Still won't start., Running out of ideas. Options

[blabla914]

So the plugs are wet and cold.
You put oil in the cylinders.
You've been cranking it a LOT with a functioning fuel system and high fuel pressure.
You've also been putting a fair amount of ether in there and it still does nothing?
You've definately got a spark issue.
Try making sure the plugs are clean before trying to start the motor. I've had cases where the combination of all that fuel on the plugs and all that junk in the cylinders will put the flame right out.
Clean the plugs with brake clean and blow out with compressed air or just let them sit on the bench till they are dry.
If everything else is in order this might fix it.

Kelly

[r_towle]

its an ignition problem...

It was done by your son over a year ago......

You need to confirm that the points and condensor are good...clean...and set properly.

Be methodical and go through a full tune up.

Make sure you are working with good parts and they are properly set up...point gap is set correctly.

Plug gap is set.

If the motor turns by hand...it will start.

Rich

[Gint]

QUOTE (r_towle @ Nov 20 2005, 07:32 PM)

its an ignition problem... It was done by your son over a year ago...... You need to confirm that the points and condensor are good...clean...and set properly. Be methodical and go through a full tune up. Make sure you are working with good parts and they are properly set up...point gap is set correctly. Plug gap is set. If the motor turns by hand...it will start. Rich

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

Forget everything you think you know or how it was setup before. Verify the motor is on #1 on TDC, verify that the dizzy isoriemted properly, verify the spark plug order on the cap, etc... all from the book and not from memory or how it was set before.

Cylinder #1 Driver-side Rear Rotor at 12 o'clock
Cylinder #2 Driver-side Front Rotor at 9 o'clock
Cylinder #3 Passenger Side Rear Rotor at 6 o'clock
Cylinder #4 Passenger Side Front Rotor at 3 o'clock

[Dr. Roger]

QUOTE (Gint @ Nov 20 2005, 09:29 PM)

QUOTE (r_towle @ Nov 20 2005, 07:32 PM) its an ignition problem... It was done by your son over a year ago...... You need to confirm that the points and condensor are good...clean...and set properly. Be methodical and go through a full tune up. Make sure you are working with good parts and they are properly set up...point gap is set correctly. Plug gap is set. If the motor turns by hand...it will start. Rich (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) Forget everything you think you know or how it was setup before. Verify the motor is on #1 on TDC, verify that the dizzy isoriemted properly, verify the spark plug order on the cap, etc... all from the book and not from memory or how it was set before. Cylinder #1 Driver-side Rear Rotor at 12 o'clock Cylinder #2 Driver-side Front Rotor at 9 o'clock Cylinder #3 Passenger Side Rear Rotor at 6 o'clock Cylinder #4 Passenger Side Front Rotor at 3 o'clock

dude,
you can follow how most porsche owners do this or you not. it actually does not matter where the rotor points at a particular time as long as the plug wires are connected to the right cylinders at a particular time.

i just finished building a brand new motor and here's how i figured out where #1 was on the dizzy.
first: grounded the coil wire.

then i pulled the #1 plug and put my finger over the hole where the spark plug was while carefully turning it over.

as soon as i could feel the air rushing out i knew it was coming up on the compression stroke and quickly let off the ignition switch. now the #1 cylinder was just past TDC (top dead center) and technically now just starting the power stroke. this is the time when the spark needs to fire.

the rotor in my distributor was point towards a particular post on the cap and there is where i ran my #1 plug wire from.

then just worked my way around the distributor using the correct firing order and distributor rotation for the rest of the cylinders/plugs.

if you do it this way it will get you close enough to start it but have a timing light for a quick timing adjustment just after starting.

"le repos est histoire".... =-)


oh and hurry up. we want to hear it and see pics. =-)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)
Roger

This post has been edited by rogergrubb: Nov 20 2005, 11:39 PM

[McMark]

It's amazing how far that "the rotor points to the physical #1 cylinder" stuff goes. It only applies to certain engines. I've ignored it from the beginning so I don't even know what engines it applies to. SBC? SBF? But Roger is correct. The orientation doesn't really matter as long as spark plug #1 is firing at cylinder #1 TDC (or thereabouts).

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 20 2005, 09:38 PM)

QUOTE Wine goes right to my head...I'm such a cheap drunk Hope your wife doesn't take advantage of that. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif) Oh...jeeze...your right....I better check my wallet.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Gint]

QUOTE (McMark @ Nov 20 2005, 10:44 PM)

It's amazing how far that "the rotor points to the physical #1 cylinder" stuff goes.  It only applies to certain engines.  I've ignored it from the beginning so I don't even know what engines it applies to.  SBC? SBF?  But Roger is correct.  The orientation doesn't really matter as long as spark plug #1 is firing at cylinder #1 TDC (or thereabouts).

I forgot to add the prerequisite 15 disclaimers. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) I only posted that table to keep it simple. In retrospect I wish I hadn't. It was a straight copy and paste from Pelican. I really don't like it myself. The picture however is excellent. The fact of the matter is, we're talking about a 914. Not a small block Chevy or Ford or anything else. The rotor pointing to #1 cap tower when the engine is at #1 TDC applies to every 914, four cylinder or six.




There are a couple of concepts you need to know. They apply to VW Type IV motors as installed in 914's and are fact.

1.
Every factory Type IV motor in a 914 turns over twice for every one revolution of the distributor.

2.
IF the motor is on #1 TDC, the rotor WILL be pointing to the distributor cap tower that the #1 spark plug wire needs to be connected to. From there is a simple matter of following the firing order counter clockwise on the cap to install the plug wires as listed in the cylinder layout picture that I posted previously and again at the bottom of this post.

3.
As long as your motor and distributor are stock AND have not been "enhanced" by some PO, and the distributor drive assembly in the case is stock and correct, it is physically impossible to install a stock Type IV dizzy in the motor incorrectly. The drive dog on the bottom of the dizzy and the corresponding slot in distributor drive gear in the case are offset such that the dizzy will only go in one way. No 180 degree out stuff applies. It is impossible. You can install the wires 180 degrees out, or 90 degrees etc..., but you cannot install the dizzy 180 out.




Read these two articles from Pelican and understand them. They really do explain the processes quite well.

Pelican Technical Article: 914 Timing and Dwell Adjustment

Pelican Pelican Technical Article: 914 Valve Adjustment Made Easy



This may not help Steve right now, but for newbies, lurkers or those otherwise inetersted...

When I first aquire a 914, I like to do a valve adjustment and tune-up. At this time I pull the valve covers and use the valves and the distributor rotor location to determine #1 TDC. Then I find the notch in the flywheel via the hole in the top of the transaxle as described in the Pelican article. Then I mark the bottom of the flywheel. From this point on, if you understand evrything here and what's in the Pelican articles, you can easily tell if the motor is on TDC by just pulling the distributor cap and verifying the rotor is pointing the cap tower for #1 cylinder. Form here on out, valve adjustments, tune-ups, troubleshooting is easy.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)


(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2-1132547378.jpg)

[McMark]

I assume since you quoted me you're talking to me. I agree with this:

QUOTE

The rotor pointing to #1 cap tower when the engine is at #1 TDC applies to every 914, four cylinder or six.

I was talking about the idea that your rotor should point at the #1 SPARK PLUG at TDC, which is false (unless your dizzy drive is put in wrong). As in, pointing in the 10 o'clock direction (viewing the dizzy from the top). Technically, the rotor should be pointing at the impeller inspection hole at #1 TDC. Sorry for the confusion.

[swl]

gint. Well written. Great logic. This whole trip was based on a suggestion that an engine rebuilder could install the drive cog in a position other than factory. Remember that his car was running fine when it was parked long ago. If I hadn't removed the distributor I would not have suspected anything in the ignition.

McMark. I didn't communicate that well. I didn't mean the plug itself but where the #1 wire plugs into the cap. Exactly as you describe in your clarification.

So I'm not one who normally goes sticking his finger in dark holes. That normally causes problems not solves them (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) But to lay this whole issue to rest I did RogerGrubs thing with feeling for the compression. Instead of trying to stop the engine though I just took the cap off and watched the rotor. The engine is at factory spec with # 1 coming to TDC compression with the rotor pointing toward the impeller hole. BTW I've devised an even slicker way of doing that check. Pull #1 plug (any plug really) and do the standard spark check. You can hear when you are compressing the cylinder with the plug out - less resistance on the starter. Right about then you should see your spark. Two tests in one (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

Now that is out of the way I go back to really two possibilities. The spark is too weak or the mixture is way out of whack.

I've dropped the fuel pressure down and tossed in another couple of gallons of gas. The pump is running a little more smoothly with less air in the system. I still don't like it but it is probably good enough for now.

I don't have the experiance to grade the quality of the spark but I wouldn't call the spark I saw 'bright'. Not only that but it was not consistant. Weak, strong, this side of the anode, that side of the anode. My gut says I problably would know it if I were looking at a good spark. I may pull a plug out of the Santa Fe tomorrow to look at a know good spark. Son is out with it tonight so I can't do it now.

Got the battery on charge to get it back up to snuff. Everything is back together and ready for another go. This time I'll jump it to try to get a better spark.

[Dr. Roger]

while that battery is charging i'd get some fresh plugs and emery board those points and re-gap.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

[McMark]

Has anyone mentioned a bad coil?

[Dr. Roger]

QUOTE (McMark @ Nov 22 2005, 10:02 PM)

Has anyone mentioned a bad coil?

yep. =-)

suggested he borrow a known good one. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

[bd1308]

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Nov 22 2005, 09:15 PM)

while that battery is charging i'd get some fresh plugs and emery board those points and re-gap. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

what emory board do you use?

the paper ones dont do jack....

the special platnium iridium emory board costs more than a box of doughnuts....

b

[swl]

plugs are new. I'll shine up the points - could have a little crud build up from the years - we get a lot of sulpher in the air here. I also don't like the wire set I have so I think Santa will bring me a Clewett set.

Bad Coil? Dunno about that. Isn't it pretty much all or nothing? It is just a transformer with windings - how could it get weak? Oh well - add it to your list Santa. and maybe electronic points - or an MDS system. Yeah Santa go for it!

Speaking of Santa, temp crashed last night to -8C (bout 16F). Forecast is for 2-3 inches of snow tonight. No playing for a while.

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 22 2005, 10:43 PM)

I may pull a plug out of the Santa Fe tomorrow to look at a know good spark.

Some of the newer car coil packs don't like this test...make sure you ground that plug well.

If all else fails send it to Mike (I'm too busy) he can swap parts out and if she's going to run he'll have her fired up in a couple of hours. In the long run cheaper than a lot of nice new parts, that may still not solve your problems.

[Gint]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

Those are some wise words. Right now 2 hours of shop time with a professional will solve your problem. Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

[Jeffs9146]

QUOTE

Has anyone mentioned a bad coil?

I had a problem like this with a truck once. I did an OHM test on the NEW plug wires and the coil wire, low and behold the coil wire and 2 plug wires were no good.

I just thought I would share!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

[swl]

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 23 2005, 05:17 AM)

If all else fails send it to Mike (I'm too busy) he can swap parts out and if she's going to run he'll have her fired up in a couple of hours. In the long run cheaper than a lot of nice new parts, that may still not solve your problems.

yup. Like I said at the start -

QUOTE

It may be time admit defeat and to send this puppy down to Mark or Mike.

This last gasp has been fun though. Learned some stuff - always good.

I've been talking to Mike about getting him to do the welding and wanted to send the car to him fully stripped so he can focus on the task at hand (longs and floor). I had hoped to have the engine out of his way. But if she has to go down with the engine in - so be it.

Thanks to all who participated - been a good discussion.

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (swl @ Nov 23 2005, 08:42 PM)

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 23 2005, 05:17 AM) If all else fails send it to Mike (I'm too busy) he can swap parts out and if she's going to run he'll have her fired up in a couple of hours. In the long run cheaper than a lot of nice new parts, that may still not solve your problems. yup. Like I said at the start - QUOTE It may be time admit defeat and to send this puppy down to Mark or Mike. This last gasp has been fun though. Learned some stuff - always good. I've been talking to Mike about getting him to do the welding and wanted to send the car to him fully stripped so he can focus on the task at hand (longs and floor). I had hoped to have the engine out of his way. But if she has to go down with the engine in - so be it. Thanks to all who participated - been a good discussion.

Get Mike to fire her up first.

If there is a problem that needs my attention I would have to pencil you in soon. A good 75%+ of my winter is already booked. I'm already turning away work.

That's if you need it by spring of course. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)