The $5,000 Type IV?, What would it look like? Options

[TROJANMAN]

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 06:53 PM)

Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years? Who did the work? How much did it cost? Does it still run?   (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

yes, by a fantastic mechanic in Denver. i got his old hourly rate of $75, but i think it has since increased to $90. i will have to dig up the invoice for the price, but it was between $4-5k and it was completed earlier this year. it was a complete rebuild with the euro mahles. and YES, it still runs.......... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

ask any of the Colorado Gang and they will tell you how could this mechanic is..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

he did Ferg's engine install too. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif)

[horizontally-opposed]

Can I just re-iterate?

Let's NOT attack Jake here. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)



But let's KEEP talking about real-world solutions based on experience.

The last couple of posts are GREAT... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)

pete

[Porsche Rescue]

I have to agree with Howard and Pete. A rebuilt costing more than $5k in a car which is likely to be worth no more than $10 when finished (this assumes nearly rust free, excellent body, paint, interior) makes no sense.
A friend here in Portland had a professional complete rebuild of a 2.0 done by a high quality local Porsche shop. They really didn't want to do it, and probably won't do it again.There is more money and less hassle in repair/maintenance of newer cars. He paid about $7500 and I think there may have been a new clutch and a few more extras beyond the motor work. Reinstalled the D-jet.
I think the answer for most of us is a DIY rebuild, top end only unless there is bearing noise/bad oil pressure. Farm out the head work to capable machine shop. That, or find a used running engine and get a couple of years use out of it and move on to the next one. Otherwise, expect to pay at least $8 and either keep the car long enough to get the value out in driving or expect to sell at a loss.

[horizontally-opposed]

ChicagoChris is running exactly what I am talking about. Surely there are other great options -- and I like the idea of what might be done on a top-end rebuild.

While big power would be nice, 130 sounds good for this kind of outlay -- as does keeping the stock EFI that has only once in 15 years given me trouble.

Tell me more about the external cooler... in the rear fender, behind the front bumper, under the engine lid (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) , somewhere by the tranny?

How hard was that?!?

pete

[MattR]

QUOTE (Howard @ Nov 29 2005, 07:43 PM)

With decent Boxsters going for under $15K, it's hard for me to justify the cost of a good type IV rebuild for a street car.

That was the wrong thing to say (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/slap.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[ChrisFoley]

It isn't too hard to get 130hp for $6k or less, if you already own a set of carbs in decent condition and your core engine is rebuildable. That includes the labor of someone else assembling it too, but no dyno tuning.
I just built a 2056 for a club member. It isn't quite ready to go back in the car but only because of some external parts that are missing. The finished cost will be around $6K. A lot of parts were bought from the Type 4 Store, and ceramic lifters were used. My labor is well under half the total cost. D-jet FI is being used so it probably won't make 130HP. I didn't optimize the valve lift but I did get the geometry close enough to help the valve guides last. The heads were in good shape but Len Hoffman still had to do some welding. The crank was already prepped when the disassembled engine was brought to me. The rods already had the big end resized but I had to get new wrist pin bushings installed.

[TravisNeff]

I bought a used 2.0 with clutch, exhaust and FI for $800.00 came with a tune up kit to boot. Engine supposedly had about 30k on the rebuild. I tore the heads off and Cyl's still had cross hatching on them and I couldn't see any cracks in the head. I put a few hundered in new FI hoses and an injector. That price worked for me, and I guess I lucked out on getting what what was advertised.

Who's attacking Jake? Jake jumped in here swinging and telling us he basically is wasting his time here. If he wants to take his ball and run, get to stepping. No-one makes anyone stick around that doesn't want to.

I enjoy his posts on what he is working on. He knows his stuff and builds some great engines at a comensurate price.

The only reference to his engines was that what can I do at a price that is more affordable than top shelf engines from Jake? The fact that we continually get this I am wasting my time, I will not enhance any 914 products and crap like that, whatever. We are not a punching bag for a sale you have a hard time making.

[cha914]

Just as a data point...in Jan of 02, after throwing away ~2500 into a 2.0L that I tried to build (it ran, but never well, totally my fault, got in over my head without knowing enough) I sent a very nice core 2.0L to our favorite engine builder, and about 4-5k later I had a 2056 with new carbs that dynoed at 130hp @ 6300rpm and 131tq @ 4500rpm ...

The heads never go over 350 (stock cooling tin), and I only see that when pulling hard in 5th...I did need to add an external cooler to keep the oil temps under control, but they are managed well with a small 8x11" x 1.5"thick cooler up front.

I guess I am lucky that I got in line when I did, and I am sure glad that I did, not having to worry a lick about the motor has allowed me to do suspension, brake, and interior stuff, and beat the snot out of the car at autox's and country drives.

Anyway, in 02 4-5K got me 2.0L heads with welded up plugs (12mm), slight port job, new valves, HD springs, split duration web cam, KB 96mm pistons, everthing cryoed, balanced, and broken in on the dyno...I think thats about it...

Tony (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)

[Porcharu]

Ouch, that is alot of cash for a (hot rod) VW bus motor. I don't have any issues with the amount of time and work needed to make a great engine - but this is just nuts.
I have had the pleasure to work on some big power engines when I was in school (big like over 1100 hp drag stuff) and understand that detail is everything in engine building. I remember spending about 4 hours setting up an oil pump. I also built a 5.0 Ford that when 192mph in T-bird in one of the first SilverState race. It was almost totally stock - just a carefully assembled stock engine with a mild cam and 4psi of boost. I don't think it would cost more than 2k for labor and the parts cost almost nothing - just reused stock stuff.
I think Jake is correct - go Suby if you want cheap power, thats what I am doing.
With labor at 90-120/hour in the bay area I think the bill will be ugly no matter what direction you go with the T-4, at least 2K plus parts and machine shop time - all this to make ~120-130 hp.

[horizontally-opposed]

No question that an NA Subie with a radiator in the engine compartment is a cheaper ticket to 150-170 hp. But this is NOT a $5,000 Type IV vs. Subie engines vs. $10,000 Type IV vs. $15,000 Type IV vs. Six Conversion vs. SBC thread

Giving up 20-40 horses to keep the original style of engine in the car seems a UT greasonable compromise. And surely one that can be accomplished for $5-6K -- a reasonable budget if not the generous one so many wish (but may never) have.



This is a thread to get an idea of what can a 914 owner get done for $5K.

So far, it seems two routes are emerging:

1. A top-end rebuild and "hottening"

2. A reasonably well done stocker with a little extra hp

There's plenty of room to expand on both!

Should I dump this thread and start one for each of the above?

pete

[John]

Just before my current adventure (3.2 conversion in process), I had priced out rebuilding a 2.0 back to stock with FI. I was going to do all the assembly work and had shopped around for good pricing. In the end, I was estimating $5-$6k in parts and machine work.

I was going to send my heads to Len Hoffman for a total rebuild (included in my pricing), I was going to have a local machine shop do my case, connecting rods, and crank.

When I added it all up, and was discussing this with my wife, she asked why not put that money toward a 3.2 conversion (my long term goal). There it was. Easy decision. The very next day, I started shopping for the 3.2......

So, in my opinion, to rebuild a STOCK 2.0 with quality components and to get a decent machine shop to align bore the case, recondition the crank and rods, it will more than likely cost between $5-$6k (not including assembly labor).

I am positive that one could be slapped together for less, but one will end up with just that (one that is slapped together).


I completely agree with Mr. Raby's pricing as he is trying to do this for a living. Time, experience, and quality cost money.

Just my $0.02

[J P Stein]

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Nov 29 2005, 09:00 PM)

No question that an NA Subie with a radiator in the engine compartment is a cheaper ticket to 150-170 hp. BUT giving up 20-40 horses to keep the original style of engine in the car seems a reasonable compromise. And sure one that can be accomplished for $5-6K -- a reasonable budget if not the generous one so many wish (but may never) have. pete

I have the records of my 914 back to the day it was purchased, including the owners manual all stamped off up to about 90K miles....when the 2.0L was rebuilt by a dealer.
When it had 130K miles, I took it out. Compression was down in one hole to 80 psi, both heads were cracked as it turned out. 5-6 k into a rebuild is throwing good money after bad.
....unless you have a CW fetish. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[horizontally-opposed]

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 29 2005, 09:23 PM)

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Nov 29 2005, 09:00 PM) No question that an NA Subie with a radiator in the engine compartment is a cheaper ticket to 150-170 hp. BUT giving up 20-40 horses to keep the original style of engine in the car seems a reasonable compromise. And sure one that can be accomplished for $5-6K -- a reasonable budget if not the generous one so many wish (but may never) have. pete I have the records of my 914 back to the day it was purchased, including the owners manual all stamped off up to about 90K miles....when the 2.0L was rebuilt by a dealer. When it had 130K miles, I took it out. Compression was down in one hole to 80 psi, both heads were cracked as it turned out. 5-6 k into a rebuild is throwing good money after bad. ....unless you have a CW fetish. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

I dunno...

The rebuilt motor in my 1973 914 has well over 100,000 miles on it and starts every time on the first try. Runs well, pulls cleanly, and does the job.

It's just boring with (I'm guessing) 80-90 hp.

I can't say that spending $5-6K to get the above results -- with hopefully some more power -- is a bad move. Whatever someone spent to build my motor back in 1983-85 sure seems like a good value to me now. I am guessing it was equivalent to $4-5K in today's money. And yes, time and mileage means it will a tougher job this time around.

That said, we seem to be back to Raby, and I am back to giving up and deleting this thread. This obviously can't be discussed -- and I would think engines within reason are of a LOT of interest to 914clubbers who DON'T want a six or an SBC or a Subie.

I also don't think the answer is to throw up our hands and say "well, convert it or spend $15K or just go ahead and throw the whole car away."

But I guess I think wrong...

pete

[Mark Henry]

Wouldn't touch this on Jake's thread because I respect him.

I can do engines cheaper, but there is the border hassles.

My labour rate right now is $55.per hr Canadian...so that’s around $47 USD.

I did laugh at the other threads prices, not because I could come in cheaper (I can) but for that level of build (bells and whistles) $11000 was a pipe dream. There's no way around the parts...you want to play you have to pay. Not to mention the fact that I won't do a build like this for a "stock build" labour rate, lets face it when I rev up a big buck engine on the stand one fuck-up and I lose big money.

The other point that made me laugh was feature creep...I've lost many a job because of this. Some guy’s think once we have a deal that I'll throw in a bunch of extras at cost and for free labour.
To be frank I usually lose these kinds of jobs because I just say no…some guys have insulted me at this point and have been told to piss off.
Luckily at this time in my life I don't need the work...If I don't like the job (or the person) I can and will say no.

Once you start down the high performance road prices begin to clime and cheaping out on the valve train can be fatal. Sure it will last long enough to cover my ass, but it is false economy.

I will use some of the customer’s parts but they MUST past my inspection or forget it. I will not compromise the build.
I.E. a guy brought me a melling pump, scat lifters, a mystery cam (huge lift to boot) and I told him it was all junk. He bailed and I was glad for it.


I have an excellent machinist but he tends to be slow, I also take my time.
I will not be rushed through my builds, not to mention you will have several builds in front of yours. Waiting to the last moment will cost you the season...too bad.

One member here (who races) didn't like this fact, my timeline wasn't to his liking. So he got his own parts 78X96mm and built it himself. He called me about an overheating problem (wanted to pick my brain) I said “sorry talk to the builder”.
That engine blew up after a few races.
He came back...still didn't like my timeline and I think he's going to try it again...I wish him the best of luck...I'm also glad he's not my customer.

Also one dude (bug guy) tried to do an end run around my profits (after picking my brain) by getting his own parts. It was big build with 103 nickies. He asked when we could start putting it together, I told him “when ever you like because I’m not building it”…he was speechless.

I have done rebuilds for under 2k (i.e. Ray Warren on this club) it got new bearings, gaskets, seals, rings and a valve job. His heads had no issues except for exhaust guides, I only polished his crank and replaced one used cylinder. His cam was in spec, polished and new lifters were used. So far he’s happy.

An average “proper” build would be more like 4k so say around $3400 USD. Could be more if your heads are crap.

I would want to check all my figures before I started throwing around numbers for the hi-po builds. Powdercoating, etc. can also be done for good prices.
I have many cores if an exchange is OK, but you would have to send your heads to me, as I have no idea if yours are OK or need major work.

But there’s still that border problem.

[Porsche Rescue]

Keep trying Pete. It is a valid question and the combined wisdom of this group needs to find an answer(s).
A few years ago I bought a 2.0 which had been completely rebuilt by a local air cooled VW place in 1984. Included carb. appropriate cam and Euro. P&C's. Engine sat dry from '84 until 02. It now has about 3500 miles on it.
Total bill was $1400! That is about $2600 in '05 dollars. Engine rebuilding has obviously gone up!
By the way, I called that shop after I bought the engine to try to learn what cam was in it. They could tell me nothing and worked only on water cooled VW's.

[ThinAir]

I just finished my rebuild in June. My goal was to build the "ultimate stock 2.0L Type IV 914 engine" - one that would keep the stock D-Jet, would not leak oil, would have a slight boost in horsepower, and would last as close to forever as possible.

This meant using the following major parts/work by others:
Euro flat-top pistons & cylinders $400 from a club member
D. Elgin Racing Cams 330-1 cam with matching lifters $400
Head work $1100
Case machining, gasket sets & stuff $735

I just added up the receipts for the first time and I came up with about $2800 for parts and labor that I did not do myself. My fat fingers had a hard time on the calculator and I may have missed some receipts so I'm guessing that I'm actually in for about $3200. That's for every nut, washer, can of paint, gasket set, 10 different sealants, etc, including the tubing and stuff for relocating the fuel pump to the front (since I had the engine out), the syringe for cc-ing the heads, and the rental for a dial indicator gauge.

I built the engine myself. This is partially because I could not afford to have someone else do it for me, but mostly because I just wanted to do it myself. So I paid folks to do stuff that I couldn't do and did everything myself that I could.

The result is an engine that after 3700 miles has not dripped even one drop of oil and has performed exactly like I have wanted in every way. My only disappointment was that I wanted to still use 87 octane fuel, but after 500 miles I was getting run-on after shutting off the ignition and some testing has shown that I need to run 89 octane. The compression was calculated to be 8.1:1, but I wonder if it is a tad higher. Had I known that I was crossing that line from 87 to 89 I could have bumped up the compression a little more and gotten some more HP, but I'm not going to complain.

I will say that regardless of cost, I could not have done the rebuild without Jake's Type IV video, his advice when buying cylinder shims to adjust the deck height, and the collective knowledge of the folks on this site. I've done a lot of Type 1's since 1980, but this was my first Type IV where I didn't pay someone to build the long-block. I was very nervous about it, took it very slowly and carefully, and am very pleased with the result.

[rick 918-S]

I went back and re-read my first post and changed the wording. I'm moving forward I hope. nuf said

Pete, I like your idea and your comments. I hope I haven't rubbed you the wrong way here. I think your question is valid. I was going to start a simaler thread myself tonight.


I will tell you honestly before you posted this thread today I was looking into the cost thing for the type IV.

I agree that the stock motor is less than thrilling. that's what started my whole conversion. I also agree that 125-150 hp is do-able. This engine has been built for longer than some members here have been alive. The $ 5000.00 number may be tight. Lets debate it.

We need a real world test engine. An average engine in running condition with no real issues. I'm talking typical stuff, low compression, cracked heads, in need of a fresh cam, etc. Then we'll see what can be done on a budget.

I'm looking forward to all the new information as things start to form here. Please don't delete the thread.

Maybe we should put up some cash as a club and donate it to Pete. He can get his engine rebuilt based on a proven formula and do a write up in Excellence on the whole thing.

914 power on a budget. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

[J P Stein]

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Nov 29 2005, 09:40 PM)

I also don't think the answer is to throw up our hands and say "well, convert it or spend $15K or just go ahead and throw the whole car away." But I guess I think wrong... pete

Hay, now don't be gettin' all pissy.(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) This is a discussion, not an arguement.
I stated my opinion and it's mine.

I have no huge attachment to the 914 in general. I'm a car guy
and just kinda fell into the 914 gig......I had no idea I was gonna spend a pee pot fulla money & time on the thing when it all started.

At the time, it was a summer driver.
I was faced with an engine that was tired and went thru the situation that you have presented. I didn't "throw the whole car away" but went a different direction.

I did my research as to what to do about it. I looked first at the T-4.....this was in 96-97. This was (for me) pre-Internet. Information was damn scarce .....except in Bug mags which was enuff to turn anyone off. Did some phone callin'. Read what your Mr. Anderson had to say. Read your mag....what little there was about T-4s. Read Vols 4 thru 8 of upfixen'....became a not T-4 guy. These things happen.

So, my conclusion was different than yours. That is what makes life interesting

[lagunero]

My 2056;
long block 500
jake raby parts 1600 (Mallory dist,rods,96KB pist, rings, FF oil pump, cam/gear, gasket kit, springs n stuff, bearings,lifters, 911 clutch, PressPlate....)
rimco mach. work 900 (heads, SS values, tap case, align bore, liten flyw.....)
weber 40 idf (used) 350
rebuild carbs and extra guts 300 (I well overpaid)
cb perf. linkage n stuff 350
accel cable 40
mocal oil cooler n thermostat 180
AN lines n fittings 120
magnecor wires 45
rotary fuel pump and fuel lines 125
flowers for my wife 60
=4630 so far on this list
extras like muffler, ceramic lifters, Pcoat, etc. added about 1200 to my bill. DIY labor. you can build for less but I didn't try.
110-120 HP?
60K life?

[messix]

how about me? i have a 120K mile original motor 1.8 doesn't smoke, leak and starts well. how about the club donate to rebuild to a L-jet compatible up grade? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wavey.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smiley_notworthy.gif)