabin, but also because gasses carry very, very little heat;

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ar15.gif) What are you talking about ...its been working effectivley in my stock teener for more than THIRTY YEARS!
And Im pretty sure no one has been poisened to death (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/barf.gif) including me. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

[andys]

QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Nov 9 2005, 05:44 PM)

QUOTE Using exhaust gas as a source for heat is a horrible idea, not only because leaks bring poisonous fumes into the cabin, but also because gasses carry very, very little heat; (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ar15.gif) What are you talking about ...its been working effectivley in my stock teener for more than THIRTY YEARS! And Im pretty sure no one has been poisened to death (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/barf.gif) including me. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

Every Porsche and VW on the planet, until recently, has used this system effectively and reliably. The beauty of the exhaust heater system, is that they heat up very quickly. As for your theromdynamics, don't forget that the heat source is much hotter than anything that comes from engine coolant, so losses realized through the system are inconsequencial.

Andys

[andys]

QUOTE (plymouth37 @ Nov 9 2005, 02:38 PM)

I wish it worked that way, but you would be amazed at how many people have taken a tour of our shop, taken photos, and then promptly went in to business. I know it is asking a lot to say "give me money, trust me it will be awesome.) but unfortunately that is how it is going to have to be. If you want to come out to vegas I would be more than happy to give you a ride in my car and show you the mount in the car and every thing. I would rather not post pics though. sorry.

Can you site an example? I personally can't think of any Rennegade copycat products, but perhaps there are.

I am myself a business owner, and sell/distribute products which I consider unique to our particular industry. Though we don't disclose materials or processing/manufacturing information, anyone could improve on them or simply copy them, but that's business/competition. Again, it comes down to product design, product quality, customer service, and price....And as someone mentioned, marketing (We actually took steps to conform to much higher FDA requirements as an edge to marketing/promotion).

BTW, I saw your car at the GAF. The packaging of the Subie ends up being quite tidy. Promote your engineering, design, reliability, and service....the DIY'ers will do their own thing regardless.

Andys

[neo914-6]

Here's Jon's super secret Suby mount ala TC Design. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif) Don't call him though because another weld-in mount makes it "un-marketable"...

[Porcharu]

I'm not going to copy anyones design (I already asked Scott if was OK to use what I believe to be his idea) for my proposed kit. For one it's just wrong, and besides the market is tiny I can't imagine selling any more than 10 kits - even if it is perfect and reasonably priced. I think I mentioned before that I don't really think I will make any money doing this, I hope to learn something (selling) and have some fun doing stuff I enjoy doing.