Still won't start., Running out of ideas. Options

[swl]

Well it's been fun, I've learned a lot. But I have diddly to show for my efforts. It may be time admit defeat and to send this puppy down to Mark or Mike.

This is a 1.7 that has been sitting for 20 years. We've rebuilt the fuel system including a commercial cleaning of the injectors. She's getting gas on all 4 cylinders - checked by squirting into jars. Fuel pressure 40psi on steady crank. Even tried some cold start spray (sorry Cap'n - it was just a little bit and I was getting desparate).

We have spark on all 4. I'm too green to tell a good spark from a weak spark but it is at least hot enough to jump the gap.

Static timing has been set.

Mike suggested that the rings might be stuck in the pistons but I just put a compression checker on and I'm getting about 105 on the two cylinders I checked. That's gotta be enough to start it right? BTW that 105 was max swing on the needle - not the steady state between the pulses.

So I have fuel, air, spark, timing and compression. What else do I need? If it were way lean the spray should have fired it off. Perhaps too much gas and flooding?

On one past thread an old hand suggested it was stupid to try to start this engine without tearing it down but that seems a bit of a daunting task for me - my experience level goes to a clutch change but nothing more complicated than that. I also don't know what it would accomplish - other than clean up any rust or debris that might scratch the cylinder walls.

Anybody got a silver bullet for me?

[Dr. Roger]

even with crappy compression and an ether vapor boost, spark under compression may not spark. You'll get nada'.

If it were me i'd double check point gap and blow the few extra bucks on fresh plugs, points, cap , rotor, and wires and try it one more time. if you dont have points replace what you can... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

with all that fuel and crap in there, even fresh plugs can get grounded out fairly quickly.

speaking from lots of 2 stroke experience....

edit: i'm surprised you can crank it over if it's been really sitting for 20 years..... if you can, fer sure load the cylinder walls with some sort of oil as best you can if you haven't already.

This post has been edited by rogergrubb: Nov 13 2005, 05:56 PM

[Dr Evil]

Some things to consider: the fuel pressure is supposed to be at 29psi, not 40psi. If it is 40psi it wont work. Exhaust? I had a similar problem that subsided after I set the fuel pressure and an exhaust system occlusion was purged from my exhaust system (flaming rag came flying out of my tail pipe after some failed attempts at starting (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) )

These cars are often victims of compound problems, thus you have to find and fix everything that you can leaving no reasonable items unchecked because several little things equal one larger one.

I don't believe that an engien teardown is your destiny as there are too many unanswered questions.
Did you check:
- MPS
- Dizzy 180 out
- injector pluggs on wrong injectors
- Ground straps

[swl]

Unfortunately Roger it's pretty much done, done and done. New plugs, cap, rotors and wires. They were actually done a few years back when my first son turned 16 he lost interest pretty quick so the car went back into hiding. My approach is that if they want to drive it they gotta work on it. Youngest is willing to do that so we are making progress. I'm actually not sure about the points but I probably would have done that. They look good - no pit.

Yes we did oil the cylinders through the spark plug hole before we started turning it over. Of course you can't get perfect coverage that way but it is better than dry.

QUOTE

even with crappy compression and an ether vapor boost, spark under compression may not spark

So if I follow you right I should approach it from the point of view of a weak spark and see what I can do to heat it up.

[swl]

QUOTE (Dr Evil @ Nov 13 2005, 04:13 PM)

an exhaust system occlusion was purged from my exhaust system (flaming rag came flying out of my tail pipe after some failed attempts at starting (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) )

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif)

Love it!

MPS. Checked with a meter. Actually had a broken lead that had to be replaced. So electrically it's all good.

Dizzy has been checked (again I had buggered it up). I haven't taken the rocker covers off to see if the dizzy drive may be in backwards but that is a pretty long shot. This thing was running great went I put it away.

Injector plugs. Just went out and checked and they are good. Pretty hard to get them mixed up.

ground strap. Looks like I replaced it sometime back. Don't remember that - but then again I have trouble remembering what I had for breakfast. It is not the original mesh. Battery grade round cable. Might be worth taking it off and cleaning it up but the engine is turning over reasonablly well - at least the starter is getting good juice.

I'll dial down the fuel pressure and see what happens. I suppose that could be flooding the engine.

[Howard]

Have you cranked it with the plugs out? That will sometimes blow out the old nasties.

Even with everything assbackward, you should still get something to fire once in a while. Anything?

[swl]

we did a lot of cranking with the plugs out to get it lubricated before trying a hot start so anything that would come out should be out now.

Absolutely nothing - not a pop, cough or wheeze. The only thing we have gotten out of it was a backfire when the diz was improperly seated and we were spraying it with ether.

[Dr. Roger]

all i kow is if your spraying ether down the intake while turning it over, you've got no spark.

what's your point gap?
new coil? they do eventually go bad... borrow a known good one to check.

[swl]

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Nov 13 2005, 05:38 PM)

all i kow is if your spraying ether down the intake while turning it over, you've got no spark.

perhaps to much ether and you don't get enough air to burn it. Sorta makes sense.

Haven't checked the points gap yet. I'll put it on the list.

Original coil so perhaps it is getting weak. Longhorn - you got your ears on?

[swl]

got back at her today. main goal was to just turn down the fuel pressure. When I started to work on it thought the pressure was all over the place. It would run at 34, then would make wierd noises an run up to 40 for a few seconds and then drop back down. What really had me concerned is that there was a lot of air in the system from time to time. Where the heck is that coming from? Maybe scavanging in the tank? Not enough fuel in the tank - that would be embarassing. I've got about 4 gallons in there so I figured that was lots.

Other possibility is that pop off valve in the fuel pump. This is a used pump whose state was unknown. To test that I tried opening the pressure relief valve on the fuel pressure gauge and squirt into a jug. The pressure dropped off immediately, flow went to a trickle. Closed the valve and the pressure stayed down for a very long time before it slowly came back.

At least now I have some 'symptoms' to work with. I'll try putting some more fuel in then put the regulator through its range of motion and retry setting the pressure.

Wait a minute - maybe the regulator is the source of air? hmm ....

[Dr Evil]

Regulator limits pressure from exceeding the set level, the pump brings it to that level. Thus, so long as the pressure is getting up to 29psi, you can figure that the regulator is the most likely faulty component. Air should not be able to find its way into the system. Both send and return lines in the tank are in the bottom and I would figure that 4gal would be sufficient to keep them wet. Are your fuel pump hoses hooked up correctly? Do you have the three hose model? Is your regulator plumbed the correct way? Perhaps a pic of the regulator installed will help us with that one.

[Mark Henry]

Let me digest this post...this after a bottle of wine with my next door buddy (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

If you have spark, a shot of gas down the TB should have given you a quick fire....you sure you have spark right?

Wine goes right to my head...I'm such a cheap drunk (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/drunk.gif)

[Mark Henry]

They always have air bubbles in the line...don't freak over that one.

Take the air cleaner off and squirt around 20ml gas down the TB and crank her over quick...if it has spark it should fire.

Next remove the injectors and with a pin press on the pintle and see if you can feel a little click.

[McMark]

Sounds to me like the firing order is backwards or the dizzy is not seated all the way (i.e. not turning). Easy check number one. Pull of the distributor cap and remember, take a picture, or make a drawing of where the rotor is pointing. Bump the starter and see if the rotor has moved. Now double check by grabbing the rotor and trying to turn it around by hand. Nice and tight? Doesn't turn? Good. Next I would switch the plug wires in an X pattern on the cap. Pull out #1 and swap it with #3, pull out #2 and swap it with #4. Try and start it.

[Mark Henry]

Ya...what he said.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[SirAndy]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/thisthreadisworthlesswithoutpics.gif)

[swl]

QUOTE

Wine goes right to my head...I'm such a cheap drunk

Hope your wife doesn't take advantage of that. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) - it was a great day for a bottle of wine and friends on the patio. Unfortunately my honey do list was a little long to kick back. Also didn't allow much time on the car.

QUOTE

If you have spark, a shot of gas down the TB should have given you a quick fire

thats the theory alright. I haven't put raw gas down the TB but the plugs come out smelling of gas and feeling a little damp so I think we have something in there. The work with the regulator was under the possibility that I was flooding it with that much pressure. I also did the bit with cranking the engine with the injectors out in jars back a while. They squirt. (had them cleaned up in Belleville). can also hear them clicking when I push the throttle.

QUOTE

you sure you have spark right?

Well I did at one time but I've been mucking around so much I really should check again. I can't say whether or not it is a strong one. Don't have anything to compare it to.

I did have the dizzy mucked up but I fixed that a while back. Firing order has been checked. It does go clockwise right? Also did the x pattern at the suggestion of Carlitos Way.

Dr Evil. The regulator has not been out of the car since it last ran. I have fuel pumping - just not behaving quite the way I'd expect. The adjustment was screwed right into the body - all the way. I've backed it off and brought the pressure down to about 30psi. I didn't feel comfortable backing it off much farther - not sure if there is a stop. Also threw in a bit more gas. Between the pressure and more gas the flow is much smoother now but not nice and steady. I haven't tried a start again - I want to work through things methodically before I have another go.

I'm back to my day job tomorrow so I likely won't get much done until next weekend. I'll report back when I give her another shot.

Sir Andy - what sort of picture were you thinking about - me going (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif) ?

Here's one of the dizzy drive shaft when I put it back in - TDC rotor pointing to #1.

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 20 2005, 06:38 PM)

Here's one of the dizzy drive shaft when I put it back in - TDC rotor pointing to #1.

assuming you took that pic from the pass. side, then it looks OK ...

but, you should really clean all that shit from the top of your motor.
if this is any indication for what it'll look like under the cooling(!) tin, if you ever get the motor to run, you'll probably kill it due to overheating within a week ...

that "stuff" tends to accumulate on top of your cylinder cooling fins and oil-cooler ...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif) Andy

[SLITS]

Just went through this on an engine change. Had fuel (steady) and spark....couldn't even get a bang or a backfire.

Brought engine to TDC #1(at least thought I was) and figured that the distributor was 180 out. Pulled plug wires and advanced them 180 on the dizzy cap. Turned engine over and got singed by flames outta the TB.

Retarded wires 90 and the engine fired right up and has started every time since then.

[swl]

I hear you Sir! Not only will there be shit in there but also a lost spark plug. That is on my winter to do list. Drop the engine. Take off the tin and clean out the engine. I've got a bunch of rustoration to go at too and it will be easier without the engine in the way. We really want to hear this thing at least cough before we drop it just to be sure we still have a viable engine. Working on a very restricted budget and would have to give up if there was major engine work to be done.