OT: State of licensing in the US, How hard is it where you live? Options

[lapuwali]

Howard's thread about the consequences of not teaching teens how to drive got me wondering.

I went through the whole driver training ritual in 1980, so I have no idea what the current state of driver training is in the US. Texas (where I learned) had a pretty good program. Run in the high school, mandatory, with both driving classes, textbook classes, and an interesting interactive movie.

I'm told that most high schools don't have driver's ed anymore, due to cost-cutting. Is this true nationwide, or only here in California? Is it even true in all of California? I see "Student Driver" cars from time to time (saw one this morning), and I'm sure it's not mandatory. I presume this is strictly a private, voluntary thing?

I also know Europe is much stricter than here. I'm familiar with the UK testing system, how's the system in Germany (Andy?), or Austria (Gustl?), or the Netherlands (Yaroooon?).

Getting anyone to pay for better training in the US is probably politically impossible, though it strikes me that perhaps having the insurance companies help out here by offering a substantial discount from the usual outrageous teen driver rates for those teens who complete an accredited course sounds sensible to me.

[TimT]

I have no idea how easy it is to get a license now in NY, but when I got my license in 1977 it was pitifully easy to get. I knew how to drive before I ever set foot in the Drivers Ed class. My father taught me how to drive in empty parking lots. Then after getting my learners permit I drove under my fathers supervision often until I took the state driving test and passed.


The driver ed classes were a joke to me since I already knew the rules of the road, and car control.

I imagine, at least here in NY that getting your drivers license is quite easy still.

[Mark Henry]

Tim..now I know about how old you are...Got my license about the same time.

Back then at 16yrs/old you got a "365" (as in days) and all you needed was a real easy multiple-choice test, vision test and licensed driver beside you.
Then anytime you could take the final driven test.
DE wasn't required but it was a high school option, you pay, small insurance discount.

Now there is a one-year probation on your final that includes either no passengers (or is it none at night?), a 0.00 alcohol level, no demerits points and no 400 series highways. I believe the tests are a bit harder but still too easy.
I still think DE isn't required, don't know if they offer it in high school, but there's way more driving schools. Most offer an insurance discount.


I think that EVERONE should have a proper DE and skid school training

[rpmmaxxed]

It seems to be getting harder and harder in california. Stricter laws, now passed, making kids wait until they are 18 to get there license, is one that sticks out.

Beleive it or not, teens passing their behind the wheel test on the first try is becoming more and more rare. Unsure if its a revenue issue, but DMV "statistics" show that 48% more teens fail the first time, and blame it on not paying attention during Drivers Ed classes.

Personally, I beleive that it is a revenue issue.

I passed my drivers test the 3rd, and last possible time without waiting 6 months.

From a completely bogus move by my "instructor" of pulling the ebrake, to getting captain PMS 2nd time. all 3 trys were within 2 months.

Tests are done in "errors" now, I think this is how they have always been. Miss 15"errors" you fail. any "critical" error, results in automatic failure.

The pulling of the ebrake was a critical error(only point deduction), and that was the only thing that kept me from passing the first time. 2ND test, instructor marked me off for 19 different errors, and 3 critical errors. After verbally confirming that she has failed 18 other people, I beleive that the DMV is in fact jumping its revenue.

All said and done, I passed and received my license my 3rd try, with zero errors marked off.

[lapuwali]

Pulling on the handbrake, that's good. Do they do it in mid-turn? I don't think that's bogus at all, I think it's brilliant. Teach skid control and to react well to sudden surprises.

[TimT]

QUOTE

Pulling on the handbrake, that's good.

Id smack that a**hole right in the head.. I would have done it years ago and Id do it today.. right after I got control of the car.

[Cap'n Krusty]

SHAMEFULLY, NO, CRIMINALLY easy to get a license here in California. That's why we have so many "accidents", which aren't accidents at all, they're incompetence personified, at best, criminal negligence in most cases! The Cap'n

[jonwatts]

Make it harder to get a license and make the penalties higher when you break the law. Personally I'd like to see huge fines for safety related infractions, like $1000 for running a red light. Seems people out here are incredibly bad at obeying that one.

[TimT]

QUOTE

like $1000 for running a red light

werd (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

Here on Lawn Guyland I often count 5 cars through the intersection after the light goes red. even if the fine is only $100.... JUST ENFORCE IT..

BTW... my bro is a Police Officer, and some significant people in my life are in law enforcement....above comment is not a knock on them at all

[jd74914]

I'm 17 and got my license 5mos after my permit. Permit test was hard, lots of technical alcohol stuff I never knew. I took drivers ed, its optional here, but if you don't take it you have to take a 4hr (IIRC) drug and alcohol class at the DMV.

Drivers ed taught some technical stuff from the books, but the driving part was bogus. It helped the guy that always drove after me, who sucked, but I have known how to drive stick since I was 8 (we have a large free field to drive in), so that part is pretty simple. They did make me drive through Hartford at rush hour, which is about as bad as it gets in CT, and most parts of MA (Boston's just different).

Very few people I know have failed their tests, and some of them can't drive at all. ts kinda scary when they are behind you actually. The other problem I see alot is people driving drunk. Comming home at 1 or 2am you see cars that are doing crazy stuff once in a while (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

Actually, all of the "good" drivers I know have done like I was taught, and have learned how to drive off road or practiced car control stuff in a big parking lot, or both. I agree with some of the other comments that spinning in a parking lot is a rather humbling experience. I also agree with Tim, if someone pulled the e brake when I was driving I would get control of the car and kill them once I stopped (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ar15.gif)

Anyways, long winded explanation, hope that answers the question. BTW: I've had my license for 15mos and have not hit anything, gone offroad at all, and have only one been almost hit and that time wasn't my fault (It was in a really dark 4way intersection with lights, I had the green left arrow, some a**hole without lights on ran through a red light and alomst hit me head on (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/WTF.gif) I hit the gas hard once I saw him and he just kept going (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

[rpmmaxxed]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 4 2006, 05:42 PM)

Pulling on the handbrake, that's good.  Do they do it in mid-turn?  I don't think that's bogus at all, I think it's brilliant.  Teach skid control and to react well to sudden surprises.

It was completely un-called for.

I stopped at an intersection to turn right on a red light. I stopped, observed traffic, noone was turning left(the direction where they would be coming towards me), and only a couple cars going straight. Well, some jackass from the far right lane across the intersection cuts lanes mid intersection, and turns left right in front of me as I started to turn. Just as I go to hit the brakes, he instructor spastically pulls the ebrake, and says"should have been paying more attention, you did not even see that truck, better luck next time" (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/WTF.gif)

I was upset that I failed the test, but knew that I could retake in a few weeks, no biggy. I was more pissed that he pulled the E-brake in a 2 week old new Matrix XR-S. Not a super special car by any means, but its nice to treat new cars with respect...(specially since it was my parents first showroom NEW CAR in years. Bought it and our Jeep Liberty cash within a couple months to replace a '91 S-10(my old truck) and a '94 honda Accord EX.

[dmenche914]

Get the illegals off the road would be a good start, they tend to drive bad, flee from accidents ,and have no insurance (and no assets) Be sure you have plenty of un-insured motorist protection (I bought a $100,000 unisured accident policy and used every penny on it, when the bitch hit me and totaled my 914 and resulted in surgury to repair my arm.) She told me I was the third car she had rear ended! Her and her fuckin big assed SUV. Good gawd, she should have been restricted to an open top golf cart after her second "accident" not driving a big tank SUV (in which she was not injured.)

Maybe make it a law, if you cause an accident you get de-rated to a smaller less powerful car for a certain time period as punishment. Maybe remove the seat belts, make the idiot feel vulnerable, rather than protected in their big 'tanks"

Her excuse to me was she spilled her soda, and reached down to pick it up, on the expressway, yeah, smart. (and she was an adult, not a kid driver.)

So we all end up paying for the un-insured or under insured one way or the other.

Also wish the cops would start citing tailgaters, I see it all the time, yet never hear of them tickets being given out.

[ClayPerrine]

You want to hear a really good one........


Texas lets 16 year olds take drivers ed, then they are given a form to take to the Department of Public Safety offices. Once there, they just wait in line to get their license picture taken. NO ON THE ROAD DRIVING TEST REQUIRED!!!!

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/WTF.gif)

There are no restrictions on the licenses at all. They can take any road at any time.


It really pisses me off. When I got my license, we had to take a driving test with a state trooper sitting next to you. I used a full sized Chevy van with no windows in the back, and I parallel parked it on the first try.

The cop was so impressed he shortened up the rest of the test.

[Hawktel]

In Oregon, '87.

I took the test. you had to get 75 out of 100 points on the driving. And pass the written and you was considered safe for the road. We didn't have to have any instruction you that was manditory.

I'd been driving for 2 years already, Mostly in my rural area. My grand pa owned a orchard, I learned to drive his old John Deer when I was 10.

I did the test. I california'ed a stop sign, and he took 25 points for that. When we got to the DMV, he opened the car door and checked where I was in the lines, before he passed me.

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jan 4 2006, 03:53 PM)

I also know Europe is much stricter than here. I'm familiar with the UK testing system, how's the system in Germany (Andy?), or Austria (Gustl?), or the Netherlands (Yaroooon?).

the system here in CA is a joke. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/icon8.gif)

i don't know about the rest of the country ...


first, they did not take my german drivers license into account.
20 years of accident free driving, gone, out the door, non-existent.
actually, that might not be a bad thing in general.
who knows what driving is like in a country like germany, compared to CA.
after all, they might still be using ox carriages!!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)


here's what i had to do to get a CA drivers license ...

1. show up with a car.
i didn't have my own car, so i just rented one from enterprise. no problem ...

2. take written test.
i didn't even bother to *practice* as i had already heard about the written test from friends. went in and filled it out.
the guy (who barely spoke english) put his little card with the markers for the right answers over my test 3 times. he obviously thought he had made a mistake.
0 (zero) errors on my written test. he was clearly flabbergasted ...

3. driving test.
this was the fun part. well, for me anyways.
the *tester* was holding on for dear life! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)
he was scribbling down notes on his form-sheet...
after we got back to the DMV he shook my hand and congratulated me to my new CA drivers license.
one piece of advice he had, he said. i passed only by one point, barely, he concluded.
he asked me if i wanted to keep a copy of his form-sheet. as a souvenir.
turned out, i passed all test, except that next to almost each of the items, he had written "too fast!" ...

well, that's my story ...

waaaaaay too easy and cheap to get a license here, i'm afraid ...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif) Andy

[dmenche914]

Don't know who started it, but a friend of mine moved to Germany, his California license was no good over there for getting a German License, so he did as his company (he moved becuase of his job) told him, and before he left, got an Arizona license. (had to turn in his Calif. license to Arizona DMV)

Germany accepts an Arizona License, but not a California one.

So is it tit for tat between germany and california???


All the license requirement in the world don't stop dumb fucks from driving and not paying attention. You can teach someone to park, use the mirrors, signal, all the rules of the road, and emplore them to pay attention, but it matters not some will never listen. I see no need for the highly restricted laws in California (compared to years ago) that prevent full driving rights until 18 years old.

Maybe fear would work better, put folks in big tank cars, make them so quite on the inside and soft riding that you loose concept of the speed, ad power steering, and an automatic, and you need hardly any effort to drive. Ad a big assed sound system, and ipod, and all the shit and soon it doesn't for some folks even seem like your driving.

I learned to drive in a 1700 lbs 61 Bug, with 40 HP, I learned to respect the big truck (the wind would moe my car as they passed) I felt the speed,(even thought thecar was slow, even 55 mph seemed fast.

I once and a while drove other fancy automatic cars, reall easy to forget you in a moving car at that point.

Cars these days really isolate the driver from the road conditions, even "small: cars today are heavy.

No a driving is not cheap in calinazifornia, the DMV is constantly raping folks of their hard earned dough. its a big money maker for the state, and a convoluted mess. (hell just waiting at the DMV ought to earn you a purple heart.)

[watsonrx13]

My recommendation for licensing dirvers is to require everyone drive a motorcycle, under 500cc, for the first two years. They won't be distracted with a cell phone, radio, other passengers... Learn how to slow down in the rain/snow/sleet....If they survive/live after that they will respect everyone else on the road.... It'll help weed out the idiots.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mad.gif)

-- Rob

[Porcharu]

Like Andy said - it is way to easy to get a licence here in Kalifornia. Pick your language you would like the test in or just use the "picture" test.
I had to take the written "exam" after I lost my wallet and needed a replacement exam. After taking all of 3 or 4 minutes the clerk graded it and informed me that I passed - barely - I looked at it and said no way did I miss that question your master is wrong. She used the wrong master, I aced the test. Lots of teenage girls around me were crying because they had failed - again.
I don't drive the 914 all that often because of the terrrible hyper aggressive drivers around here. I always notice how bad drivers are in the bay area when returning from a trip to Oregon - as soon as I hit highway 80 the assholes suddenly appear. When I brought my CNC mill home from Portland a few months ago I did not get cut off or tailgated (I'm towing a 7000 lb trailer with an 8000 lb. truck) until I hit highway 80.
People are just clueless about driving and the fact that what they do or don't do could kill them (preferable) or someone else.

[mudfoot76]

QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 5 2006, 11:14 AM)

Like Andy said - it is way to easy to get a licence here in Kalifornia. Pick your language you would like the test in or just use the "picture" test.

I don't believe that the Indiana DMV has translated our "test" into Spanish, but the English version is so easy you don't have to be literate to pass it (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) Knowing how easy it is, I am astounded that someone who fails the written portion is able to keep themselves breathing...

Lots of uninsured motorists out here too -- and not just the migrants. Which is doubly strange considering it is state law you show proof of insurance to register a vehicle??

We could eject all the illegals like previously mentioned, or convin$$e a politician to make the rules more difficult for earning a liscense, but I don't think that addresses the root cause of all the problems. To me, it seems that too many people believe they have been duly endowned with an inalienable right to drive when it actually is a privilidge. Not until that mindset is changed can we do anything about the other troubles. Not sure about Cali, but here if you get arrested for DUI, on your first offence your lisence is suspended for only 30 days!! We have no vehicle inspections (those who have them mandatory may feel differently on this) to keep the junkers off the road. Just this morning, I had to avoid a muffler that fell of a POS on the interstate. Big trucks are driving around with tires that have more cord showing than tread. Monster trucks that have no bumpers and no functional brake or indicator lights.

It would be nice if the insurance companies, or DMV, would start an effort that would at least require new drivers to have some sort of road safety training. Also include how to use a tire pressure gauge, check oil/fluid levels, etc. Heck, the insurance companies could probably make huge piles of $$$$ charging for these sessions to all of their new driver customers (if the whole industry can agree amongst themselves).

Oh well, just my $.02 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

[horizontally-opposed]

It's true that California has changed the rules and now teenagers have to wait until they're 18 to drive. More recently, the 16 YOs who could get one had all kinds of restrictions. While I guess this solves some problems, it's hardly the right solution.

When I took my test in 1990, I didn't have to:

-Get on the freeway
-Parallel park

It was WAY too easy.

Insurance is a whole 'nuther matter -- as is enforcement -- but I think every driver should have to demonstrate comfort and skill while merging into a busy freeway and the ability to parallel park uphill in reverse between two cars with a stickshift. (Unless they are physically limited in some way.)

Wow, I'll tell you this view does not go over well at parties. (Nor do my views on SUVs exactly enliven them...)

But when I think about what we spend to clean up "accidents" (i.e. mistakes) plus the hidden costs of traffic (smog and lost time), I think an argument could be made for real performance testing at the DMV. Say a slick course or wet AX in government-supplied Taurus's or Malibus -- it wouldn't be cheap, but I bet it would save money in the long run.

And EVERYONE needs to do it. Get caught on the road without having passed the test, lose your car. Instantly. Hey, forget government-supplied beaters -- I think I just found another source for cars to bang up...

Of course, it will never happen.

pete