So I can't (and won't) argue with Jake's policies or pricing. Hell, I helped publicize his acheivements and remain very impressed by them. So let's NOT DEBATE THEM here -- please take that to another thread.

In the meantime, though, I think $5,000 (carbs and ignition included?) seems a far more approachable number for a lot of people. I wouldn't expect to get anything but short-lived junk for $1,300 to $2,600 -- unless I was building it myself.

So what are the possibilities at $5,000 to maybe $6,000? What kind of power, what kind of longevity? Could 120 or 130 hp be so hard to get with decent longevity?

I ask it more as theory and as a business opportunity/service someone could provide the community with -- someone who is well-known as a good engine builder. The 2.0-liter (based on a 1.7) in my 1973 914 has not left the chassis since at least 1986 -- it ain't got much power, but it was obviously built right.

Rather than specific answers, I am hoping to open up a direction of travel for Type IV owners on a real-world budget and (hopefully) a resource to fit that niche.

Or am I alone?

(running for cover)

pete

QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 29 2005, 05:10 PM)

Holy crap. I've got butter rushing through my veins already. How much more popcorn can I eat? I'm crapping cobbs now, no poo just solid corn cobbs

2316 type 4

Under 5 grand. I know you dont want specific answers, but you're paying for jake's time. Its worth a lot. Buy one of his kits, which should be good for 170 hp 165 ft lbs (according to his site), and you're set.

I have a 2056 that I have over 5K in and its still D-Jet. I spent a lot of time in the porting. Balancing the pistons and end balancing the rods. Rimco did all the machine work. If you can't do all of that stuff 5K is not enough.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe

Here is my two cents for a street motor with a little extra kick.

Start with a 2.0L motor. Clean up the heads. To keep costs down, build a 2056, add a cam, and keep it fuel injected using MegaSquirt or something similar. Heat is a concern, so add an oil cooler and tuna can.

Should be about $2500 to $3000 in parts and machine work, and I have heard of VW mechanics who will build motors or $750 to $1000. Figure a little more for someone who knows the Type IV.

Race engine? NO
Last 100000 miles? Probably not.
Better than stock, especially 30 year old stock? Sure

Its pretty much impossible to do... Especially in turn key form with any time at all spent on assembly.

The parts to build the engine correctly will generally cost 5K.

The going rate for a STOCK rebuild at any Porsche shop has been more than 5K since about the year 2,000

To do any engine for 5K thats more than a 2056 would pretty much demand half assed assembly and shoddy attention to detail... There are plenty of those possibilities out there if you want something thats built by someone who is more than likely an illegal alien working for less than minimum wage...

Sorry- just the facts.

More and more individuals are buying my kits and having a local builder ssemble it for 1/2 my labor charges or less..... I have even been selling kits to my competitors because it makes their assemblies go faster and that makes them money!

If it was the old days and you could get employees that weren't hoked on drugs, didn't steal from you and didn't think they should make MORE money than the owner does it may be possible to build cheaper engines for less money- not in 2005, not in todays world!

5 grand including carbs and ign might be a little optimistic to get anything reliable. That said 5K does go a long way not including install, set-up etc. My builder builds really good motors that last and WIN races. The motor in our race car is ten years old! There are too many combinations to list and evaluate and while Jake may know his stuff, most people don't need to spend 11K-19K on a motor for a 5 thousand dollar car. For 5K a whole lot can be done and the stock FI is pretty good up to about 25% more output than stock.

PM me for specific details about building a motor.

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 29 2005, 05:33 PM)

There are plenty of those possibilities out there if you want something thats built by someone who is more than likely an illegal alien working for less than minimum wage...

i think we call them undocumented workers now since we found out that they are from the planet earth.

QUOTE (billswim @ Nov 29 2005, 05:35 PM)

while Jake may know his stuff, most people don't need to spend 11K-19K on a motor for a 5 thousand dollar car.

Thats the reason why I have limited what I'll do for the 914.... Most cars that get my engines sell for much more than any 914 will...

10 years ago I was building engines that sold for more than 5K as a 2056.

wanna cheap out- Buy a Suby..... I hate to admit that, but its the truth.

$5000 will buy you around 5 WRX motors which will put out a combined 1250HP (when tuned to produce 250hp each) and assuming you get 100k out of each one (driving 12k a year) they will last for almost 42 years.



Sorry.

Incidently - I think it ought to be possible to put together type IV engines for reasonable money that last a reasonable time and put out better HP. I bet if Jake put together a mild combo for 5k he'd sell a lot more (in line with supply and demand) - but somone has to service the top end of the market. Perhaps he ought to do a franchise or something.

Go ahead... Install radiators in ALL of them, I don't give a damn anymore....

Hell I think I'll sell mine and let someone chop it up and ruin it too!

I have been looking for a 356 to German look anyway!

Yeah - it's a shame to cut the car up esp. when there aren't so many of them around. I do feel bad about it... at least until the boost kicks in.

ok all you guys take your cars to MEXICO for paint/ bodywork. don't they have " ENGINE BUILDERS"????? no i did say "engine builders" NOT artists like JAKE!!! (semper fi)

There is clearly a market for Jakes motors. The best to him. Jake came here and stated some things that started a real interest in cost vs value. If he hadn't this topic would never have been posted. I had NO idea a 914 motor could cost well over $ 10,000.00 much less sky rocket over $ 20,000.00! Holy Crap!

I've been thinking about this all day. In fact I started researching part prices and talking to local machine shops.

I have a question as well. Well a question, and a statement. After skimming through May 2005 Excellence article titled 911 Engine Displacement Bumps written by Jim Pasha. I couldn't help but be drawn to the statement about life of the lower end of the 911 engine. The artitcle states a normal life is 200,000 or something.

Q.) How many miles can we expect to get from a lower end of the type IV?

My reason for asking is not to start a whole new debate about only doing upper end rebuilds on Pete's thread, but to find out if any mods done to the stock lower end extend the life. And if so what mods are required/useful.

My reason for wanting to know is investigative for pricing USEFUL, meaningful mods.

If the brain trust here agree the lower end is not the weak link and general parts are fine then we should discuss what is practical/meaningful for upper end work.

It seems there is alot of motors that die not as a result of lower end trouble, but heads caused by injection or ignition failures.

My shop manager purchased a 914 from Brad Mauyer. Brad stated his rebuild was good for 125hp. We never dyno'ed the beast but judging from the way that car drove compaired to my stock 1.7 I believe him!



Now where's that popcorn smiley....

Rick you hit the nail on the head....I believe that the bottom-end of the Type IV is very well designed...the top end sucks (in stock form).

but what can we do to improve the life of the top-end?

*repair FI systems in order to get the ECUs to properly mix fuel and air? (that was my problem with the 2.0)
*better materials in jugs and heads(raby has an answer here)
*DTM?

i mean someone SURELY did something about these problems in the 70s, or designed around them...or did they always run hot and require head repairs every 70k miles?

(edit) rick, while I agree with you about the t4 bottom-end being better than topend, you probably should consider the odd occurance of the cams being ground flat after a rebuild....

DTM is for stressed engines. A semi-stock or even mildly modded one is OK with stock cooling


Pete: For the record, cause i'm kinda confused, what kind of rebuild are you talking about? A little hopped up stock one or something kinda wild?

I dont think cooling with sticks is a very efficient process

this is a rough estimate but it does include carbs. I am sure there is at least 500 worth more of parts missing. I think I would go to jake and just buy one of his kits. As a friend once said, it is not about the money, YOU WILL LOOSE MONEY ON THESE CARS AND YOU WILL ENJOY DOING IT. To me it is all about the journey and the challenge of building the engine. If you don't want to do it yourself be ready to open your wallet.

Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years?

Who did the work?

How much did it cost?

Does it still run?

Thats what I'm wondering, cause thats what I'm going to be doing on christmas/winter break

considering that a 911 has a dry sump oil system and has what 10 gal of oil, no wonder they last long.

type 4 have 4 qts of oil, a oil filter and if its changed regularly every 6k the bottom end will last nearly 200k. The heads thou usually are toast around 100k (guide wear out).
911 motors have Alsul or Nikasil cylinders which really help cooling and last 200k. Type 4's atleast 914's have decent quality pistons and cylinders that can last 150 to 200k, as I have seen it.

So for around $5-6k you can get a nicely rebuild 110-120hp 2056 that will last if you start with one thats not been abused.
includes
rebuild 2.0l heads
new P&c's
machine work
bearings
cam & lifters
misc
labor (yours) free!

Can you rebuild (not refresh) a 911 for that? No.

I rebuilt mine in 99 for $3k and had to refresh the top end due to a ring problem after 10k of miles, for another $2k including a new cam and lifters plus pistons. I drive the piss outta it and still have the crappie Djet.

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 08:53 PM)

Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years? Who did the work? How much did it cost? Does it still run?

if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote)

why build anythign other than stock?


b

I remember when I had one of those nice little excel spreadsheets with all my reciepts and purchases and planned purchases. Wow, those were the days...

Now I open up wellsfargo.com and check to see how much money is left.

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 29 2005, 07:55 PM)

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 08:53 PM) Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years? Who did the work? How much did it cost? Does it still run?   if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote) why build anythign other than stock? b

more fun.... can never have enough.

Remember that the labor guide calls for 22 hours to rebuild a stock TIV engine... That does not include and balance or machine work other than what the Bentley dictates, which isn't much at all... The stock specs for pistons gives 5 grams of variance as an acceptable variance and thats 10 times more than should be allowed...(as an example)

Most shops these days charge a minimum of 55 bucks an hour and thats here in the backwoods- Metropolitan areas can be upwards of 85 bucks/hour and some Porsche shops 100 per hour.... So do just that math on the labor of a STOCK engine with not a single update and see what you get.. Also realize that these manuals have not been updated since 1981 as far as their time tables are concerned, so all the extra wear over the 30 year period is not covered and they are not including any time to paint/powdercoat sheetmetal, or even wash the extra crud off thats accumulated after 30 years.....

With that said- I'm done.. This post was about a 5K buck TIV and I sure as hell can't sell you one of those- so why did my name even get dragged into it if my product cost TWICE that much??

You guys can hate me all you want, think I'm expensive as hell if you wish and I really don't give a damn... This bullshit has wasted too much of my time lately and I'm done with it! I posted my standardized engine prices for a 2270 and 2316 with all the specifics and if you want one great- get in line.. If you don't I'll sell you the parts to do it yourself.... If you wanna lay the blade to it and create a Rice/Kraut hybrid then do so.

Forget that I exist for a while- Hell maybe Stromberg will come back in hnere and start posting- He'll sell you a damn engine for 5K proudly!

I have an engine to build- Bye.

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 29 2005, 06:55 PM)

if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote) why build anythign other than stock? b

Hey Britt, if you don't have anything to add....

I am looking for a data point that I think we are missing.

Jake where are those prices, I can't find them. Thank You for the info.

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 09:01 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 29 2005, 06:55 PM) if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote) why build anythign other than stock? b Hey Britt, if you don't have anything to add.... I am looking for a data point that I think we are missing.

what data point are we missing?

i'm done, sorry if i am getting in your way or anything.....

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 29 2005, 06:58 PM)

You guys can hate me all you want, think I'm expensive as hell if you wish and I really don't give a damn... This bullshit has wasted too much of my time lately and I'm done with it! I posted my standardized engine prices for a 2270 and 2316 with all the specifics and if you want one great- get in line.. If you don't I'll sell you the parts to do it yourself.... If you wanna lay the blade to it and create a Rice/Kraut hybrid then do so. Forget that I exist for a while- Hell maybe Stromberg will come back in hnere and start posting- He'll sell you a damn engine for 5K proudly!

With that, I am sure the line will start forming outside your shop any minute....

Britt, That why I posed the question. If we agree the lower end can be left alone (check the balance, recon and balance rods, etc.) Maybe (a useful) oiling system mod. Then by spending the money in the upper end HP and torque numbers should be good.

Based on my limited type IV experience I would say The lower end can handle lots more HP then you could produce by adding upper end mods.

I agree that the cams can be a source of worry.

Has anyone ever come to a conclusion about the use of any of the aftermarket FI units? What ever happened to Kit Carson?

You would think in this day and age a programable FI would be a cinch... Or at least do-able at the cost of carbs.




(Torque = the true measure of a motors ability to move mass)

Jake, your name was mentioned precisely because I did NOT WANT YOU DRAGGED into this. I read all of your posts in the "other" thread and thoght it best not to comment on them there -- or here.

I think ALL of your positions are well defended -- and noted. I also think your views, expertise, and feedback are both valued and respected here.

What I was looking for was views and thoughts from OTHERS in a separate thread. In that sense, I am almost disappointed you replied within this thread -- though I ALWAYS like reading what you have to say. I just wanted to hear the voices of others in a thread that is NOT going up against you or your company.

The title of the thread alone should make it clear it does not apply to Raby motors.

Period.

That said, the kit is a good way of going -- if somebody has the time and space and skill to build their own motor.

That also said, I do not think it's fair or reasonable to say spending $5,000 for a rebuilt engine in a $5,000-10,000 car is "cheaping out." We don't all have $10,000 to $20,000 in disposable income. And that's okay -- just like it's okay to spend it iffn' you got it. If I did, I'd be probably be buying a pretty trick Type IV motor.

No, the thing I am trying to open the discussion to is what the REST OF US see as a reasonable value for roughly $5K. Top-end rebuild only, rebuilt 2056 that's ready to adopt your old D jet, etc.

What are the possibilities at $5K, a sum I suspect is far more realistic for many 914clubbers, a sum that might be justifiable to spouses, college funds, and from Christmas bonuses.

There are already some good replies and feedback here. I think the carbs and ign was a stretch too far.... so what can be done with D jet for $4-6K labor included?

What about this top-end theory? The 911 people all seem to have so much collected wisdom from so many sources that there is a default answer for almost every question -- whether or not it's absolutely true.

The same can't be said for Type IV motors -- and while I respect the views of the established expert, there are others I really respect here too, like JP Stein, Rick, Aaron (well... ), and more... There is a lot of COLLECTED wisdom here. If I screwed up this thread by how I started it, please, someone start another one.

And, tempting as a Subie may be, I'm not there yet.

Flame on -- but let's NOT make this a Jake vs. the world (or me) thread. It was started separately for that very reason. I do NOT question his pricing or policies. I just want to LEARN about the other options and evaluate them for myself.

I would think others could benefit from the same discussion.

pete

Kinda unrelated, but important.

Everyone voicing opinions is pretty much going the totally new engine route. What is so wrong with taking a tired engine, disassembling it, seeing what, if anything it wrong, putting a new gasket set and new rings on (maybe valve guides) and slapping it together and running it?

I'm not really understanding how $5000 goes so fast in just a top end rebuild. For a 2056 or something mild there are no point to Nickies or stuff like that. What sucks up all of the money? Or is it just that everyone wants to go for strokers?

And lastly, I've read about people using Rabbit rods and Chevy pistons on strokers, does anyone know anything about the subject because I think building an engine with these parts would be rather interesting, as well as cheaper (and with a better supply of aftermarket stuff in a sense).

Okay, re-read my original post and edited it -- can see how it did not accomplish my goal very well.

Jake's stated goals are only 30-40 engines a year so I don't understand his agressive stance here. His motors are gold no discussion. they are taken to the "N" degree no disussion. But by jakes own admission he can't handle nor wants to handle the middle of the bell curve.... That said...

I think that the top end study sounds interesting. And what ever happened to Kit carson. Alot of us have carbs in good shape, adding the newer dizzies wouldn't be that expensive, but a newer tunable(sp) affordable injection system still sound sweet..

I rebuilt my motor to a 2056cc in my garage a little over a year ago. About $3500 in parts and machining. Nearly half of that went into the heads. That was just the engine itself - no carbs, no ignition. I built it with 100K mile longevity in mind. Time from pulling the engine to having a running car again: 6 weeks.

Demick

I LOVE my stock 2.0 FI. But I picked up a 2.7 CIS six at fire sale prices in case the type IV goes out. About same $$ to rebuild, and think it would make me happier longer.

With decent Boxsters going for under $15K, it's hard for me to justify the cost of a good type IV rebuild for a street car.

Incoming... Running for cover......

5k I would think would be a stock rebuild, or a 2056 with a carb cam and carbs, with a good balance job and headwork. Probably 115hp? I dunno.

Jake I think you are a bit on the defensive here, and there should be nothing to defend on your part. So stop the tears.

Since the el cheapo engine builders will sell you a "pile of junk" Type IV for under $2K, and the retail prices of the parts involved add up to under $3K, seems to me there's a lot of room there for someone to start building decent $5000 2056 longblocks.

Jake clearly isn't going to do it, but I see no problem with that. There has to be a supplier of "the best" in any market. Most people can't afford the best, but they can afford to not buy junk. The gap between ImportMotors and Jake is awfully large. There seems to be no "mid-market" supplier here.

I've emailed Jake privately several times suggesting that he basically turn his shop into an R&D operation. It's clearly what he enjoys doing, and there's obviously enough money to be made in making ultra-quality 20 engines per year that he can finance this. He could make a good deal more money by licensing his "basic" engine designs (like the "standard" engines he's talked about) to some other shops that simply buy up lots of parts and assemble the engines. He's never responded, but I suspect he's simply not interested, and he has too much ego tied up in his work to farm anything out.

Up to the late 1980s, the import laws in Italy made it nearly impossible to economically import any parts from outside the EU (or even Italy). The Italian parts manufacturers made either cheap junk, or the very best stuff available. Nothing in between. So, you ended up with things like Ducatis with marvelous engines that had cheap switchgear that fell apart in 10 minutes, and shoddy fiberglass work that looked like a10 year old made it after he'd had his first beer. Or Bimotas that had tool-room quality everything, but cost 10 times as much as a Japanese bike. Sales were low. In the early 1990s, the import rules changed, and suddenly Ducati could afford to buy from Japan. The Japanese were and are wizards and producing a wide range of products from the top to the bottom of the cost and quality scales. Overnight, Ducatis sprouted Japanese carbs, suspension, and electrics. Quality zoomed up, but the prices didn't. Ducati sales went through the roof, because for the first time, Italian engineers could build to a cost without sacrificing quality completely. Bimota still exists, and for those who want and can afford top-quality, they can still get it.

Yes it can be done!

With all due regard to Jake and the “Speed is expensive. How fast do you want to spend?” crowd. I know it is possible to get a good, reliable, respectably powered engine for under $5000. I did it about three years ago. A good local machine shop and some basic skills can do it. The following is a bit over simplified but I can give you excruciating detail if you want it.
I had a 1.8 turned into a 2.0 in the car already. But I decided to build a 2.0. So here is the formula I used. Do your own work. I tore down the engine myself. I took pictures and notes as I went. Sent the heads and bottom end to my local (reputable) machine shop. I had them inspect and test (magnaflux) the crank and rods. I also had the case line bored. I got a slightly more aggressive cam from Elgin cams. I had the shop build the bottom end. I also had them inspect and machine the heads. (I can send a PM for exactly what I had machined) That included fixing a few seats. My total from the shop was less then $800. The cam was $150 I think. I took all the pieces home and did the top-end myself. Sorry Jake it isn’t brain surgery. I had a good book and a few lessons I learned on my first motor (the 1.8) all the parts and labor went just over $3000.
Don’t neglect the cooling. I went with the deep pan and a better oil pump. I removed the cooler and went with an external to improve the cooling to the #3 cylinder also. To coin a phrase; “She’s been ridden hard and put away wet.” I have had so much fun and not a lick of trouble. Keep the cam friendly with the EFI or carb choice and have at it.
As an aside I had it on a dyno making 130bhp.

Chris

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 06:53 PM)

Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years? Who did the work? How much did it cost? Does it still run?

yes, by a fantastic mechanic in Denver. i got his old hourly rate of $75, but i think it has since increased to $90. i will have to dig up the invoice for the price, but it was between $4-5k and it was completed earlier this year. it was a complete rebuild with the euro mahles. and YES, it still runs..........

ask any of the Colorado Gang and they will tell you how could this mechanic is.....

he did Ferg's engine install too.

Can I just re-iterate?

Let's NOT attack Jake here.



But let's KEEP talking about real-world solutions based on experience.

The last couple of posts are GREAT...

pete

I have to agree with Howard and Pete. A rebuilt costing more than $5k in a car which is likely to be worth no more than $10 when finished (this assumes nearly rust free, excellent body, paint, interior) makes no sense.
A friend here in Portland had a professional complete rebuild of a 2.0 done by a high quality local Porsche shop. They really didn't want to do it, and probably won't do it again.There is more money and less hassle in repair/maintenance of newer cars. He paid about $7500 and I think there may have been a new clutch and a few more extras beyond the motor work. Reinstalled the D-jet.
I think the answer for most of us is a DIY rebuild, top end only unless there is bearing noise/bad oil pressure. Farm out the head work to capable machine shop. That, or find a used running engine and get a couple of years use out of it and move on to the next one. Otherwise, expect to pay at least $8 and either keep the car long enough to get the value out in driving or expect to sell at a loss.

ChicagoChris is running exactly what I am talking about. Surely there are other great options -- and I like the idea of what might be done on a top-end rebuild.

While big power would be nice, 130 sounds good for this kind of outlay -- as does keeping the stock EFI that has only once in 15 years given me trouble.

Tell me more about the external cooler... in the rear fender, behind the front bumper, under the engine lid , somewhere by the tranny?

How hard was that?!?

pete

QUOTE (Howard @ Nov 29 2005, 07:43 PM)

With decent Boxsters going for under $15K, it's hard for me to justify the cost of a good type IV rebuild for a street car.

That was the wrong thing to say

It isn't too hard to get 130hp for $6k or less, if you already own a set of carbs in decent condition and your core engine is rebuildable. That includes the labor of someone else assembling it too, but no dyno tuning.
I just built a 2056 for a club member. It isn't quite ready to go back in the car but only because of some external parts that are missing. The finished cost will be around $6K. A lot of parts were bought from the Type 4 Store, and ceramic lifters were used. My labor is well under half the total cost. D-jet FI is being used so it probably won't make 130HP. I didn't optimize the valve lift but I did get the geometry close enough to help the valve guides last. The heads were in good shape but Len Hoffman still had to do some welding. The crank was already prepped when the disassembled engine was brought to me. The rods already had the big end resized but I had to get new wrist pin bushings installed.

I bought a used 2.0 with clutch, exhaust and FI for $800.00 came with a tune up kit to boot. Engine supposedly had about 30k on the rebuild. I tore the heads off and Cyl's still had cross hatching on them and I couldn't see any cracks in the head. I put a few hundered in new FI hoses and an injector. That price worked for me, and I guess I lucked out on getting what what was advertised.

Who's attacking Jake? Jake jumped in here swinging and telling us he basically is wasting his time here. If he wants to take his ball and run, get to stepping. No-one makes anyone stick around that doesn't want to.

I enjoy his posts on what he is working on. He knows his stuff and builds some great engines at a comensurate price.

The only reference to his engines was that what can I do at a price that is more affordable than top shelf engines from Jake? The fact that we continually get this I am wasting my time, I will not enhance any 914 products and crap like that, whatever. We are not a punching bag for a sale you have a hard time making.

Just as a data point...in Jan of 02, after throwing away ~2500 into a 2.0L that I tried to build (it ran, but never well, totally my fault, got in over my head without knowing enough) I sent a very nice core 2.0L to our favorite engine builder, and about 4-5k later I had a 2056 with new carbs that dynoed at 130hp @ 6300rpm and 131tq @ 4500rpm ...

The heads never go over 350 (stock cooling tin), and I only see that when pulling hard in 5th...I did need to add an external cooler to keep the oil temps under control, but they are managed well with a small 8x11" x 1.5"thick cooler up front.

I guess I am lucky that I got in line when I did, and I am sure glad that I did, not having to worry a lick about the motor has allowed me to do suspension, brake, and interior stuff, and beat the snot out of the car at autox's and country drives.

Anyway, in 02 4-5K got me 2.0L heads with welded up plugs (12mm), slight port job, new valves, HD springs, split duration web cam, KB 96mm pistons, everthing cryoed, balanced, and broken in on the dyno...I think thats about it...

Tony

Ouch, that is alot of cash for a (hot rod) VW bus motor. I don't have any issues with the amount of time and work needed to make a great engine - but this is just nuts.
I have had the pleasure to work on some big power engines when I was in school (big like over 1100 hp drag stuff) and understand that detail is everything in engine building. I remember spending about 4 hours setting up an oil pump. I also built a 5.0 Ford that when 192mph in T-bird in one of the first SilverState race. It was almost totally stock - just a carefully assembled stock engine with a mild cam and 4psi of boost. I don't think it would cost more than 2k for labor and the parts cost almost nothing - just reused stock stuff.
I think Jake is correct - go Suby if you want cheap power, thats what I am doing.
With labor at 90-120/hour in the bay area I think the bill will be ugly no matter what direction you go with the T-4, at least 2K plus parts and machine shop time - all this to make ~120-130 hp.

No question that an NA Subie with a radiator in the engine compartment is a cheaper ticket to 150-170 hp. But this is NOT a $5,000 Type IV vs. Subie engines vs. $10,000 Type IV vs. $15,000 Type IV vs. Six Conversion vs. SBC thread

Giving up 20-40 horses to keep the original style of engine in the car seems a UT greasonable compromise. And surely one that can be accomplished for $5-6K -- a reasonable budget if not the generous one so many wish (but may never) have.



This is a thread to get an idea of what can a 914 owner get done for $5K.

So far, it seems two routes are emerging:

1. A top-end rebuild and "hottening"

2. A reasonably well done stocker with a little extra hp

There's plenty of room to expand on both!

Should I dump this thread and start one for each of the above?

pete