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> "Water Cooled Valve Covers on a /4" ????, Muellers crazy idea of the week :)
Brian Mifsud
post Feb 15 2006, 01:24 PM
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(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hijacked.gif) Not to Hijack Mike threads. but .. .Peltier Coolers are extremely inefficient

ie. it take MORE energy to power them than the energy that they move...

So if you wanted to move 400 watts of heat, you'd have to pump in something like 800Watts (760 Watts/hp) and that come off the very meager NET HP the pathetic TYPE IVs generate...


Since most gasoline engines rarely exceed 33% efficiency, that means very very roughly that for 85HP* 64,600 Watts of the energy potential of the gas you are burning becomes mechanical energy... BUT... 195,000-64600= 130,000 Watts of heat need to be gotten rid of (at WOT)....
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TonyAKAVW
post Feb 15 2006, 01:27 PM
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I kinda doubt the peltiers would do it, and then you've got even more heat to dump. If you had 3 300w peltiers per side, you'd have 1800 watts to come up with, which is 150 amps at 12 volts. Time for another couple alternators. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Not to mention the other two alternators you've added for your electric tubrocharger

And lets say you could take out that full 1800 watts from the oil (peltiers are pretty inefficient, so it won't be that good) is that really going to make a big difference? A 130 HP engine is 97 kW, and if its even 80% efficient you are dumping 19 kW as heat. So 1800 watts off that might make a slight difference??? Who knows.

-Tony

Edit: damnit. Late again.
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Brian Mifsud
post Feb 15 2006, 01:29 PM
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Ha TONY... YOUR CALCULATORS FASTER THAN MINE......
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TROJANMAN
post Feb 15 2006, 01:33 PM
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Looks nice in pictures.........
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you guys are a bunch of nerds (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

cool discussion though. good luck mike. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)
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Mark Henry
post Feb 15 2006, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Feb 15 2006, 03:33 PM)
you guys are a bunch of nerds (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/av-943.gif)
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Aaron Cox
post Feb 15 2006, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Feb 15 2006, 12:33 PM)
you guys are a bunch of nerds (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

cool discussion though. good luck mike. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

that offends me (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/av-943.gif)
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neo914-6
post Feb 15 2006, 02:15 PM
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Heat pipes, thermoelectrics, and precision temp control! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif) Lot's of DC avail, use the more efficient Russian chips.

Market to high end / Sharper Image crowd and rake in the dough... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)
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SoCal Driver
post Feb 15 2006, 02:17 PM
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Very interesting concept. I think anytime you can reduce heat from the motor in any way is a step in the right direction.

OT comment..... I'm not a nerd, i'm a geek....theirs a difference!

Geeks = choose to be the way they are. How they act, how they dress, and who they associate with.... ect.

Nerds = have no control over any of the above. Thats the differnce between the two.
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Brian Mifsud
post Feb 15 2006, 02:50 PM
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I prefer the term "GOON" and sometimes answer to "hey, you wally"


Mike again beg for forgiveness for thread hijack (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/hijacked.gif)

Time for some experimenting... enough with speculation.......

I propose the following:

1) take junky valve cover and install a "drain" fitting into the low end at a convenient location
2) epoxy a suitable thermocouple at the opening to that drain.

3) Epoxy a thermocouple on or as near to the exhaust valve guide(s) as is feasible

4) Pop two more holes in valve cover so fittings can be installed and "aimed" at exhaust valve guides

5) Close it all up and hook up your oil pump/oil cooler combo
6) while your in there, epoxy a thermocouple to the inlet and outlet of the oil cooler

Now fire up that engine, but don' t turn on the new oil supply yet. Pick a favorite throttle setting and put a brick on the pedal. While your at it, measure the ambient air temperature.

Get the "baseline" numbers of oil at bottom of valve cover before it circulates back to the pushrod tubes as well as the valve guide temps..

7) Now fun begins.. turn on your pump, and measure away... play with turning fans on and off on the oil cooler..


I just moved, so of course I got sick and tired of carting the 40 channel analog thermocouple measurement system I had bought cheap years ago (Omega) and chucked it.. so I no longer have a multichannel tc reader.. anyone on southern cal got one?

I can set up a pump and heat exchanger (got an old Moto Guzzi cooler kicking around somewhere).. But I need an old unloved valve cover.

What do I hope to prove?? Well, I'm identifying the exhaust valve as the main achilles heel of the cylinder head. If I throw lots of oil directly at it, or water indirectly as Mike proposes.. Will it make any difference.. or is the primary heat path via the cylinder fins????

Inquiring nerds need to know....

anyone got stuff to contribute to this mess??
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maf914
post Feb 15 2006, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 15 2006, 11:04 AM)
Porsche actually water cooled the heads on turbos back in the mid-70s but just for a while. They found out better ways to deal with the heat and dropped that project. But do some research on that. You could make a whole sleeve kit for the fours to convert over.

Porsche used water cooled heads on the aborted Indy project with Interscope Racing and Danny Ongais in 79 or 80, and then took that engine and adapted it for the 1981 Lemans winning 936. Then they installed a variation into the 956 and 962 cars for a few more Lemans victories. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)
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Dead Air
post Feb 16 2006, 08:28 AM
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Easy,
Just move the spare tire and reservoir to the back trunk and have the windsheild washers spray the heads.
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tat2dphreak
post Feb 16 2006, 09:08 AM
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QUOTE (Dead Air @ Feb 16 2006, 09:28 AM)
Easy,
Just move the spare tire and reservoir to the back trunk and have the windsheild washers spray the heads.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap56.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/av-943.gif) water spray may be an idea thoughlight mist over the heads instead of pumping the water around the heads
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Britain Smith
post Feb 16 2006, 11:34 AM
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Here is what I did.

(IMG:http://www.britainsmith.com/Porsche/912Project/TurboMotor/CustomFab/images/IMG_0139_JPG.jpg)

The reasons for this were because I am running the Pauter roller-rockers that are not self-oiling. However, it could help with cooling off the heads. I machined out a slit in the valve cover, brazed a brake line over the slit, and drilled very small holes in the direction of the rockers. We shall see if it works?

-Britain
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TROJANMAN
post Feb 16 2006, 11:45 AM
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Looks nice in pictures.........
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QUOTE (Dead Air @ Feb 16 2006, 06:28 AM)
Easy,
Just move the spare tire and reservoir to the back trunk and have the windsheild washers spray the heads.


here's an old post i found on our local site (and alpha didn't write it (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) )

QUOTE
..........Someone was telling me about what is called the "Rubbermaid\Solution".  It involved spraying (through a windshield washer nozzle) water directly into the engine fan, to help with cooling. It appears to be a fairly simple setup, 5 gallon collapsible jug,VDO windshield washer pump with a couple of resistors to lower the voltage (as the pump would run constantly), and the wiring/hoses to
make it work.  He had said that over a 30 min session, the 5 gallons of water could remove something like 60'000 BTU's of heat.  It was supposed to help a lot just keeping everything in the engine cooler,
as well as increase horsepower, and extend engine longevity.  He prefers it immensely to an oil cooler.  He had said it was very popular a few years back, and all the cars he preped, had it.  The
details are supposed to be on the Pelican forums, by searching Rubbermaid.
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Jake Raby
post Feb 16 2006, 12:37 PM
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The key is an efficient combo that does not generate heat...

Then there are no issues with cooling!
Its all in the combo!
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alpha434
post Feb 16 2006, 12:50 PM
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I agree with Jake.

And I think I've already mentioned the "rubbermaid" solution on a different thread. Although, I've NEVER heard it called that. Like Jake says, it has to be used with the right "combo." So there should never be a need to just striaght stick (we always use ae early 911 windshield washer resevoir) the apparatus in there if you aren't doing something else "dynaimc" that would need it. And this kind of a system would be utterly useless on a street car. If you're over heating, then the problem isn't the heat and the solution isn't cooling.
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Jake Raby
post Feb 16 2006, 12:57 PM
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..and the remedy is tuning.

If it won't tune- the combo is jacked up- start over.
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Mueller
post Feb 16 2006, 01:06 PM
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QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 16 2006, 11:57 AM)
..and the remedy is tuning.

If it won't tune- the combo is jacked up- start over.

well.....I had to sell my "combo" (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif) so this was for my turbo 1.8 application....I'm still going to try it out, just need to get a real CHT gauge and sender for the cylinders to verify whether it works or not....I got nothing to lose except a few pounds of scrap aluminum (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif)
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