OT: Interesting new idea, the six-stroke engine Options

[lapuwali]

Crower (of Crower Cams) has just patented a new "six stroke" engine design. The crank turns 3 times for each single cam revolution. The extra two piston strokes are after the normal exhaust stroke, and involve water direct injection into a closed cylinder. This flashes into steam, and produces a second power stroke. The exhaust then opens to vent the steam. Enough heat is drawn off by this steam production that no actual cooling system is required.

It's claimed this can improve fuel economy by as much as 40%.

He's got a single-cylinder spark-ignition prototype working, and is now working on a compression-ignition version.

[Andyrew]

Wow!

But wouldnt that require a lot of water?

[Pugbug]

Interesting idea.

When water turns to steam it expands to 17,000 times the volume of the water...

[wertygrog]

You'd have to purge ALL of the water after steambustion before adding gas again....how wouldja do that?


I like the idea though! gas stations and water stations...

brent

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (wertygrog @ Feb 28 2006, 06:10 PM)

You'd have to purge ALL of the water after steambustion before adding gas again....how wouldja do that? I like the idea though! gas stations and water stations... brent

Why would you have to purge all of the water? Water injection for boosted cars has been done for decades, so there's no incompatibility.

[tat2dphreak]

doesn't sound too efficient for producing power though... but I'm no engineer... what do I know?

[SGB]

QUOTE (wertygrog @ Feb 28 2006, 09:10 PM)

You'd have to purge ALL of the water after steambustion before adding gas again....how wouldja do that? I like the idea though! gas stations and water stations... brent

Would you? What about water injection? What does it do anyway? I think this is aa amazing idea. Where is Dave D? Whattayasay MIT guy?

[Katmanken]

Whaddya mean it's not efficient...

It ups the efficiency of the engine.... You are getting extra power from waste heat. Might be able to dump the parasitic draw of the cooling fan AND get extra energy from each burn.....

Hope it really works.. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

Ken

[Dr. Roger]

i love the idea. probably not for high performance engines but i bet that thing can run and run on a gallon of gas.

i'm still dreaming of the day when i have the time and money to pursue my dream of a commercially viable ogle / otto engine. (an engine that runs on vapor instead of atomized fuel)

i hope people never stop thinking outside the box...

it's so fun!

[tat2dphreak]

QUOTE (kwales @ Feb 28 2006, 09:22 PM)

Whaddya mean it's not efficient... It ups the efficiency of the engine.... You are getting extra power from waste heat. Might be able to dump the parasitic draw of the cooling fan AND get extra energy from each burn..... Hope it really works.. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif) Ken

2 strokes of "steam power" per 4 of combustion doesn't sound like a real advantage for power... cooling, sure... which would help fuel economy... but it's not going to double the hp or anything... and you'd have to get a 10k redline

[Demick]

It all depends on how much power you get out of the steam stroke. If you can get 1/2 the power of a regular power stroke out of the steam stroke, then you will have equivalent power for an equally sized 4 stroke engine.

But the purpose is not for more power out of a certain sized engine. It's about making use of the waste heat of the engine thereby increasing the overall efficiency of the engine. I think it is brilliant.

Bet it runs like crap at startup though.

Demick

[messix]

direct inject on fuel really lean should get combustion temps up.

[SGB]

crower write-up

James-
this must be what you read...
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

i want to know more....

[MattR]

QUOTE (Dr. Roger @ Feb 28 2006, 06:23 PM)

i'm still dreaming of the day when i have the time and money to pursue my dream of a commercially viable ogle / otto engine. (an engine that runs on vapor instead of atomized fuel)

That system is a hoax. Gasoline has an associated enthalpy (stored energy). No matter what you do to the gas, you can only get so much energy out of its potential. Asking for a internal energy that doesnt exist defies so many laws of thermodynamics. There have been a bunch of articles I've read discounting the theory along with some schoolin'.

[MattR]

This is a really interesting topic. One thing I dont understand his how heat is lost in the vaporization of water. The blurb specifically suggests the vaporization process is self cooling, but with my level of education, that doesnt quite make sense.

I do see the possibility for work to be utilized from the heat through vaporization. Its amazing this hasnt been tried... I mean steam power was one of the first methods of propulsion in automobiles.

Wouldnt there be problems introduced with the use of glow plugs instead of an ignition based spark plug? What happens on the compression stroke with the water in the chamber?

I really need to gather my thoughts and do some freashening up... thanks for posting this! I just lost a few nights sleep.. haha

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (SGB @ Feb 28 2006, 07:27 PM)

crower write-up James- this must be what you read... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) i want to know more....

Actually, I read the original blurb in Autoweek. I hope there's lots more information forthcoming. It's been a very long while since anyone has come up with a really new idea in IC engines (well, one that works).

Yes, it wouldn't increase power much, but it should substantially increase efficiency. No cooling system would make the engine a lot smaller and lighter, though much of that would be offset by the water tank. It's a brilliant idea that's been possible for decades, not one that's only possible thanks to some new technology, so it's really amazing no one has thought of it until now.

It's not two strokes of steam power per 1 stroke of gas power. It's one power stroke followed by an exhaust stroke followed by a steam power stroke, followed by a second exhaust stroke.

During warmup, you could use a VTEC like arrangement to kick in a set of cam lobes that allowed it to run just like a normal 4-stroke.

[Dr Evil]

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 28 2006, 10:37 PM)

This is a really interesting topic. One thing I dont understand his how heat is lost in the vaporization of water. The blurb specifically suggests the vaporization process is self cooling, but with my level of education, that doesnt quite make sense.

Well, the heat energy must transfer to the lower energy component of the system, the water, in order to effect steam. It is the same concept (basically) as respiration (sweating).

The water absorbs the heat energy, the heat energy excites the water molecules causing them to expand, the expanding water exerts some force on its container.

[Dr. Roger]

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 28 2006, 10:26 PM)

QUOTE (Dr. Roger @ Feb 28 2006, 06:23 PM) i'm still dreaming of the day when i have the time and money to pursue my dream of a commercially viable ogle / otto engine. (an engine that runs on vapor instead of atomized fuel) That system is a hoax. Gasoline has an associated enthalpy (stored energy). No matter what you do to the gas, you can only get so much energy out of its potential. Asking for a internal energy that doesnt exist defies so many laws of thermodynamics. There have been a bunch of articles I've read discounting the theory along with some schoolin'.

matt loses 2 respect points.
1 for believing everything he reads and
2 for having a large penis.

Bastard!

just keep to yer learning boy and someday you just might get it.
what did dingleberry do , delete his post?

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (Dr. Roger @ Feb 28 2006, 10:49 PM)

matt loses 2 respect points.   1 for believing everything he reads and 2 for having a large penis. Bastard! just keep to yer learning boy and someday you just might get it.

roger loses 5 credibility points... as subtraction is not his strong suit...

-1 + -2= -3 respect points....

[lapuwali]

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 28 2006, 09:37 PM)

This is a really interesting topic. One thing I dont understand his how heat is lost in the vaporization of water. The blurb specifically suggests the vaporization process is self cooling, but with my level of education, that doesnt quite make sense. I do see the possibility for work to be utilized from the heat through vaporization. Its amazing this hasnt been tried... I mean steam power was one of the first methods of propulsion in automobiles. Wouldnt there be problems introduced with the use of glow plugs instead of an ignition based spark plug? What happens on the compression stroke with the water in the chamber? I really need to gather my thoughts and do some freashening up... thanks for posting this! I just lost a few nights sleep.. haha

The cooling effect is strictly in the "flash water into steam" part. The heat to do this has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the heat that's in the engine already. Thus, "heating" the steam "cools" the engine. Thermodynamics can be odd that way. The heat then can be reused to propel the piston, then leaves the engine out the exhaust.

You basically have to think of heat as a fluid that can "flow" from one place to another. Indeed, all of the early work on thermodynamics was done before anyone knew atoms existed. In Carnot's time (early 19th century), it was literally believed there WAS a fluid at work, moving the heat around. It wasn't until thermodynamics was well established that it was discovered that heat was nothing more than vibrating atoms, but all of the equations still worked. Carnot's cycle is still used today to explain how "heat engines" work.

There wouldn't be any water in the chamber during the compression stroke, as all of the water vapor should have escaped during the "steam exhaust" stroke. As that ends, the normal gas intake stroke would take place, followed by the normal gas compression stroke, the plug would fire, then the gas power stroke, then the gas exhaust stroke, near the end of which the water would be injected, then the steam power stroke, followed by the steam exhaust stroke.