porsche 6, or 914 4, engine choice Options

[ModPR3]

i want to replace the engine in my 914 and am confussed by my choices. i thought of the subaru or chevy v8 conversion and i dont think thats for me. im looking at a rebuilt 2.4 6 conversion from motor meister or a built 4 motor of equal hp, which is 170 hp. jake at aircooledtechnology seems to be very busy so i was wondering if any of you knew how much a 914 type 4 motor would cost to build at that hp level.

[Mueller]

the /4 will cost about the same as the /6 kit I'm guessing, give or take a couple grand depending on options.....

niether method will be cheap....

[Jake Raby]

Oh no....Here we go again! (Do a search on this)

Have you sent me an email, I am very busy as always but as of this morning have replied to all emails in all our in boxes.

A few months ago i changed my 914 engine program and posted the changes here, here is an excerpt from that post that should give you tons of info.

Now, keep in mind that with our new head developments these engines have both gained 15HP (the 2316 is now close to 200HP) and the price has not gone up at all from what I have posted here.

Okay... I finally finished it! I have made it as simple as I can! Here are TWO engine possibilities as standard units for 914 applications. Both are engines I have uesd as base engines for years to complete their custom derivatives and both have been assembled dozens of times, thoroughly tested and I know their tuning specs by heart- this is the ONLY way I was able to do these so standardized...... I'm not happy about making a turn back to the dark side and offering something that doesn't have all the best included, but I figure it may be time for something here to be easier and faster for a change since I forgot what thats like!

Now I will say that if you think these prices are too much- please keep your soup cooler shut! If you think that some rice burning engine can be done cheaper- you are right, but you can also keep your sewer closed and go fill the tank with rice and drive away... If you think you can install a cast iron slug in the car that came from Detroit cheaper- You are right as well, but you can also and of course if you think the Porsche six cylinder is magical and can be done cheaper than this, well go start another thread to argue that point- oh, and while you are in the process!!!These engines are offered for those who still appreciate the simplicity of the TIV and want to bolt an engine in their car that it came with, instead of using a torch, sawzall and welder to do the job...... Now to the serious things since I have effectively ruffled all the feathers of the die hard converts that will hate it when they get passed by this regular old TIV engine!!!

This is simple- You only have two choices- the rest are now all NLA, or available in engine kit form only. No more custom engines, and no options will be added that are not listed specifically.. I won't even make an exception for the Virgin Mary, or God himself!

All engines available as “Turn key” complete units- No long block assemblies available. My work is worthless unless I can tune it as it will be run in your car. All prices based on customer providing complete 2 liter core. The only price increase over the stated prices will be for cracked cases, or cases that require replacement, of for heads that are severely cracked, or that have been damaged by sloppy rebuilds. Those charges will not exceed 750.00, even in the worst case scenario.

All engines WILL BE built from the customer’s core that was sent to us. We have no “core bank” as those most of the time end up giving the customer someone else’s left over’s, that are not as good as their own. I build your engine from your core, right down to the sheet metal and case- any case is acceptable, from 1.7- 2.0, no matter the year. Core charge for customers that do not have a core is 1,000.00

All engines also come with powder coated engine tin, unless the customer opts for the 914 DTM.

So here it is.. Its what you all wanted - The first standardized engines I have offered since October of 2,000. Do not think that this engine is mass produced, or less than any other engine I have ever offered. What I have done is standardized the combination and assembly and even the options so 914 owners will know what my possibility engine cost. This particular engine is the exacting what Flat VW has in his 914, the original owner of that car, Brian Miller, loved the engine more so than driving his boxster! It’s reliable and needs no more maintenance than a stock engine and maintenance intervals are still the same as stock as well.

I will not be accepting orders for this engine until Mid January when my schedule is down to less than a 5 month wait.

The prices listed are the absolute least that they will ever be. I will retain these prices through March15th 2006 and then reassess the costs and update as necessary.


2056cc- NLA - Two versions available as engine kits (one for stock FI and one for programmable FI/ carbs)

2270cc “C” (earlier version of the “2270 Performer” prior to further development)
96X78.4mm
150BHP@ 6,000 RPM
160 lb/ft TQ @ 3,500 RPM
Engine redline @ 7,000 RPM
Fuel requirement- 91 octane

Induction- priced with new 44mm IDF carbs. Not compatible with Stock EFI. Programmable fuel injection, optional for this engine, based on stock plenum/runners or individual runner T/Bs for engines using the 914 DTM. Individual runners not available for this engine without the 914 DTM.
Note about carbs- If the customer has their own carbs, they will not be utilized- sell them on Ebay and I’ll include brand new ones! Carbs can create a variable in the pricing and that’s not a possibility. I also do not fancy used, old carbs that give me a fit on the dyno and need repairs. The engine is priced with New Webers and matching linkage.

Exhaust- Not included, works well with heater boxes and a Bursch or Triad and also with Kerry Hunter header or the Tangerine Racing header.

Cooling system- Stock 914 system included in base price- 914 DTM optional. Stock tins all powdercoated gloss black as standard equipment and all fasteners upgraded to stainless steel to prevent corrosion.


Ignition- priced with Mallory Uni-lite as standard equipment

Crankshaft- RAT 2036

Conn. Rods- Rat 3032 H Beam with TI small end

Camshaft and lifters- RAT 9502 cam with matching CONVENTIONAL lifters. Composite lifters are an option.

Flywheel- Customers unit resurfaced and balanced- Lightening optional

Pressure plate and clutch- New Sachs units. These must be included to facilitate proper and thoroughly indexed engine balancing. Keep in mind that this is NOT cheap and is normally never included in turnkey engine packages.

Cylinders and pistons- RAT 6312 kit with bored cylinders and KB pistons in 96mm. NICKIES NOT AN OPTION FOR THIS ENGINE

Cylinder heads- This can be done one of two ways. The price of the engine is not impacted by the route that is chosen.

If customer has 2.0 914 core with 2 Liter heads
- The 2.0 heads will be absolutely rebuilt and ported (stage1 street) to our specs. Spark plug holes will be welded to receive 12mm spark plugs if any chambers are found to be cracked. Heads upgraded to dual valve springs with our SI valve upgrade. Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install- 2.0 914 heads are the only heads we rebuild and if they were available new ewe would not even rebuild them.

If customer has a 1.7/ 1.8 engine with 1.7/1.8 heads
- New cylinder head castings will be utilized and taken to our Rat 7436 combination. These heads have the same flow characteristics as the 2.0 cylinder heads, but feature the standard 1.7/1.8 spark plug location, so the customer’s sheet metal will still be correct. These heads feature similar performance to an engine with the 2.0 914 OEM castings - 5% on average due to the spark plug location and chamber differences. These heads are fully ported and feature all upgraded seats, valves, dual springs and etc as the 2.0 casting heads. We basically rebuild a brand new head and then Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install. These heads being brand new are a huge plus for reliability/longevity and are worth the slight power loss if you have a 1.7/1.8 core engine. I do not rebuild any heads other than the 2.0 heads because they are so rare and NLA new.

The price of the engine will not be impacted by which route you go- This is because the rebuilt heads take the same amount of labor to rebuild as the new heads cost us to purchase- This further simplifies pricing as well.

Valve train- Manton chromoly pushrods, 1.7 rockers modified for REAL 911 adjusters, heavy duty 8mm rocker studs and solid rocker spacers are standard equipment as well. This makes for a valve train that is “over built” for this engine, and that’s a VERY good thing… and it’s a standard here.

Labor/ processes-

-Standard stroker assembly= Rat engine manual not included nor available, engine spec sheet included only. Engine receives street level assembly tolerances only.(4,000 Labor value)

- Balancing= Intermediate balance included .05 Oz.In. Tolerance. (175.00 VALUE) (Race balance not available)

- Dyno tuning= Standard dyno session only (500.00 Value). A total of 4 hours allotted for complete process for carbureted engines. This will include a minimum of one power pull and a dyno graph will be supplied with the engine. (EFI equipped engines have their extra dyno time added into the cost of the EFI arrangement)


Price of standard engine, as specified above= 9,850.00 (1K of that is carbs alone)

Optional items- These prices are UPGRADES meaning the cost is on top of the proposed prices.

Ceramic lifters+ 600.00
Lightened flywheel+ 125.00
914 DTM+ 1250.00
Programmable EFI+ 2,800 (full kit, all you buy is hoses and fittings to install and price includes dyno tuning)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------end of engine choice 1
2316cc “B mod”

96X80mm
170BHP@ 6,500 RPM
170 lb/ft TQ @ 4,000 RPM
Engine redline @ 7,300 RPM
Fuel requirement- 91 octane

Induction- priced with new 44mm IDF carbs. Not compatible with Stock EFI. Programmable fuel injection, optional for this engine, based on stock plenum/runners or individual runner T/Bs for engines using the 914 DTM. Individual runners not available for this engine without the 914 DTM.
Note about carbs- If the customer has their own carbs, they will not be utilized- sell them on Ebay and I’ll include brand new ones! Carbs can create a variable in the pricing and that’s not a possibility. I also do not fancy used, old carbs that give me a fit on the dyno and need repairs. The engine is priced with New Webers and matching linkage.

Exhaust- Not included, HEATER BOXES NOT COMPATIBLE Kerry Hunter header or the Tangerine Racing header required. Euro race header is not adequate for this engine, nor is the triad or Bursch

Cooling system- Stock 914 system included in base price- 914 DTM optional. Stock tins all powdercoated gloss black as standard equipment and all fasteners upgraded to stainless steel to prevent corrosion.


Ignition- priced with Mallory Uni-lite as standard equipment

Crankshaft- RAT 2040

Conn. Rods- Rat 3038 H Beam with TI small end

Camshaft and lifters- RAT 9520 cam with matching CONVENTIONAL lifters. Composite lifters are an option.

Flywheel- Customers unit resurfaced and balanced- Lightening optional

Pressure plate and clutch- New Sachs pressure plate with Gold series 6 puck clutch disc to hold the added power from this beastly engine. These must be included to facilitate proper and thoroughly indexed engine balancing. Keep in mind that this is NOT cheap and is normally never included in turnkey engine packages.

Cylinders and pistons- RAT 6312 kit with bored cylinders and KB pistons in 96mm. NICKIES NOT AN OPTION FOR THIS ENGINE. Forged JE pistons optional for engines that see more track time than street time.

Cylinder heads- This can be done one of two ways. The price of the engine is not impacted by the route that is chosen.

If customer has 2.0 914 core with 2 Liter heads
- The 2.0 heads will be absolutely rebuilt and ported (stage2 street) to our specs. Spark plug holes will be welded to receive 12mm spark plugs if any chambers are found to be cracked. Heads upgraded to dual valve springs with our SI valve upgrade. Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install- 2.0 914 heads are the only heads we rebuild and if they were available new ewe would not even rebuild them.

If customer has a 1.7/ 1.8 engine with 1.7/1.8 heads
- New cylinder head castings will be utilized and taken to our Rat 7442 combination. These heads have the same flow characteristics as the 2.0 cylinder heads, but feature the standard 1.7/1.8 spark plug location, so the customer’s sheet metal will still be correct. These heads feature similar performance to an engine with the 2.0 914 OEM castings - 5% on average due to the spark plug location and chamber differences. These heads are fully ported and feature all upgraded seats, valves, dual springs and etc as the 2.0 casting heads. We basically rebuild a brand new head and then Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install. These heads being brand new are a huge plus for reliability/longevity and are worth the slight power loss if you have a 1.7/1.8 core engine. I do not rebuild any heads other than the 2.0 heads because they are so rare and NLA new.

The price of the engine will not be impacted by which route you go- This is because the rebuilt heads take the same amount of labor to rebuild as the new heads cost us to purchase- This further simplifies pricing as well.

Valve train- Manton chromoly pushrods, 1.7 rockers modified for REAL 911 adjusters, heavy duty 8mm rocker studs and solid rocker spacers are standard equipment as well. This makes for a valve train that is “over built” for this engine, and that’s a VERY good thing… and it’s a standard here.

Labor/ processes-

-Standard stroker assembly= Rat engine manual not included nor available, engine spec sheet included only. Engine receives street level assembly tolerances only.(4,000 Labor value)

- Balancing= Intermediate balance included .05 Oz.In. Tolerance. (175.00 VALUE) (Race balance not available)

- Dyno tuning= Standard dyno session only (500.00 Value). A total of 4 hours allotted for complete process for carbureted engines. This will include a minimum of one power pull and a dyno graph will be supplied with the engine. (EFI equipped engines have their extra dyno time added into the cost of the EFI arrangement)


Price of standard engine, as specified above= 10,400.00 (1K of that is carbs alone)

Optional items- These prices are UPGRADES meaning the cost is on top of the proposed prices.

JE Forged pistons+ 434.00 (track engines only)
Ceramic lifters+ 600.00
Lightened flywheel+ 125.00
914 DTM+ 1250.00
Programmable EFI+ 2,800 (full kit, all you buy is hoses and fittings to install and price includes dyno tuning)


2563cc- NLA for 914 applications as complete engine-one version available as engine kit

All engine’s in Super hero classification- NLA for 914 applications.

[TROJANMAN]

this infomercial has been brought to you by Jake Raby (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

i'll bump my motor meister thread for you from yesterday. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[Jake Raby]

The kit option has been a great one for the guys that don't desire having an engine with my name on it enough to wait around for 7+ months and pay for my labor and dyno work.

There are several authorized assemblers of these kits now, DTM engineering, our own Mark D and many more that have proven they can do a great job and satisfy the customer.

Trojan,
I figured I'd help keep this thread as painless as possible without going over the same pricing crap as always...... That post pretty much said it all.

[spare time toys]

QUOTE (ModPR3 @ Feb 22 2006, 12:41 PM)

im looking at a rebuilt 2.4 6 conversion from motor meister

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif) NNNOOOOO Lokk here and bird board about them. Dont do that to your car (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)

[Allan]

I say go with the /6 but find one from a different builder.

[grantsfo]

I would suggest looking into the route of a used 6. I spent a lot of time considering both T4 and 6 options.

I reviewed options from Jake and other T4 builders. T4 gets real expensive once you go beyond mild stock rebuild. Once the engine grows, your into new fuel sytems, oil coolers, etc.

Buying a used six made the most sense for me. I shopped forever for the engine until a deal presented itself. The car will be worth more with a six and at the end of the day you will have spent similar amounts of money. I should have my six conversion completed soon and current estimates put it at about $6000 which includes the engine, all conversion parts and professional install.

[TROJANMAN]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 22 2006, 09:51 AM)

Trojan, I figured I'd help keep this thread as painless as possible without going over the same pricing crap as always...... That post pretty much said it all.

i was just busting your chops. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[jim912928]

think 3.2L carrera engine with motronic!

[URY914]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)

(I always wanted to use that smiliey)

P (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[ken914]

Convert to a /6.

IF the price was the same for the big 4 versus making a six conversion I would go with the six.

BUT, lets look at what happens when that engine handgrenades. If the big 4 handgrendes (no fault of Jake, say you missed a shift) you start over at another full price engine. If the 6 self destructs (again, no fault of Jake) you have the engine replacement cost, so you buy another used engine and you are going again.

Now look at what happens when you want to sell your car to fund your wife, child, other addiction or etc. You sell a big 4 cylinder car with 20,000 on the engine and it is just a 4 cylinder car with an unknown engine. You sell your /6 with 20,000 on the engine and it is a /6 ALL DAY LONG.

Lastly, what happens when you are no longer content with 170 or 200 HP. You are pretty much out of luck with a 4 cylinder but with a 6 conversion you have a lot of options.

Just from the costs (build, maintain, sell) alone I would convert to a 6, but a /6 is also such a sweet engine.

Jake, no offense to you intended. You have done amazing work with the 4 cylinders.

Best of luck.

[ken914]

Oh, one more thing. Rather than do the conversion you would probably be better off selling you car and just buying the car you want!

[jetboy]

I also think i remember Jake saying that his engines will no longer come with carbs. This means the extra 2,800 for the EFI. Just in case your crunching the price differences.

[rick 918-S]

You could always have a Porsche V8... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I wrote a big, long post and the power flashed and I lost it!

Anyway, the carbs are still an option.. Believe it or not when Weber moved production to North Carolina from Spain the quality went back up as well as availability..

Carbs are optional.

170HP can come in 6 boxes ready to be assembled for less than 5K bucks- don't forget that.

[jetboy]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 22 2006, 12:04 PM)

Anyway, the carbs are still an option.. Believe it or not when Weber moved production to North Carolina from Spain the quality went back up as well as availability.. Carbs are optional. 170HP can come in 6 boxes ready to be assembled for less than 5K bucks- don't forget that.

And once again i start crunching numbers... damm you jake! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/headbang.gif)

[Trekkor]

I love this (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif)

I'll repeat what some said with my own little twist. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

You can do a nice small SIX conversion for about the same price as a stock FOUR re-build. ( $ 4-6k )

You can have a back-up used SIX in the shed and still be money ahead over a mid sized FOUR build. ( $10k )

If you want to go BIG, the 3.6 conversion is still cheaper than a MassIVe FOUR. ( do a search (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) )

I'll only run a FOUR if:

I buy another car with no motor or my SIX blows up.
I have my old 2.0 and I would use it until I found another SIX.

It's that good.


KT

[MoveQik]

QUOTE (jim912928 @ Feb 22 2006, 10:04 AM)

think 3.2L carrera engine with motronic!

I couldn't agree more! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[Root_Werks]

QUOTE (ken914 @ Feb 22 2006, 11:36 AM)

Oh, one more thing. Rather than do the conversion you would probably be better off selling you car and just buying the car you want!

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)