The $5k Engine, It's real. Options

[jetboy]

Im just curious, if you can put together (basically) the 2056 for 5g's, why not offer a 2270 or 2316? If your motor is about 2g over the kit offered, then maybe put 3g over a 2316 build (around 8000). I would certainly jump on a 160-170hp motor for 8000 built nice. ahhh... dreams.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[Jake Raby]

The answer to this question is simple..

The bigger engines REQUIRE the time and preparation (and design) that demands the extra cost.

If I sold a kit to Mark for a 2270, for him to make a dime from it, the cost would be near the same as the cost for my complete engine.

There are too many risks associated with creating performance "longblocks" of increased displacement and letting the installer be responsible for the set up.

The 2056 and 1911 kits are very easy to work with and this is why those engines are offered.

Giving an inexperienced person a 2270 in longblock form would be like handing a grendae to a 3 year old- its only a matter of time before something goes boom! Things going BOOM are not good for mark and certainly are devestating for me- I reduce the chances of these things as much as possible, thats why I only build Turn Key complete engines 100% dyno tuned.

IF someone wants a 2270 complete from Mark, based on one of my kits, he and I will talk. One thing is for certain, it still won't be "cheap".

[JmuRiz]

If I understand correctly, the 2056 is more of a drop-in upgrade and the larger engines require clearencing of the block and different (more $) cranks etc.
Like they say, the more HP you want the more money it'll cost, exponentially...so the 125hp for $5k is the best bang for the buck type IV engine out there.

[jetboy]

The answer to this question is simple..

The bigger engines REQUIRE the time and preparation (and design) that demands the extra cost.

If I sold a kit to Mark for a 2270, for him to make a dime from it, the cost would be near the same as the cost for my complete engine.

There are too many risks associated with creating performance "longblocks" of increased displacement and letting the installer be responsible for the set up.

The 2056 and 1911 kits are very easy to work with and this is why those engines are offered.

Giving an inexperienced person a 2270 in longblock form would be like handing a grendae to a 3 year old- its only a matter of time before something goes boom! Things going BOOM are not good for mark and certainly are devestating for me- I reduce the chances of these things as much as possible, thats why I only build Turn Key complete engines 100% dyno tuned.

IF someone wants a 2270 complete from Mark, based on one of my kits, he and I will talk. One thing is for certain, it still won't be "cheap".

According to your website it says, "Now you can build your own 2270cc kit with confidence- Just like we do here! The 2270cc kit has all of the same features as our other engine kits and is sold complete. This kit goes together very easily, just like a mild stroker Type I"

So, does that mean Mark is experienced enough to put on of these together? When the words "goes together very easily" are used, what experience level must you be in order to actually put this together? Im just not understanding the reason to buy a 2270 kit if it requires an easy charge of around 5-7000 (bringing it close to your price for a complete engine). Even here the site says, "Benefit from our years of development with this highly refined, easy to assemble and easy to set up and tune engine by purchasing your 2270 engine kit from the Type 4 Store". Im not sure if simply paying 5000+ for assembly can be classified as easy.

Sorry for jumping slightly OT, just trying to figure out an actually price comparison between equal /4 and /6 engines and ease to maintain. If a weekend mechanic cant easily build an engine, then the troubleshooting and repair work must be done by an experienced shop which now increases the price and benifits of remaining with the /4 and getting great power from it.

[Mueller]

QUOTE

Sorry for jumping slightly OT, just trying to figure out an actually price comparison between equal /4 and /6 engines and ease to maintain. If a weekend mechanic cant easily build an engine, then the troubleshooting and repair work must be done by an experienced shop which now increases the price and benifits of remaining with the /4 and getting great power from it.

/4 motor: bolt right in, use all stock components, can upgrade parts at your leisure.....with this deal you are looking at $1250 per cylinder


/6 motor: for a fair comparison, you'd have to rebuild the engine at a cost of $1000 to $1500 per cylinder ($6K to $9K) and then add the thousands of dollars for the conversion.

the engine offer from Mark is for people that do not want to build the motor or feel they cannot build it, even thou with enough instruction anyone should be able to build it yet they choose not to....nothing wrong with letting someone else deal with the assembly and procuring all the parts needed........

[jetboy]

the engine offer from Mark is for people that do not want to build the motor or feel they cannot build it, even thou with enough instruction anyone should be able to build it yet they choose not to....nothing wrong with letting someone else deal with the assembly and procuring all the parts needed........

Thats almost directly my point. If Mark is decent enough builder to make the 2056, then (according to the aircooled site listing the 2317 build as EASY) it would seem like an $3000 on top of the purchase of a 2270 kit at about $4700 and the 2316 kit @ $4800(brings it to about 8000). The 2056 kit is about $3200 (labor added for complete build $1800), so, for about an additional $1500 in parts and an additional $3200 for complete build i would pay that.

I understand that Mark is doing a service for those of us who probably dont want to tackle an engine build and i certainly thank him for that. I was just curious if he would be willing to put together a larger package for those of us who would like 150+hp that one of the 2270 or 2317 kits would provide. And since the website said the kit goes together easily, then i didnt think think it was an issue until Jake said that only experienced ppl should put this kit together (this was after i asked if Mark had thought about it).

My other point was, if these larger kits are so difficult to just assemble (i can only assume the machine work is included with the kit) then if anything failed, would you need to be a master mechanic to repair? Specialty parts and price for maintaining would then even out between the supposedly more expensive /6.

I understand the price difference about a conversion, but, once its done you dont have to do it again. You can even start out with a 2.4 /6 (even in T trim is 140hp) and find one for about $2500-3000. Possible full rebuild (which would probably change to E, S, or even 2.5) might be around 8000. So, for around 9-11,000 bucks you have a reliable engine with power and that you can probably work on and not be considered a 3yr old with a handgrenade.

Ok, was a long post, i just wanted to know if Mark was able to look at a bigger kit for some who would like an option for more power without going /6 (and not having to pay 12,000+ whatever MIGHT be added later plus a estimated 10month wait.) That was all. If Jake says Mark cant put the 2317 together for about $3200, then i guess the /6 rebuild costs might be closer than one thinks.

[McMark]

As far as adding a 2270 to my line-up: Jake and I have talked about it. But decided that it was best left for the future. If things go well with our relationship and the 2056/1911 engines are selling well then we might add a 2270 or 2316 to the line-up. Right now I'm very content with how things are going. I don't want to bite off more than I can chew.

Pertaining to me building larger motors: I am available for this and it will be handled on a case by case basis. If you're interested in this contact me privately and we'll talk about what it's going to take. There is a lot more checking and measuring to be done on a 2270 build. So it wouldn't be as easy as taking the labor price of a 2056 and tacking it onto a 2270 kit price. Again, if you're interested in this, I'm willing to talk it over via PM/email.

[jetboy]

Cant argue with that. Once again, thnx for the service you are providing to this community McMark. Just a bump this time for a great option for Teeners.

[Jake Raby]

Sure Mark can build a 2270 or 2316 with my kit easily, heck I have had a 15 year old do it with no adult assistance!

I HAVE to be more of a player with the bigger engines and I won't stand for them to be assembled in anything less than 100% complete status due to the impacts that parts selection has on their performance.

When a customer buys a kit from me 2270cc or larger I mandate certain parts to be used to attain the primary objective of the baseline engine I created the kit from- it's called being comprehensive.

The biggest nightmare for me (and Mark) would be an individual that gets a 2316 engine as a longblock from Mark based on my kit and installs restrictive exhaust, huge carbs and screws the tuning up. This engine will more than likely be absolutely un-tunable, run like shit and run hot while getting about 10 MPG. This person would then mis-inform pople that this was a "Raby engine" when it was not and I would catch flack.

attaining my reputation was not easy and retaining it is even more difficult. I have to take every step known to man to hold individuals hands through kit processes to keep negative things from happening like this.

Now, with the mandate of 2270 and 2316cc engines being built complete by Mark it will throw them right into the same category as my engines in the cost department- so you may as well buy it from me and get the added benefits.
there is much more to this than you guys see on the outside, and it's not as easy as "Making it simple and cheap for the buyer".

If it was about simple and cheap I'd be building nothing but longblocks, doing 4X as many engines per year and not giving a damn about them when they left.
Thats not the case.

[Grimstead]

Time for the $5K (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/icon_bump.gif)

I just put my name on the dotted line. Now I just need to finish everything and make sure the car is ready when Mark is done with his magic. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Thanks Mark! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smiley_notworthy.gif)

[SirAndy]

I just put my name on the dotted line

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[MikeP]

Looks like a great mid range power option. Just for the record, and believe me I found out the hard way, there is nothing "cheap" about a V8 / V6 option. I've only heard of one person that got it done for the cost of the kit being offered, and that isn't counting dollar one for labor which is SUBSTANTIALLY more than this option.

[timmcgraw67]

Yet again this group has proven that you can literally give them EXACTLY what they want for the price they want and they still won't open their wallet- not even an ounce!

The only way this was going to work for Mark, or myself was with volume sales and its pretty apparent that the volume won't be worth the effort we (Mark and I) have already put into it.

I'm willing to open my wallet if you are willing to take payments. LOL. After all I'm 19 w/ more bills than the average person ehhhhh that's and understatement at that.

[McMark]

Depends on the size of the payments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) PM me.

[KaptKaos]

Mark,

I have a few questions:

Will the 2056 use the next gen heads from Jake? If so, what do those do to the output? If not, what heads do you use?

Does the engine or kit come with new tin? If not, can stock 1.7 tin be used or modified? If not, what is the cost of replacement tin?

I bought some weber 44s from a member. Can those be used with the 2056? If so, what jets, etc.. are needed? If not, what are the alternatives?

Thanks in advance for your help with this.

- Joe

[McMark]

Will the 2056 use the next gen heads from Jake? If so, what do those do to the output? If not, what heads do you use?

I rebuild the heads you send me. I'm talking with Jake to see about offering the new heads. I can already see why he's not rebuilding heads anymore. It's a PITA to do right and a ton of work. 1.8 heads will work fine, 2.0 heads will work fine, either one is rebuilt, welded if necessary, and all new parts put in.

Does the engine or kit come with new tin? If not, can stock 1.7 tin be used or modified? If not, what is the cost of replacement tin?

These engines are only a long block. So I build the engine, but nothing is bolted to it. So tin is not included. 1.7 tin is necessary if you send 1.7, 1.8 or bus 2.0 heads. 2.0 tin is necessary if you go with 914 2.0 heads. 1.7 tin can be modified, but you pay me my standard shop rate for the work. Replacement tin would need to be sourced by you. The only tin pieces I need from you are the ones that go under the heads. Those must be installed before the pushrods and can't be installed once everything is buttoned up.

I bought some weber 44s from a member. Can those be used with the 2056? If so, what jets, etc.. are needed? If not, what are the alternatives?

I have all the jetting information for carburetors. 44s will work fine (I previously thought that 44s were a little large, but have since been corrected).

[KaptKaos]

Thanks for the response Mark. I have a few follow up questions:

Will the 2056 use the next gen heads from Jake? If so, what do those do to the output? If not, what heads do you use?

I rebuild the heads you send me. I'm talking with Jake to see about offering the new heads. I can already see why he's not rebuilding heads anymore. It's a PITA to do right and a ton of work. 1.8 heads will work fine, 2.0 heads will work fine, either one is rebuilt, welded if necessary, and all new parts put in.

From the article in Hot VWs and talking to Jake, it seems that the new heads are the way to go. From what Jake said, price wise, its a better deal for the new heads as the costs to fix old ones is about the same as the new ones, assuming you needed to buy new heads. If this is the case, then how does the performance of the 2056 change with the new heads? How different, if any, is the cost?


New question:

What parts are needed from a 1.7 or 1.8 motor for the 2056? I think I have read that the 1.7 rockers are used, but what else?

Thanks for answering these questions, I am a few months from being in a position to order a motor, but we'll see how this year goes.

Thanks again,
Joe

[Grimstead]

Hi Joe,
Just as an FYI, I will have my 5k engine running by then & you can check it out if you want (I’ve already had a few people down here ask to see it when ready). If everything goes how I’m hoping, I expect this engine to fit my needs perfectly.

As for the extra/core parts you’ll need, when all is said and done I can point you in the right direction if you are interested (learning from my trial & error).

Bill
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[KaptKaos]

Thanks Bill. I will certainly take you up on that offer.

[McMark]

The new heads are definitely an option. I still need to get exact pricing, but I think the engine with new heads would be around $6000. The heads at this price point are basically 914 2.0 head replicas. So I expect power would be about the same, maybe a small gain. I haven't gotten numbers from Jake yet, so I don't know for sure.

I've learned as I've built this first batch of motors that aside from the cores listed in the first post of this thread (check that out) I need the following items to be reused on your motor.
__ Case
__ Taco Plate + O-Ring
__ Oil Filter Console
__ Oil Bypass Springs/Pistons
__ Drain Plug
__ Distributor Drive Gear + Special Washer
__ Under Cylinder Engine Tin
__ Oil Cooler
__ Oil Cooler Thick Washers
__ Fan Mount + Bolts
__ Oil Baffle + Seals (OPTIONAL)
__ Oil Pressure Switch OR Pressure Sender
__ Oil Filler + Bail
__ Head Nuts + Washers
__ Through Bolts
__ Oil Pickup
__ Sump Cover
__ Endplay Shims
__ Distributor Clamp
__ Valve Covers + Bails
__ Rocker Shafts
__ Rocker Shaft Mounts

This has been a huge endeavor for me and has taken awhile to get figured out. As future orders come in, things will get much more smooth. My first customers have been very patient and I thank them immensely.