The $5,000 Type IV?, What would it look like? Options

[horizontally-opposed]

So I can't (and won't) argue with Jake's policies or pricing. Hell, I helped publicize his acheivements and remain very impressed by them. So let's NOT DEBATE THEM here -- please take that to another thread.

In the meantime, though, I think $5,000 (carbs and ignition included?) seems a far more approachable number for a lot of people. I wouldn't expect to get anything but short-lived junk for $1,300 to $2,600 -- unless I was building it myself.

So what are the possibilities at $5,000 to maybe $6,000? What kind of power, what kind of longevity? Could 120 or 130 hp be so hard to get with decent longevity?

I ask it more as theory and as a business opportunity/service someone could provide the community with -- someone who is well-known as a good engine builder. The 2.0-liter (based on a 1.7) in my 1973 914 has not left the chassis since at least 1986 -- it ain't got much power, but it was obviously built right.

Rather than specific answers, I am hoping to open up a direction of travel for Type IV owners on a real-world budget and (hopefully) a resource to fit that niche.

Or am I alone?

(running for cover)

pete

[Flat VW]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

[scotty b]

QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 29 2005, 05:10 PM)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

Holy crap. I've got butter rushing through my veins already. How much more popcorn can I eat? I'm crapping cobbs now, no poo just solid corn cobbs (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

[MattR]

2316 type 4

Under 5 grand. I know you dont want specific answers, but you're paying for jake's time. Its worth a lot. Buy one of his kits, which should be good for 170 hp 165 ft lbs (according to his site), and you're set.

[JoeSharp]

I have a 2056 that I have over 5K in and its still D-Jet. I spent a lot of time in the porting. Balancing the pistons and end balancing the rods. Rimco did all the machine work. If you can't do all of that stuff 5K is not enough.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe

[gregrobbins]

Here is my two cents for a street motor with a little extra kick.

Start with a 2.0L motor. Clean up the heads. To keep costs down, build a 2056, add a cam, and keep it fuel injected using MegaSquirt or something similar. Heat is a concern, so add an oil cooler and tuna can.

Should be about $2500 to $3000 in parts and machine work, and I have heard of VW mechanics who will build motors or $750 to $1000. Figure a little more for someone who knows the Type IV.

Race engine? NO
Last 100000 miles? Probably not.
Better than stock, especially 30 year old stock? Sure (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Its pretty much impossible to do... Especially in turn key form with any time at all spent on assembly.

The parts to build the engine correctly will generally cost 5K.

The going rate for a STOCK rebuild at any Porsche shop has been more than 5K since about the year 2,000

To do any engine for 5K thats more than a 2056 would pretty much demand half assed assembly and shoddy attention to detail... There are plenty of those possibilities out there if you want something thats built by someone who is more than likely an illegal alien working for less than minimum wage...

Sorry- just the facts.

More and more individuals are buying my kits and having a local builder ssemble it for 1/2 my labor charges or less..... I have even been selling kits to my competitors because it makes their assemblies go faster and that makes them money!

If it was the old days and you could get employees that weren't hoked on drugs, didn't steal from you and didn't think they should make MORE money than the owner does it may be possible to build cheaper engines for less money- not in 2005, not in todays world!

[billswim]

5 grand including carbs and ign might be a little optimistic to get anything reliable. That said 5K does go a long way not including install, set-up etc. My builder builds really good motors that last and WIN races. The motor in our race car is ten years old! There are too many combinations to list and evaluate and while Jake may know his stuff, most people don't need to spend 11K-19K on a motor for a 5 thousand dollar car. For 5K a whole lot can be done and the stock FI is pretty good up to about 25% more output than stock.

PM me for specific details about building a motor.

[TROJANMAN]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 29 2005, 05:33 PM)

There are plenty of those possibilities out there if you want something thats built by someone who is more than likely an illegal alien working for less than minimum wage...

i think we call them undocumented workers now since we found out that they are from the planet earth. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

[Jake Raby]

QUOTE (billswim @ Nov 29 2005, 05:35 PM)

while Jake may know his stuff, most people don't need to spend 11K-19K on a motor for a 5 thousand dollar car.

Thats the reason why I have limited what I'll do for the 914.... Most cars that get my engines sell for much more than any 914 will...

10 years ago I was building engines that sold for more than 5K as a 2056.

wanna cheap out- Buy a Suby..... I hate to admit that, but its the truth.

[fiid]

$5000 will buy you around 5 WRX motors which will put out a combined 1250HP (when tuned to produce 250hp each) and assuming you get 100k out of each one (driving 12k a year) they will last for almost 42 years.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

Sorry.

Incidently - I think it ought to be possible to put together type IV engines for reasonable money that last a reasonable time and put out better HP. I bet if Jake put together a mild combo for 5k he'd sell a lot more (in line with supply and demand) - but somone has to service the top end of the market. Perhaps he ought to do a franchise or something.

[Jake Raby]

Go ahead... Install radiators in ALL of them, I don't give a damn anymore....

Hell I think I'll sell mine and let someone chop it up and ruin it too!

I have been looking for a 356 to German look anyway!

[fiid]

Yeah - it's a shame to cut the car up esp. when there aren't so many of them around. I do feel bad about it... at least until the boost kicks in.

[firstknight13]

ok all you guys take your cars to MEXICO for paint/ bodywork. don't they have " ENGINE BUILDERS"????? no i did say "engine builders" NOT artists like JAKE!!! (semper fi) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[rick 918-S]

There is clearly a market for Jakes motors. The best to him. Jake came here and stated some things that started a real interest in cost vs value. If he hadn't this topic would never have been posted. I had NO idea a 914 motor could cost well over $ 10,000.00 much less sky rocket over $ 20,000.00! Holy Crap!

I've been thinking about this all day. In fact I started researching part prices and talking to local machine shops.

I have a question as well. Well a question, and a statement. After skimming through May 2005 Excellence article titled 911 Engine Displacement Bumps written by Jim Pasha. I couldn't help but be drawn to the statement about life of the lower end of the 911 engine. The artitcle states a normal life is 200,000 or something.

Q.) How many miles can we expect to get from a lower end of the type IV?

My reason for asking is not to start a whole new debate about only doing upper end rebuilds on Pete's thread, but to find out if any mods done to the stock lower end extend the life. And if so what mods are required/useful.

My reason for wanting to know is investigative for pricing USEFUL, meaningful mods.

If the brain trust here agree the lower end is not the weak link and general parts are fine then we should discuss what is practical/meaningful for upper end work.

It seems there is alot of motors that die not as a result of lower end trouble, but heads caused by injection or ignition failures.

My shop manager purchased a 914 from Brad Mauyer. Brad stated his rebuild was good for 125hp. We never dyno'ed the beast but judging from the way that car drove compaired to my stock 1.7 I believe him!



Now where's that popcorn smiley....

[bd1308]

Rick you hit the nail on the head....I believe that the bottom-end of the Type IV is very well designed...the top end sucks (in stock form).

but what can we do to improve the life of the top-end?

*repair FI systems in order to get the ECUs to properly mix fuel and air? (that was my problem with the 2.0)
*better materials in jugs and heads(raby has an answer here)
*DTM?

i mean someone SURELY did something about these problems in the 70s, or designed around them...or did they always run hot and require head repairs every 70k miles?

(edit) rick, while I agree with you about the t4 bottom-end being better than topend, you probably should consider the odd occurance of the cams being ground flat after a rebuild....

[jd74914]

DTM is for stressed engines. A semi-stock or even mildly modded one is OK with stock cooling (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)


Pete: For the record, cause i'm kinda confused, what kind of rebuild are you talking about? A little hopped up stock one or something kinda wild? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

[bd1308]

I dont think cooling with sticks is a very efficient process (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[wilchek]

this is a rough estimate but it does include carbs. I am sure there is at least 500 worth more of parts missing. I think I would go to jake and just buy one of his kits. As a friend once said, it is not about the money, YOU WILL LOOSE MONEY ON THESE CARS AND YOU WILL ENJOY DOING IT. To me it is all about the journey and the challenge of building the engine. If you don't want to do it yourself be ready to open your wallet.

[mightyohm]

Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years?

Who did the work?

How much did it cost?

Does it still run? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)