Paging Mueller, Bowlsby, Bleyseng and Jaroen Options

[Demick]

compared to the pics from Brad Anders' site:

(IMG:http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/manifo12.jpg)

His seem much larger and more pronounced. But maybe it's just the lighting.

Demick

[Bleyseng]

No, I have seen two styles or that one is a replacement one. The one in the BA pic is from a OEM unmolested unit.

I checked the outer screws size and its a 12mmx1.00thread pitch. Very fine threads

[r_towle]

so, where are we with this project?

Do we have a drawing yet?
Do we know the hardness of the material in question?

I talked to the berilium guy today and he can do it, but its all talk till he sees a drawing...better than my hand scetch (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Rich

[RustyWa]

QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 16 2006, 12:20 PM)

Now, how do we verify the actual material... Correct me if I am wrong...the patent documents do not declare the material??? Does anyone have any contacts at Bosch we could ask for a clear answer??

I more than likely can do the material composition test of the diaphram if it is still needed.

Where I work, we have a Niton Alloy Analyzer, which is a non-destructive, hand-held tester for alloy materials. It'll actually tell you the chemical composition of any alloy it tests.

Let me know.

[davep]

Do you need sample diaphragms? I have a fair number of cracked ones. One should not assume the material never changed.

[Bleyseng]

Great RustyWa,
I'll drop one off to you (OEM) whenever and pickup the Janbo too. Let me know....other than today as I am jetlagged out from coming back gistern.

Geoff
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

[RustyWa]

Great. Even a scrap piece about the size of a quarter will work.

Anytime after 5:30pm during the week is good for me. The weekends are pretty open as well. This week I have Friday off as well.

If it would work out easier, during the day, I can get everything together and my wife will be home.

Of course, I have no problem driving up to you this Friday or the weekend.

I also have that flywheel of yours that I never used.

[RustyWa]

Ok, did the marterial analysis on the OEM diaphram this morning using a Niton XL-II 800 handheld alloy analyzer.

I made three different scans of the sample piece I got from Geoff. The readings were as follows:

#1 - 99.78% Cu
#2 - 99.20% Cu
#3 - 99.39% Cu

No berillium. Supposedly anything between 98%-100% copper is considered pure.

The remainder of the 100% reading was a spattering of Al, Si Br, Phos Brz.

[nomore9one4]

QUOTE (Jenny @ Jan 12 2006, 09:00 AM)

bugger... the picture didn't take.

So did I ! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/av-943.gif)

[r_towle]

So,
its copper?
Is there a specific hardness that needs to be found?

Rich

[Mueller]

QUOTE (r_towle @ Feb 27 2006, 03:05 PM)

So, its copper? Is there a specific hardness that needs to be found? Rich

as I posted on his other thread.....


**********************

I still say it's BeCu......

Add your % findings to the % composition for second type.....

QUOTE

Beryllium Copper -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Overview Copper beryllium alloys are used for their high strength and good electrical and thermal conductivities. There are two groups of copper beryllium alloys, high strength alloys and high conductivity alloys. The wrought high strength alloys contain 1.6 to 2.0% beryllium and approximately 0.3% cobalt. The cast, high-strength alloys have beryllium concentrations up to 2.7%. The high conductivity alloys contain 0.2-0.7% beryllium and higher amounts of nickel and cobalt. These alloys are used in applications such as electronic connector contacts, electrical equipment such as switch and relay blades, control bearings, housings for magnetic sensing devices, non sparking applications, small springs, high speed plastic molds and resistance welding systems. Cast beryllium coppers are frequently used for plastic injection molds. The cast materials have high fluidity and can reproduce fine details in master patterns. Their high conductivity enables high production speed, while their good corrosion and oxidation resistance promotes long die life. The UNS designations for the wrought alloys are C17200 through C17400 and the cast alloys are C82000 through C82800. The high strength of the copper beryllium alloys is attained by age hardening or precipitation hardening. The age or precipitation hardening results from the precipitation of a beryllium containing phase from a supersaturated solid solution of mostly pure copper. The precipitation occurs during the slow cooling of the alloys because the solubility of beryllium in alpha copper decreases with decreasing temperature. Typically the alloys are rapidly cooled from the annealing treatment, so the beryllium remains in solid solution with the copper. Then the alloy is given a precipitation or age hardening treatment for an hour or more at a temperature between 200 and 460 C. Upon tempering, the beryllium containing phases, called beryllides, precipitate out of solution.

More BeCu info as well as pure copper and other copper alloys

[r_towle]

ok,
But, could we find a Copper alloy that has the same hardness charateristics as this diaphram? Obvious reason is that Mueller could make it in his garage...versus making it in a special room etc...

Does copper come in different hardness's?

Rich

[Demick]

I agree that pure copper seems like a very odd choice. Work hardening would seem to be a real problem with pure copper. BeCu would be a much better choice. I don't understand it, but I can't argue with the analyzer results.....

Demick

[Mueller]

QUOTE (RustyWa @ Feb 27 2006, 12:46 PM)

Ok, did the marterial analysis on the OEM diaphram this morning using a Niton XL-II 800 handheld alloy analyzer. I made three different scans of the sample piece I got from Geoff. The readings were as follows: #1 - 99.78% Cu #2 - 99.20% Cu #3 - 99.39% Cu No berillium. Supposedly anything between 98%-100% copper is considered pure. The remainder of the 100% reading was a spattering of Al, Si Br, Phos Brz.

unless I mistaken, that analyzer will not pickup Be according to the spec sheet...........(unless tested in a vacuum)

[Demick]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 27 2006, 04:35 PM)

unless I mistaken, that analyzer will not pickup Be according to the spec sheet...........(unless tested in a vacuum)

..good catch Mike.

[Demick]

Sorry for a very delayed response from me on this with relation to the drawing for the diaphragm. I have been extremely busy lately and didn't get to spend much time on it.

Jeff B. and I did have some offline discussions during this time. Originally, I had planned on designing the boss on the diaphragm so that it would attach to the diaphragm with a threaded nut. So I was going to try and source an appropriate sized nut to do this. But Jeff suggested that we just replicate the original design rather than trying for the nut approach. I'm fine with that.

But the diaphragm that Jeff sent me is a good one and he doesn't want it destroyed. And in the assembled state, it is very difficult for me to tell which parts are which in the pressed-together state. Here is what I wrote to Jeff regarding this:

With the idea of replicating the original, it is very difficult for me to tell how it was assembled without cutting one apart. There are 4 'steps' to the center boss where the retainer is installed. It is difficult for me to tell which part is what, and if the retainer is simply a retaining ring that has been pressed on, or if it is a part that is highly deformed when pressed on (as in, the retainer starts out as a ring, but ends up with a step in it).

Anyway, take a look at the images I have attached. This is one way it could have gone together. It involves four parts: the diaphragm, the boss, a washer, and the retainer. In this case, the retainer is just pressed into place (not deformed).

Here is the exploded view I sent him:

[Demick]

And below is the assembled version.

Maybe Geoff or Dave can send me a bad diaphragm (OK if it is already cut in half). That way, I will be able to replicate exactly the design the factory had for this.

Demick

[Bleyseng]

It is not a 3 piece unit but two pieces. The ring is held in place by the collar being mashed onto it at the step shown by the red arrow.

I can send you the other half piece I have sitting here on my desk. Send your address to me.

[r_towle]

A bump
I still have a company that will make the berillium part.

We need metal properties, and measurements on any drawings...

Rich

[Bleyseng]

yeah, what happened to this project? I keep getting requests for rebuild MPS's and I have very few good oem diaphrams to use.

RustyWA??? any further news? besides you selling your car... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)