i got just under 27mpg (adjusted for tire/speedo error) a few weeks ago driving down to the ocean. 40mm carbs, cam unkown, mallory dist. i can live with that. driving habits contribute to high fuel consumption.

k

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 30 2005, 01:48 PM)

why would the actual dyno install time be substancially longer than an owner putting one into a car? i'm not talking about a relaxed, have a cup of coffee, a smoke, whatever, work pace. hard at it sweat time. presuming you have a dyno and some sort of lift- 4 nuts, a cluster of wires (most in place on the dyno side, plug them in), fuel delivery...am i missing something? what is the acutal time (real minutes) required to set up an engine in the dyno? k

Book time is to even out the guesstimates...

The book says ten hours for a heater core...that is what they charge...if you dont like that...go somewhere else...

When you get quoted 1k to dyno tune an engine...dont argue..that is the price...if its to much..move on...

You cannot control the price from a vendor...you can control where you shop...it is that simple...

Paying by the hour of real time worked is a joke..

There is alot more overhead in running a business that needs to be paid for somehow...it comes off of every transaction...

How about the 15 minute phone call...who pays for that..you ???

When you call a lawyer...you are billed...but when you call a mechanic, you ask advice, you talk for an hour...yet that mechanic did not get paid for that hour..nor did they get any billable work done during that hour....

business has alot of complex issues that come up the minute you open up a shop that has lights and heat, and employees and so forth...

It is never going to be a simple billable rate of x per hour....its x per hour, plus ovehead...plus time loss. plus plus plus plus...

I think that what our fair canadian has offered is perfect...dont abuse him for having the balls to state his prices...dont argue with him about his prices...he gave it alot of thought...those are the prices..


If you want to open a business building engines...state your prices here...if they are cheap enough, you will get business...but with that cheap customer comes alot of expectations that you will need to manage and ensure you have a happy customer in the end...

BTW...I think for 5k a 2056 built for either Djet, or Carbs is all that should be offered...no options at all..
Two engines..one with one cam and head config...the other with a different cam and head config.

Rich

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Nov 29 2005, 06:06 PM)

The $5,000 Type IV?, What would it look like?

it would look like this ...

and if you're as lucky as i was, it'll last you at least a 1000 miles!
Andy

It should be clarified what is to be included in the $5K engine rebuild, because whats been said so far leads me to believe there are differing opinions. Some of the discussions have been apples and others oranges. Lets be careful not to confuse the issues for the purposes of this thread.

Some may disagree and thats cool. Its has been suggested that we have to include a NEW intake system - FI, carbs, and then it snowballs into needing dyno tuning...to me thats not part of a typical engine rebuild, it is a separate issue. Engines need rebuilding because they wear out and fail mechanically, so the rebuild should be limited to mechanical refurbishment to original specs - machine work, head refurbishment, replacement of bearings, valves and guides and wear items as needed...in other words engine rebuild = long block. Its reasonable to expect a mechanical rebuild to include refinishing the tin and fastener replacement to do a responsible job because those components are related to the mechanical aspects of the engine typically worn too. But a flywheel is not an engine rebuild item...its a clutch maintenance item just as a new alternator harness is not an engine rebuild item, its an electrical system maintenance item.

The existing induction should just be a take off and bolt-on item so no dyno tuning is necessary, so all those line items are zeros.

Oh so you want to upgrade? More cc's, stroked...higher compression? Is your existing induction worn out or more expensive to repair than to replace, then those are upgrades from the original, and may require replacement or tweaking of the induction...a separate issue from an engine rebuild so budget accordingly, but don't classify those costs as a stright rebuild, they are upgrades.

I know I am one of the odd-men out here, because I am quite satisfied with the stock 1971 and D-jet. But I dont expect my 914 to perform like a race car, its supposed to be a fun, economical little daily driver to me is all and it serves that purpose very well. Its has been relatively inexpensive to operate and maintain, the D-jet works great and I have never had a problem with it, that was not a simple maintenance item, but the time will come and when it does, it will get replaced. I have no need for a high end race quality engine in my engine bay becasue it defeats the 'economical' aspect of the 914. If I wanted to spend that many Washingtons on a sports car the 914 would not be the car of choice...

A stock mechanical rebuild for my stock setup, which is what I understood Petes initial question, should be straightforward and comfortably within $5K. I figure could save about 30% of that cost if I did the labor myself and just bought parts. The minute you start talking upgrades though it gets expensive quickly because so much of it is in uncharted territory and someone has to pay for the R+D.

please point out any abusive aspect of my reply. you can save your terse "if you don't like that...go somewhere else..." for someone who gives a shit. so it's a crime around here to ask questions?

please reread my issue with the ford dealership service department. if a service will take 8 or 10 hours, fine. the car was dropped off a 7, techs clock in at 8. i doubt if they are turning a wrench within 30 minutes. break time, crap time, lunch time, brief personal phone call time, etc. my presumption that it would actually take the time quoted was an exspensive lesson learned. it had been a long time since i had service work done at a dealership, and the last. there is incentive for techs to complete under book times.

book times should be protection for the consumer, not free access to their checkbook.

k

Book times... now HERE'S a whole 'nuther thread to it's own...



I would think the overhead is built into the rate. However, time wasters on the telephone is a REAL issue for mechanics. A lot of them get a firewall (phone answerer that JUST makes appointments) for that very reason.

One local Porsche dealer puts a lot of value on techs who can get the job done in less than the allotted time -- there's a bit of a competition among the techs for top-dog status in this regard. To do it, shortcuts are taken. And no, the customer doesn't reap any of the savings.

Of course, one customer should not pay for another's tough job -- and I would be mad if I paid for 10 hours of labor when my car was only in for 6 or 7. Now, if the advisor was smart and said two techs were working on my car, I'd have nothing to argue...

But there is another side: There are a LOT of shops and good mechanics that eat it on jobs that took them, say, 15 hours and they could only charge for 10 because the book time says 10 hours and the customer whines about paying the mechanic for what they should -- fixing THEIR problem.

So this is ANOTHER issue. Let's put it in another thread.

pete

Well said Jeff and Pete

The real question is how much is a good engine and your 914 worth to you. A few guys here have had major issues with engines they've bought, Andy and Rich have been burned.

Dyno time would really only be needed for an unkown aftermaket FI set-up, with the SDS I could load my maps and get you close. Carbs I can also get you real close without it.
But your right all these are extras driving up the costs.

Unfortunetly book time doesn't work well with low run custom. I wish I had gravy just some of the time.

My machinist wants money, my powdercoater wants money, my supplier wants money, my utility company wants money, Bell wants money, my banker wants money and in the end I'd like some money.


The problem with a group buy is everyone expects and wants something different. I think it's too expensive of an item to make this fly.

Mark,

I think you're right -- too many people have too many expectations.

But it seems like there is a market for a high-quality (but not highest quality) 2056 long-block in two forms:
-One with a hotter cam for carbs
-One with a cam compatible with D-jet.

Gets shipped to customer X and customer X either puts it in or has mechanic put it in. Either no warranty or a minimal one (hard parts yes but no dropped valves or other failures that can be attributed to setup, etc). Customer or their mechanic is responsible for transferring their own (working) injection or carbs and making the thing run.

As I plan for the future of my 914, this sounds like a good route. Or is it a pipe dream at $5,000 or so?

I think it could be done...will it be done is a whole different thing.

Like I said before if I "could" get 20 guys to sign up when I say "show me the money", 15+ will bail.

At least that's what happened when I did the SDS group buy 4 years ago. Then we were only talking about $800 to $1400., not 5k.

QUOTE (d914 @ Nov 29 2005, 07:37 PM)

And what ever happened to Kit Carson?

In my John Travolta voice, from the film GET SHORTY:


"Dead"

John


Please Look Here

I think that product's name is Kit Carlson, subtle difference....
I think McMark runs one...

There's got to be some warranty, even at a paltry $5k. I recently spoke with a P. car wrecking yard and they offer 90 day warranty on an engine removed from a wreck (they do compression and leak down before shipping). I haven't read the fine print or bought an engine from them, but I would think a type 4 builder could at least give 90 days for $5000.

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 30 2005, 11:48 AM)

what is the acutal time (real minutes) required to set up an engine in the dyno? k

I know when I dyno'd my motor this summer, I was at the shop at 8:30am and out the door at 6:30pm

that was carb jetting only.... no other changes.
I worked side by side with the mechanic.

those were not all minutes spent on the dyno, but I think the point is that if its going to take someone 10hours of their day to dyno.. then they will not bill for just the minutes of the runs.

brant

QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 30 2005, 01:41 PM)

QUOTE (d914 @ Nov 29 2005, 07:37 PM) And what ever happened to Kit Carson? I think that product's name is Kit Carlson, subtle difference.... I think McMark runs one...

I run the Kit Carlson. Last I heard he was dealing with personal issues, but has every intention of getting back into the FI project. In fact, I'll send him an email and see how he's doing...

QUOTE (McMark @ Nov 30 2005, 03:57 PM)

QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 30 2005, 01:41 PM) QUOTE (d914 @ Nov 29 2005, 07:37 PM) And what ever happened to Kit Carson? I think that product's name is Kit Carlson, subtle difference.... I think McMark runs one... I run the Kit Carlson. Last I heard he was dealing with personal issues, but has every intention of getting back into the FI project. In fact, I'll send him an email and see how he's doing...

Thanks Mark. I think that system would make a great option for a better than stock rebuild. It needs to be user friendly and around the cost of a set of carbs and it will be golden.

Here's what we've discussed.

Jeff made a very good point (as usual thanks Jeff) about simply freshing up a stock motor. Great info and very do-able.

Pete is still asking about 120-150 HP for a fair price and continuing to challenge the club.

Several people have laid testamony to their success with the DYI. But we're looking for the crate motor not the suzy home maker kit.

I think we seem to all agree for a basic rebuild, very little needs to be done to the lower end to make it live again.

I think we also agree once the lower end is fresh it should handle 120/150 hp without an issue.

I've received some PM regarding parts that may or may not be available. I can't disclose anymore than that without permission from the sender. But Hi quality parts from a good and reputable source are starting to surface.

Let's try this. All guy's that have built a type IV more than say 6 times post what you feel you could do a tear down, examine parts, prep and clean the motor for reassembly with a quality kit. This will be a kit available to a builder only. Everything needed to make a long block able to develop 120/150 hp will be there for the assembly. So no guess work for the builder and no liability for the mistakes from the end user as this will be less carbs or injection.

no dyno time, no run in, just a great new short block ready for a guy to install and tune.

Next we need to know what it's worth to do that work. No more, no less, no frills, no hassle, no surprises, and no options for the buyer. Just a good short block that will produce 120/150 hp with the correct tuning.

Try that.

Please don't stray from the challenge.

I've been reading this post and the other about Jake's pricing...has anyone considered or had experience with Fat Preformance?

Fat Preformance

These guys have specilized in type IV's for many years and I believe have a good reputation. DH

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Nov 30 2005, 08:38 PM)

Let's try this. All guy's that have built a type IV more than say 6 times post what you feel you could do a tear down, examine parts, prep and clean the motor for reassembly with a quality kit. This will be a kit available to a builder only. Everything needed to make a long block able to develop 120/150 hp will be there for the assembly. So no guess work for the builder and no liability for the mistakes from the end user as this will be less carbs or injection. no dyno time, no run in, just a great new short block ready for a guy to install and tune.

A long block was more or less defined earlier in this thread to include the tin and induction, so I'll put forward this definition of a short block as a sealed engine with valve train properly set up, static timed distributor and installed clutch but no cooling tin or induction.

Starting and ending with a short block, I can disassemble, clean, inspect and reassemble with new parts for about $2K. I can get some machine work done locally as necessary, like crank grinding/balancing and rod reconditioning.

QUOTE (Racer Chris @ Nov 30 2005, 07:14 PM)

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Nov 30 2005, 08:38 PM) Let's try this. All guy's that have built a type IV more than say 6 times post what you feel you could do a tear down, examine parts, prep and clean the motor for reassembly with a quality kit. This will be a kit available to a builder only. Everything needed to make a long block able to develop 120/150 hp will be there for the assembly. So no guess work for the builder and no liability for the mistakes from the end user as this will be less carbs or injection. no dyno time, no run in, just a great new short block ready for a guy to install and tune. A long block was more or less defined earlier in this thread to include the tin and induction, so I'll put forward this definition of a short block as a sealed engine with valve train properly set up, static timed distributor and installed clutch but no cooling tin or induction. Starting and ending with a short block, I can disassemble, clean, inspect and reassemble with new parts for about $2K. I can get some machine work done locally as necessary, like crank grinding/balancing and rod reconditioning.

Yes, I agree with that. No tin, just the long block.

That's what were looking for. Are you saying $2000.00 including some minor machine work? So that would be worse case? Barring any resizing.... Just polish, recon, etc. ?...

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Nov 30 2005, 10:40 PM)

That's what were looking for. Are you saying $2000.00 including some minor machine work? So that would be worse case? Barring any resizing.... Just polish, recon, etc. ?...

Any machine work would be additional. I just mentioned it so you would know I have access to it locally.

QUOTE (Kargeek @ Nov 30 2005, 05:38 PM)

I've been reading this post and the other about Jake's pricing...has anyone considered or had experience with Fat Preformance? Fat Preformance These guys have specilized in type IV's for many years and I believe have a good reputation. DH

I don't know why we don't hear more about FAT. They've probably built more competitive SCORE engines than anyone else. At least Type I's and IV's. They also build Toyotas.

"I think" they build a Type IV thats in these, and its good enough for our Navy SEALS.

I'd have to agree with Chris. $2k is a comfortable number. If I could get a nice 135 hp kit for $3k, a long block for $5k would be a snap.

My solution to induction would be that hopefully whoever () could provide that kit could have one engine setup on the dyno and tuned with a FI setup. MegaSquirt would be a good choice. That way you could get a turn-key engine for $5500 using stock FI hardware and MS electronics.

Of course it's not going to be built to the full potential of the Type IV engine, and the fuel map will be a little off for each engine. But it's seems like a solid solution for the budget minded 914 owner.

QUOTE (Kargeek @ Nov 30 2005, 05:38 PM)

These guys have specilized in type IV's for many years and I believe have a good reputation. DH

ask Elliot

Hi Guys,

I am not trying to go off post, but here's some interesting information. Because of this engine cost review I finally went into my files and added up all the material costs and labor costs to complete my (anal) restoration approx. (10) years ago.

Base line: I started with a rust free Calif. 914 2.0 liter with 100K miles and did a (5) year restoration, every nut, bolt, rubber part, etc was replaced. It truly ended up a new 914. In addition I spent over (2000) of my personal manhours to assembly along with labor hours spent on outside services I could not perform.

Here is the breakdown:
$15,000 parts (10) years ago Based on 5% inflation = $25,000 today (maybe)
$6,000 Outside labor ditto = $10,000 today
(2,000) of my labor hrs. (free). figure today @ $50 hr.= $100,000 today

When you start to analyze figures it's shocking. I believe today's 914 parts prices would be much higher, because most are no longer available. The great thing about our 914's they can be fitted with newer motors or whatever is available to the owner. I guess that's what we love about our 914's.

Now back to the programing. How to build a 914 motor for $5K or below. Sorry Pete.

Tom
BTW
Makes sense when you purchase to buy the best or lowest milage one available.

What I was prepared to offer I think was substantially better that what is being discussed now. Complete machining with no up charges, unless your heads were totally munched.

The more I think about this the more I think it’s a bad idea for me.
I'm not mad or pissy...I just think it would/will end up giant clusterfuck. Besides I got plenty on my plate as it is.

If you need quality engine work at a reasonable price PM me, other than that I’m not interested in a group buy.

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Dec 1 2005, 06:04 AM)

What I was prepared to offer I think was substantially better that what is being discussed now. Complete machining with no up charges, unless your heads were totally munched. The more I think about this the more I think it’s a bad idea for me. I'm not mad or pissy...I just think it would/will end up giant clusterfuck. Besides I got plenty on my plate as it is. If you need quality engine work at a reasonable price PM me, other than that I’m not interested in a group buy.

Probably a wise call. Group buys are great for less expensive, existing items. The logistics of organizing an engine buy and finding 5 or 10 folks interested in an engine at exactly the same time would be hellish.

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Dec 1 2005, 05:30 AM)

Now back to the programing. How to build a 914 motor for $5K or below. Sorry Pete. Tom

No apologies needed here -- the whole idea was opening up a discussion and the information in this thread has been helpful, and then some.



I agree that a group buy is probably not the way to go here -- but I think getting to the point where we can start to see what kind of longblock could be had for *around* $5K if one doesn't go nuts on trick options has been VERY interesting.

From what I've read so far, it seems like the 2056 kit @ just over $3K + someone's labor @ around $2K is a good route to a modest power bump via high-quality parts.

After that, it's time to get back to driving!

pete

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Dec 1 2005, 05:30 AM)

Hi Guys, I am not trying to go off post, but here's some interesting information. Because of this engine cost review I finally went into my files and added up all the material costs and labor costs to complete my (anal) restoration approx. (10) years ago. Base line: I started with a rust free Calif. 914 2.0 liter with 100K miles and did a (5) year restoration, every nut, bolt, rubber part, etc was replaced. It truly ended up a new 914. In addition I spent over (2000) of my personal manhours to assembly along with labor hours spent on outside services I could not perform. Here is the breakdown: $15,000 parts (10) years ago Based on 5% inflation = $25,000 today (maybe) $6,000 Outside labor ditto = $10,000 today (2,000) of my labor hrs. (free). figure today @ $50 hr.= $100,000 today When you start to analyze figures it's shocking. I believe today's 914 parts prices would be much higher, because most are no longer available. The great thing about our 914's they can be fitted with newer motors or whatever is available to the owner. I guess that's what we love about our 914's. Now back to the programing. How to build a 914 motor for $5K or below. Sorry Pete. Tom BTW Makes sense when you purchase to buy the best or lowest milage one available.

Tom, your car is really nice

what would it look like?

it would look just like my almost freebie 1.7.....



b

I did some searching to understand the KitCarson FI upgrade. It appears to work with the existing Djet intake for large bore engines. Is this correct?

QUOTE (blitZ @ Dec 2 2005, 09:07 AM)

I did some searching to understand the KitCarson FI upgrade. It appears to work with the existing Djet intake for large bore engines. Is this correct?

Kit's system is dead...at least for a while. He may get back into it, but for now it's a no go.

SDS and the others also can work with the existing Djet intake but it's not just a bolt on. With a big bore it can work to a point.

I just talked to Dave, and Kit Carlson doesn't sound as dead as you and I both thought it was.

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 2 2005, 12:46 PM)

I just talked to Dave, and Kit Carlson doesn't sound as dead as you and I both thought it was.

As much as I like the SDS that's good news

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 2 2005, 11:46 AM)

I just talked to Dave, and Kit Carlson doesn't sound as dead as you and I both thought it was.

Please
Tell us more.

It's not my story to tell.

All I'm willing to say is, it's not time to forget about Dave and KitCarlson.

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 2 2005, 10:27 AM)

It's not my story to tell. All I'm willing to say is, it's not time to forget about Dave and KitCarlson.

fingers crossed for good things in the future. Let us know when you can.

so what happened.......... how does this story end? Am I going to be able to keep my 4 or should I keep looking for an early six?

You'll be able to keep your four. This thread did have an effect.

chrisg,

I am glad you brought this back up. I was wondering myself. Maybe the answer is no answer for a $5,000 type-4 motor. Think about it from a business view. Why would someone want to supply the low end market with a slim margin of profit. One or two warranty issues and all profit is gone.

Looks like motor builder's in standard type-4 (including standard 6's) Porsche motors don't want this business. They make money in the high end stuff. Why take risk with low profit margins. Makes sense to me.

Maybe we should look at it another way. Encourage vendors to sell a complete kit for the do it yourself crowd. I beleive someone could make a good profit by putting together a book/manual with detailed procedures for the home builder. Make it idiot proof with a parts list and pictures. I think that would be a good seller and good for the vendor selling the parts kit. I know the 911 crowd have a book by Wayne @ Pelican & Bruce Anderson. We need one for the 914er's.

Who in our crowd could do a book/manual??? Any suggestions???

Answer: If you want a $5K motor you have to do it yourself.

Tom
BTW
I called my motor builder and he didn't return my call. I was told he went to work for a large corporation to feed his family.

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Dec 4 2005, 08:47 PM)

Maybe we should look at it another way. Encourage vendors to sell a complete kit for the do it yourself crowd. I beleive someone could make a good profit by putting together a book/manual with detailed procedures for the home builder. Make it idiot proof with a parts list and pictures. I think that would be a good seller and good for the vendor selling the parts kit. I know the 911 crowd have a book by Wayne @ Pelican & Bruce Anderson. We need one for the 914er's. Who in our crowd could do a book/manual??? Any suggestions???

Have you ever heard of Jake Raby?

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/h...ome.php?cat=308

He sells complete kits for our motors. $5K actually buys you a 2270 that puts out around 150hp. A 2056 kit costs $3K. If you can't put it together yourself, find a competent type IV mechanic who will assemble it for you. I can't imagine that it would cost more than $1000 more.

BTW, Jake also sells a Type IV engine build DVD.

I agree with Chris Foley's estimates.
Just helped a friend tonight put his motor back in. 2.0.
New rings, new bearings, valve job, magnuflux everything, no cracks, checked and resized where necessary, all new gaskets, oil pump, and hoses. He pulled it, I helped him put it back in. Saw the receipt from the local bug shop. Total coat $1,835.00. 30,000 mile warranty.
Second time he has done this, got 165,000 miles out of the first one with regular oil changes and maintaince and nothing more.
Here in SoCal there are some great shops building motors for off road racing at a price much more reasonable than almost anything else I've seen posted. Our motors are still popular among the guys building racers for offroad because they are so reasonable. Entirely different mentality than what I've seen on this site so far. There is very little reason to get into a 10 0r 15,000 dollar engine for these cars unless it's a six.
Just my .02 cents worth.
Randy

Anthony & Randy.

I know about Jake, just didn't want to limit parts from one vendor. My main point was to get someone interested in publishing a motor manual to rebuild type-4 motor's. It could sell @ $49.00 dollars (or about) and help the novice who dosn't have confidience. It could be a good money maker for someone.

We need to develop a Type-4 mouth piece like Bruce Anderson for the 914 crowd. Like Sir Andy or Brad, or Mueller, or Craig, or Mark, or Chris, or ???? We need a 914 expert as our poster boy. Someone to take over Dr. 914's job. Notice he is always mentioned in most magazines. Somebody please step up.

Tom

I think my whole issue is just finding a competent builder (and to be honest I haven't really pursued that yet) as I have no problem buying a kit from Jake, it would be well worth the money. I just lack the time and confidence to do the build.
If I spend $3-4,000 on a kit, I'd rather have it assembled by someone who has already built hundreds or thousands of type4's. Break it in and tune it on a dyno after would be nice too.

Hey Guys,

I want to put closure to my recent posts.

My motor builder finally called me this evening.

Quote: By well known Primo Petrucci of Petrucci Racing, custom VW & Type4 motor builder in the Great Lakes MI area.
Here is how he summed up our conversation. I got out of the full time motor building business a little over a year ago. I am now doing work in the tool & die field making a good living for my family. He will do side jobs if someone wants to pay for quality work and he knows them. He said he will sit home & watch TV rather than do work for someone who wants it done cheap. Primo said everyone he knows in the VW Air Cooled field will not service the low end crowd. Custom work with big $$ is the only thing they will consider. Primo said if they can't afford a Porsche they should buy a used subaru. That's what he said

Summary:
Everything Jake is saying about doing custom work is true. No room for the little guy wanting standard rebuilds cheap or reasonable. It's about vendors making money with deep pocket people who want quality and will pay for it. Looks like the little guy will have to do his own work if on a tight budget.

Tom
BTW
Sorry to give you this news. We are lucky to have Jake Raby.

I'm getting into this discussion too late BUT, I have been rebuilding T4's for about 10 years at my home for our own use and for some teeners in the local area (Atlanta). I have about 40+ hours in a rebuild. That is dissassembling a dirty old engine, cleaning, honing the barrels. That does not include Head work. I always clean and wire brush all the nuts and wire brush the threads. I can't balance at home but I weigh everything and match before assembly. I also run everything up on an engine stand before delivery to check for leaks and to adjust the valves after about 1 hour.
So figure about 45 hours X labor rate. Al

How many hours would it take for someone experienced to assemble one of Jake's kits into longblock form?

Earlier in the thread, both Mark and I figured we could put a motor together for about $2k.

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 5 2005, 09:52 PM)

Earlier in the thread, both Mark and I figured we could put a motor together for about $2k.

I agree with the Marks. Anyone that wants to prove either one of these guys wrong send them your motor. You won't be disappointed. I can assemble a type IV . But I'm not an engine builder and I'm too busy to hire out my service. The trick is a supply of quality parts in kit form and a good core lower end. I've seen McMark's work in progress. First at the WCC "04" Then at the "05" I like the injection test pipe. Really cool stuff. I don't think McMark knew I was checking out his work But I was impressed, and I built the Alien... for what it's worth...

QUOTE (Kargeek @ Nov 30 2005, 06:38 PM)

I've been reading this post and the other about Jake's pricing...has anyone considered or had experience with Fat Preformance? Fat Preformance These guys have specilized in type IV's for many years and I believe have a good reputation. DH

I had FAT Performance build an engine for me about two years ago. I brought them a crankcase, crankshaft, flywheel and heads from a 2.0 that I bought for $500. They gave back a complete engine. 2.2 liter with webbers, euro headers and a bunch of other stuff I'd have to look up in the shop list. It produced 147 horsepower on the dyno. Of course there was that valve lifter porblem. Twice. They made good on it both times and I have some ceramic lifters for it now and will install them some day. The total came to $7000. I still don't think the webbers are set up just right yet but all in all I have been pretty satisfied with the engine.
Cheers, Elliot

Well, it's real. Visit the Parts & Resources section for details or click here.

Thanks to Jake for helping make this happen and thanks to Rick for lighting a fire under our asses.