Anybody think a full conversion kit will be available in the near future, that will have everything you need to do a suby engine conversion. Meaning clutch, adapter, radiator, pre-fabricated engine mount. Basically everthing needed to bang it out. Im starting to fantisize about the suby 2.5 liter engine in my 914....


Mike

Renegade has one available now, or very soon. The radiator setup is available from them, but priced separately. You're looking at $3500 in conversion parts, plus an engine.

QUOTE (mike373 @ Nov 8 2005, 01:42 PM)

Anybody think a full conversion kit will be available in the near future, that will have everything you need to do a suby engine conversion. Meaning clutch, adapter, radiator, pre-fabricated engine mount. Basically everthing needed to bang it out. Im starting to fantisize about the suby 2.5 liter engine in my 914.... Mike

you can buy it right now.....

renegade hybrids

it couldn't hurt to ask for a discount on the radiator if buying the kit

Does that radiator only come as the front mounted type? Or do they offer one that can be mounted in the engine bay, as I saw on a recent post? Will that provide enough cooling in the engine bay?

Mike

QUOTE (mike373 @ Nov 8 2005, 02:35 PM)

Does that radiator only come as the front mounted type? Or do they offer one that can be mounted in the engine bay, as I saw on a recent post? Will that provide enough cooling in the engine bay? Mike

renegades kit is front mounted radiator...if you want the radiator in the engine compartment there is no kit as of yet, I'm sure someone such as Scott T. would make one for a "fee"

the advantage of the radiator in the front of the car is that you could more easily add a turbo or other performance upgrades and never worry about overheating the car....

the renegade radiator kit is pricey, but it works and it almost looks like it belongs installed in the car....

I plan on making a Suby kit. I am fairly serious about this - so far I have about $10K in tools and shop stuff to do work like this. I am picking up my engine, transmission and a CNC mill on Friday.

What I plan on making is "minimum parts" type of kit to mount a Suby engine AND transmission along with the mid mounted radiator that Scott T pioneered (if I make any money at this some of it will be shared with Scott.) The main design goal is to minimize any cutting or drilling on the car. I hope to be able to supply the mounts, the transmission AWD to FWD parts and the shift linkage along with part numbers for hoses, belts, radiator etc and instructions on how to do the swap.

Unfortunatly for the project (not for me) I have a new baby (our first) on the way, I hope I can get started this winter but I won't be suprised if being a new dad slows me down - alot. The good thing is my day job is really slow so I can dedicate more time to important things like engine swaps and kids.

The price will be very reasonable as I won't be reselling anything that I don't make or have made specifically for this project.

I'm predicting that many people will be selling parts for this conversion soon. There are a lot of people interested in doing the conversion and a fair number already in progress.

In terms of a complete kit, who knows. A complete kit would take considerable development time and effort. Especially to supply a plug and play wiring harness and so forth that works with the stock ECU and the 914, OR an aftermarket computer and the 914.

Also, one of the attractive parts of this conversion is the cost, so whoever sells kits or parts isn't going to be making a ton of money off of them. Either they sell to the few people who are willing to fork over lots of money (renegade customers) or they sell to cheapskates like myself, who may be as likely to make our own parts anyway.

I would keep your eyes open for sources of the various parts and collect them that way. (unless you want to do the renegade setup)...

That would include:

Engine bar (Scott mentioned the possibility of making these)

Radiator shroud (same as above)

Transmission adapter and flywheel (Kennedy)

Wiring Harness (Scott will modify these for a fee I believe...)

Oil Pan (can be purchased from Outback Motors)

Exhaust (no bolt together exhaust exists to my knowledge, but 2-1 pipes can be bought from Outback)

Alternator bracket (These should be coming out soon)

That should _pretty much_ do it... maybe I'm forgetting something..

-Tony

Lurker here finally posting

The Subaru motor conversions seem to fall into 2 sections, those that want a very clean install such as the Renegade conversion and those that don't mind the thrown together approach.

I don't understand the later group, you don't want to cut the front trunk, yet there is no reservation from using junkyard parts and square tubing bought from Lowes or the local Hardware store.

What good is the claim of no cutting when it looks like something out of Junkyard Wars?

Mr Srbliss, I look forward to seeing your kit

I have yet to see a picture of the renegade suby engine conversion.....You got one? I think the work Tony is doing is a hell of a long way from Junkyard wars.
Bob

QUOTE (MidEngineFun @ Nov 8 2005, 04:18 PM)

Lurker here finally posting The Subaru motor conversions seem to fall into 2 sections, those that want a very clean install such as the Renegade conversion and those that don't mind the thrown together approach. I don't understand the later group, you don't want to cut the front trunk, yet there is no reservation from using junkyard parts and square tubing bought from Lowes or the local Hardware store. What good is the claim of no cutting when it looks like something out of Junkyard Wars? Mr Srbliss, I look forward to seeing your kit

The result may look bad, but if you removed it, the tub would still be exactly as it was when you started, and could be converted back to air-cooled four usage w/o re-welding on the bits you cut out to install the radiator in the front trunk.

Also, a lot of the thrown-together jobs are really just works in progress, and you're only seeing the early stages. I've seen V8 conversions that took several years to make nice looking, but the car was drivable most of the time. This, IMHO, is much better than having a car sit on jackstands for 8 years and not get driven until it's pristine.

Until you've actually done a swap, you really have no idea just how difficult the job really is. The last 10% of the work takes 90% of the time, and it's all in the details that jump out at people when they first see the car.

QUOTE

The Subaru motor conversions seem to fall into 2 sections, those that want a very clean install such as the Renegade conversion and those that don't mind the thrown together approach.

I disagree. I think the division is not based on 'clean install' versus 'hack.' I don't believe there are many people who actually _want_ a hack job in the end. I think the division is based more on those who want to build it themselves because its a challenge, and those who have neither the time nor interest in re-inventing the wheel.

QUOTE

I don't understand the later group, you don't want to cut the front trunk, yet there is no reservation from using junkyard parts and square tubing bought from Lowes or the local Hardware store.

I call false dichotomy... Cutting up the front trunk is not looked down upon solely for the sake of purity, or cleanliness of install (assuming that is the objection). In my case I want to keep the front trunk because I really like the idea of being able to go on a long road trip and have space to store stuff. My car is not going to be a track only car, and if I have a choice of locations, I'd much rather have it in the middle of the car than intrude on my trunk space.

And what exactly is the objection to junkyard parts and square tubing from Lowe's? I don't even understand how you could do an engine swap without using a junkyard engine. There aren't a whole lot of places that you can go and buy a brand new off the shelf Subaru engine with everything you need. And if you could it would cost a fortune. And if you choose to spend money like that, you are probably not thinking of putting a 165 HP economy car engine into a 914... At least thats what I have observed.

-Tony

I don't know when I will have a "kit" ready, but it will be a nice clean install that I am proud of or I won't offer it to others. I think my car is a pretty nice car and I want it to stay that way.

I also haven't seen any "hack jobs" on this site - engine swaps take a long time to get fully sorted out (I have done a few.) I am still amazed that Scott drove his conversion across the country for a shakedown run. I for one really appreciate others showing off their work and I am amazed at what many (Tony comes to mind) can do with simple tools and hard work.

Like I said before the object for me is a minimal cut or drill setup. As an example I plan on making an transmission-engine-radiator cradle that mounts to the stock engine and trans mounts. I am fairly sure that the stock shifter can be used.

Steve

the renegade kit is all round mandrel bent tube, cnc-plasma cut gussets etc... no pics are being released because the last time we published our work it just got ripped off. be assured that no expense was spared in the research and development of this product, it is a very professional, well put together bolt in kit. no cutting or welding is required to install the cradle, tranny, engine,etc...

Can someone answer what happens to the cabin heat due to one of these conversions?

QUOTE (Marty Yeoman @ Nov 9 2005, 01:58 PM)

Can someone answer what happens to the cabin heat due to one of these conversions?

interesting question Marty...I'd think the extra heat from the radiator in the back would be noticed mostly right after the car is shut off

on a sorta related note...from the few articles I've read about the new Cayman, the heat from the engine makes the cabin warmer than in the Boxster.....

with my front mount radiator and wrx engine my cabin is actually cooler (and a lot quieter!)

QUOTE (plymouth37 @ Nov 9 2005, 11:12 AM)

the renegade kit is all round mandrel bent tube, cnc-plasma cut gussets etc... no pics are being released because the last time we published our work it just got ripped off. be assured that no expense was spared in the research and development of this product, it is a very professional, well put together bolt in kit. no cutting or welding is required to install the cradle, tranny, engine,etc...

This practice seems very odd to me. For some $3K, you expect someone to buy your kit sight-unseen? There are many in the specialty business that willingly share what it is you expect to purchase. I would think your protection from, as you say rip-off, would be product design integrity, quality, prompt delivery (customer service), and competitive pricing. A rudamentary photo would not reveal any secrets; speaking as an engineer, the secret is in the design details and their execution, and not the grand scheme. I see little reason to worry.

Andys

I wish it worked that way, but you would be amazed at how many people have taken a tour of our shop, taken photos, and then promptly went in to business. I know it is asking a lot to say "give me money, trust me it will be awesome.) but unfortunately that is how it is going to have to be. If you want to come out to vegas I would be more than happy to give you a ride in my car and show you the mount in the car and every thing. I would rather not post pics though. sorry.

QUOTE (plymouth37 @ Nov 9 2005, 03:38 PM)

I wish it worked that way, but you would be amazed at how many people have taken a tour of our shop, taken photos, and then promptly went in to business. I know it is asking a lot to say "give me money, trust me it will be awesome.) but unfortunately that is how it is going to have to be. If you want to come out to vegas I would be more than happy to give you a ride in my car and show you the mount in the car and every thing. I would rather not post pics though. sorry.

I'd have to somewhat agree on this...right now there are many people that want to do the conversion..one of the 1st things they ask is how is the motor mounted and want to see pictures....if shown pictures of a true bolt in solution, some will attempt to make it, others will print it out and give to buddy and others will figure out they don't have the means to dupe it and will either buy it, or give up on the conversion.

However, not everyone needs a visual to make an item, but you really open the door by doing so. The kit cannot remain a secret forever, someone will buy a kit and post pictures unless you have some sorta legal paper not allowing it (which won't hold up).....



The way I look at it if you want to do the conversion, at the current price of the kit, you either buy the kit knowing it'll work or fab everything up yourself to save money (and spend the time fab'ing and such).....

the sad part is, I can already see some poor soul buying the kit from Renegade, getting his car running and post about it and one of the 1st replys will be "you should have saved your money and build everything yourself like I did"

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 9 2005, 02:13 PM)

QUOTE (Marty Yeoman @ Nov 9 2005, 01:58 PM) Can someone answer what happens to the cabin heat due to one of these conversions? interesting question Marty...I'd think the extra heat from the radiator in the back would be noticed mostly right after the car is shut off on a sorta related note...from the few articles I've read about the new Cayman, the heat from the engine makes the cabin warmer than in the Boxster.....

That's kind of an answer, but what happens to footwell heat, and more importantly defroster operation?

im sure you can run a heater core and a blower upfront in the cowl

you mean cabin heat for comfort and use??

I wasn't sure if you meant the heat due to the location of the radiator ...silly me....

not sure about these suby conversions, but I've seen one conversion that had a standard heater core mounted in a box in the engine compartment...it tied into the factory ducting

I'd have to disagree.

There's presumably a reasonable market for people who wish to just buy this stuff who can't or won't make it themselves. If such a market didn't exist, there'd be little point in making the kits in the first place.

Now, if someone else comes along and copies your kit and starts to sell it, you have to beat them not with secrecy (which doesn't work for long), but with good support, good craftsmanship, and GOOD MARKETING. If you have good marketing, you'll even beat a guy that's undercutting your price significantly. How many people buy Coke or Pepsi instead of the cheaper store-brand cola? Indeed, really good marketing usually trumps even good support and good craftsmanship, at least for awhile. Ever tasted Red Bull? The stuff is crap, but they sell it for $2 a can, and have so much money to throw around they now own TWO Formula One teams. That's 100% good marketing.

Marketing is hard, and it's a part of the business that most businesses get wrong. You guys are doing something right, because if you ask any 914 owner "where can I get a V8 kit", the answer 90% of the time will be "Renegade Hybrids". That kind of brand recognition takes awhile to build up, and once it's in place, it's hard for competitors to work around.

However, once a brand is damaged, it's hard for that brand to recover. Your secrecy is, IMHO, damaging to you. Hiding it from view prevents people who might not buy it, but may recommend it to others, from doing that. I certainly wouldn't buy something that pricey and that hard to ship back w/o seeing it first.

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 9 2005, 04:23 PM)

I've seen one conversion that had a standard heater core mounted in a box in the engine compartment...it tied into the factory ducting

That's what I thought you'd have to do to retain operation.
It seems like a step nobody talks about.
Would a heat exchanger similar to stock 914 design be practical?
It seems to me that you'd be frabricating a custom exhaust system anyway.

I wish I had pictures to point at!!!

QUOTE (Marty Yeoman @ Nov 9 2005, 04:32 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 9 2005, 04:23 PM) I've seen one conversion that had a standard heater core mounted in a box in the engine compartment...it tied into the factory ducting That's what I thought you'd have to do to retain operation. It seems like a step nobody talks about. Would a heat exchanger similar to stock 914 design be practical? It seems to me that you'd be frabricating a custom exhaust system anyway. I wish I had pictures to point at!!!

water filled heat exchanger...basicly the same heater core in your pickup trunk under the dash.........

QUOTE (Marty Yeoman @ Nov 9 2005, 03:32 PM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 9 2005, 04:23 PM) I've seen one conversion that had a standard heater core mounted in a box in the engine compartment...it tied into the factory ducting That's what I thought you'd have to do to retain operation. It seems like a step nobody talks about. Would a heat exchanger similar to stock 914 design be practical? It seems to me that you'd be frabricating a custom exhaust system anyway. I wish I had pictures to point at!!!

No need to do this. A heater core is cheap and can be plumbed into the cooling system and mounted nearly anywhere. You can mount it low in the engine bay and have a box and fan around it that hot air into the stock heater ducting. Or, you can mount it inside the fresh air box in the front trunk area and have it just blow onto the windscreen. The stock heater control can open and close a valve to run coolant through this heater core or not, just like a normal water-cooled heater setup.

An exhaust heat-exchanger requires you to either make your exhaust out of stainless, or make it out of really thick (and heavy) material, or replace it regularly to keep from getting exhaust into the cabin. You're also needlessly complicating maintenance later when you have to remove the exhaust.

I think no one has talked about a heating solution because its the last thing to worry about for most.

I know I've thought about it, mostly because I want my wife to ride with me in the car at some point.

My plan is to actually use two small heater cores and two blowers. One for each longitudinal tube, and then up front have independent controls for the blower motors. That way you get climate control zones

Doing the exhaust heat exchanger idea is certainly doable but probably a LOT more complex. It seems like something to avoid if you can, for reasons of complexity, reliability, and the risk of poisoning yourself.

-Tony

more pic's :

heater for V6 conversion

Thanks Mike.
Pictures tell the story best.
The conversion heaters are what I would think are most appropriate.
Just thought I'd ask.

Using exhaust gas as a source for heat is a horrible idea, not only because leaks bring poisonous fumes into the cabin, but also because gasses carry very, very little heat; water OTOH, can carry a huge amount. (If you want to cool a red-hot horseshoe, would you wave it around in the air, or dunk it in a barrel of water ?) The only reason to go with an exhaust heat exchanger is if there isn't any hot water available; i.e., air cooled engines.

I think the heater core idea is a good way to go. The core is just a smallish version of a conventional car radiator; a fan blows air over it to heat the cabin. The easy way is to keep it in the rear and use the stock hot air tubes in the chassis. Some heat is bound to be lost from the air going through the tubes, but it would still be way warmer than a "real" 914. Tony's idea of using two cores and two fans (comfort zones) would make for a seriously warm car. I can just imagine driving with the top off on a cold night w/ the heat cranked up...

BTW, I think I reacall Scott Thatcher saying that the heater core circuit on the EJ25 has to be connected in order for the coolant thermostat to function properly. But I (or he) may just be on crack.

About the kits question (wan't that what this thread was about ?) I think there's room for all sorts of approaches. I definitely wouldn't buy from Renegade (or anyone else), 'cause for me the whole point of doing a conversion is to figure stuff out myself and I get a huge satisfaction from being a CSOB. (It's a great feeling to look over at a (used) Hyundai and say to myself : "How can someone spend that much on a car ?") Others shudder at the thought of using untried, homebrew pieces on something as critical as the drive train, cooling system, ECU, etc. and want a super-refined look. No problem. One of the things I love about the 914 is the range of possibilities. At the RRC I saw cars w/ exhaust pipes that cost more than my whole car. At the end of the day, I think everyone had a blast in their own way and there wasn't any snobbery or competition.

The concept shown in the V6 conversion photos is nice, but the location shown may conflict with engine parts specific to your conversion. My V8 conversion will not allow the driver's fan as shown because of the remote water pump, the passenger side has room. If one were to add the AC option from Renegade, the compressor fills in the space on the passenger side.

The heat solution that is sold by Renegade, compatable with all of their watercooled 914 conversions (and others), replaces the fresh air box with a heater unit that pulls air from the footwell area only and is directable by the factory dash controls to the footwell vents or dashvents and defrosters (or mixed). A multi speed fan is operated with the top dash control, like stock. The flow to the heater core is controlled by the stock heater lever between the seats. The factory fresh air capabilities are removed with this kit. My car has sufficient heat, and the defrost capabilites are adequate.

My plans in the future involve separate heater cores in the back, feeding the stock system through the longs, but I want to figure a solution that will not interfere with the AC kit, another future project. I would also like to restore the stock fresh air box and all of it's features. When that happens, I'll have an used RH heat system available for purchase. But for now, I'm good to go...

As for Suby conversions, the engine compartment radiator option would conflict with the V6 style heater cores, the RH kit could still work. The available answers become more obvious when you're looking at the space left after your specific drivetrain is installed. Ahh, it takes a special type of person to own a custom car...

Eric

You can use a under dash AC evaperator /Heater with ducted defrost like this.


These sell for right at $200. If you want AC all you have to do is buy the complete kit for $450.

Do a search for Econo cooler.............

Bob

Actually, even with the radiator in the engine bay, there's still plenty of room....

This picture is from mySubaru conversion thread ...

Don't mind the banged up radiator, thats just there for fitting.

why couldn't you just use some bleed air off of the big radiator....???

QUOTE

Using exhaust gas as a source for heat is a horrible idea, not only because leaks bring poisonous fumes into the cabin, but also because gasses carry very, very little heat;

What are you talking about ...its been working effectivley in my stock teener for more than THIRTY YEARS!
And Im pretty sure no one has been poisened to death including me.

QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Nov 9 2005, 05:44 PM)

QUOTE Using exhaust gas as a source for heat is a horrible idea, not only because leaks bring poisonous fumes into the cabin, but also because gasses carry very, very little heat; What are you talking about ...its been working effectivley in my stock teener for more than THIRTY YEARS! And Im pretty sure no one has been poisened to death including me.

Every Porsche and VW on the planet, until recently, has used this system effectively and reliably. The beauty of the exhaust heater system, is that they heat up very quickly. As for your theromdynamics, don't forget that the heat source is much hotter than anything that comes from engine coolant, so losses realized through the system are inconsequencial.

Andys

QUOTE (plymouth37 @ Nov 9 2005, 02:38 PM)

I wish it worked that way, but you would be amazed at how many people have taken a tour of our shop, taken photos, and then promptly went in to business. I know it is asking a lot to say "give me money, trust me it will be awesome.) but unfortunately that is how it is going to have to be. If you want to come out to vegas I would be more than happy to give you a ride in my car and show you the mount in the car and every thing. I would rather not post pics though. sorry.

Can you site an example? I personally can't think of any Rennegade copycat products, but perhaps there are.

I am myself a business owner, and sell/distribute products which I consider unique to our particular industry. Though we don't disclose materials or processing/manufacturing information, anyone could improve on them or simply copy them, but that's business/competition. Again, it comes down to product design, product quality, customer service, and price....And as someone mentioned, marketing (We actually took steps to conform to much higher FDA requirements as an edge to marketing/promotion).

BTW, I saw your car at the GAF. The packaging of the Subie ends up being quite tidy. Promote your engineering, design, reliability, and service....the DIY'ers will do their own thing regardless.

Andys

Here's Jon's super secret Suby mount ala TC Design. Don't call him though because another weld-in mount makes it "un-marketable"...

I'm not going to copy anyones design (I already asked Scott if was OK to use what I believe to be his idea) for my proposed kit. For one it's just wrong, and besides the market is tiny I can't imagine selling any more than 10 kits - even if it is perfect and reasonably priced. I think I mentioned before that I don't really think I will make any money doing this, I hope to learn something (selling) and have some fun doing stuff I enjoy doing.

QUOTE

I wish it worked that way, but you would be amazed at how many people have taken a tour of our shop, taken photos, and then promptly went in to business. I know it is asking a lot to say "give me money, trust me it will be awesome.) but unfortunately that is how it is going to have to be. If you want to come out to vegas I would be more than happy to give you a ride in my car and show you the mount in the car and every thing. I would rather not post pics though. sorry.

Does this mean that if I were to buy your kit, you guys would have to install it or would I be able to order and install it at home? I understand that you dont want to get ripped off but before Im willing to drop 2000 dollars on something I definately want to see it first. Since I wont be going to Las Vegas till at earliest late next summer, the only time I may even see this is if you go to WCC next year in portland. Also what is to stop people from buying your kit then coping it that way?

Srbliss......If your kit is less than renegade's kit, you can count me in. Will you be making the radiator brackets, and everything with full install instructions?

It seems to me that the obvious choice for a higher HP motor would be a stand-alone engine management system a la TEC3, or something like that. No dealing with the Suby ECU and Harness and near infinite tunability to boot.

For the extra that it costs I think that it is totally the way to go. Less hastle, better performance.

Heat was one of the first things I though about with my conversion... I didn't like when I had to ride with a credit card in one hand driving the ghia in the winter to scrap the breath frost from the windshield.

Summit has 4 or 5 different heater cores/blowers, all for less than $200. I bought the cheapest one(made by Southern Hot Rods), mounted it under the trunk just behind the starter. Duct(from McMaster) to the stock inlets at the firewall, heat is good but the cheapest heater does have a cheap blower. I'd recommend getting the Summit brand, more btu, 3 speed blower.

I have the heat working(and the amp/subwoofer for that matter) but still have error codes to fake, you can see where my priorities are. And yes, the heater circuit has to be hooked up, either with a heater core or bypass loop, for the cooling system to work.

Evan

QUOTE (andys @ Nov 9 2005, 08:24 PM)

QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Nov 9 2005, 05:44 PM) QUOTE Using exhaust gas as a source for heat is a horrible idea, not only because leaks bring poisonous fumes into the cabin, but also because gasses carry very, very little heat; What are you talking about ...its been working effectivley in my stock teener for more than THIRTY YEARS! And Im pretty sure no one has been poisened to death including me. Every Porsche and VW on the planet, until recently, has used this system effectively and reliably. The beauty of the exhaust heater system, is that they heat up very quickly. As for your theromdynamics, don't forget that the heat source is much hotter than anything that comes from engine coolant, so losses realized through the system are inconsequencial. Andys

Okay, didn't mean to start a flame war. When I said using air was a horrible idea, I meant given the choice between water and air, which is the case for a Suby conversion.

Also, I guess I should have searched the archives before posting; I didn't realize that the stock 914 heat system was so widely and passionately praised for its effectiveness....