Out-handling the 914 Options

[bongo monkey]

The 914 has a reputation for being one of the best handling sports car in the world. I find it hard to believe that 30 year old entry-level techonology can out handle modern sports cars that are focused on handling. What production street cars do you think can out-handle the 914? I've heard about Lotus cars handling extremely well, but also being quite expensive. How does the 914 compare to modern entry-level sports cars, such as a Honda S2000?

[seanery]

are you talking about a run of the mill 914?
A setup, refurbished 914? or a tweeked out hooked up 914?

lots of difference between the 3.

[bongo monkey]

Let's say a 914 set up for autocross. Sway bars, LSD, stiffer springs, bigger tires, that kind of car.

[redshift]

I can't compare it to anything else, new.

I drove a mid-engined '67 Corvette once that was like 9Fourteen Kong.... not stock or new, by any means.. and a '72 Muira that was like a 914/ufo.

In between it's cavernous cheapness, and mountainous expenses, it's hard to think about owning anything but 914s, sticky, aggrivating, 'boxish', squatty, skateboard, quirky, rusting, fireprone, underpowered, little pieces of crap....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

That little piece of shit won my heart from the first time I laid eyes on it.

I am going to cry now.


M

[biosurfer1]

i worked for honda for more than a year, and the s2000 handles amazingly...but it couldn't touch the 914 in my opinion...

[TimT]

I put a smack down on some Porsches, and other make cars on the track.. when the guys with the C2's and 2000 something turbos figure out how to drive the cars Im TOAST!!!!!

It is still a blast to velcro myself to a late carreras bumper and say move it on over.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/MDB2.gif)

[rick 918-S]

Apples for apples need to include the price point. Our 914's were intended to be entry level cars in there day. I guess as we compare we should be looking to the MR2 Mazda Miata, or Toyota Celica. No the S2000. Although the S2000 is peaky and revs to the moon it's not an entry level car.

[Bleyseng]

Comparing dollar for dollar say a S2000 vs a nice AX set up 914 with a 3.2L six.
My bet is on the 3.2L and would take it over the S2000, just way more car for the money.

[J P Stein]

I would say there are lots of cars that handle better than a 914...prepped or not....but it's *real* tough to quantify.

As Tim T alluded to, the driver makes a hell of a difference. There's this red Boxster that, on paper, shouldn't be close to me & the ulf....he & sometimes she, kick my ass regular like.

Lets not kid ourselves, a 914 can be made to run with
a S2000, but it takes a lot of time, money, & effort.

Geoff:
I've seen the ads for that yellow 3.2L 914. *Sounds* like a good runner but.....I haven't seen it in the results of the PNWR AXs. What, big track only in non-competive events? Red run group hero?

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

I think the Miata and the MR2 are right on the price point.

The MR2 certainly has the right formula... light weight (lighter than my Boxster), few creature comforts or luxury features, wheels out to the ends of teh car, a real driving maching produced by Toyota, a comany known for producing inexpensive reliable transportation (like VW, especially before they started moving up market). Dissapointingly at the autocroses I have been to the MR2 has not made the best showing... who knows?

From the handeling standpoint I think the Lotus Elise is IT right now. 1600 Lbs, 160HP, targa bar, less creature comforts than a 914 and pure magic on a twisty course. The only problem is that the US version is looking more like 2200 Lbs, 180HP, larger bumpers more front/rear overhang and lager HEAVIER wheels (more stylish for US customers). In the UK the Elise is priced with the MR2, Miata, Vaxhall, etc. the US spec Elise will be in the $35-38k range more in line with the Audi TT and S2000 than the Miata and MR2 so again... who knows?

I have driven tons of sports cars and keep coming back to the 914 for the handling and the emotional response I have when driving it. I have yet to find the same feeling in another car and that may be the thing that can't be engineered into these new cars. The Boxster is a great car and a great Porsche but even it doesn't generate the same feeling and enjoyment I find in the 914.

[Charles Deutsch]

I have driven tons of sports cars and keep coming back to the 914 for the handling and the emotional response I have when driving it.  I have yet to find the same feeling in another car and that may be the thing that can't be engineered into these new cars.  The Boxster is a great car and a great Porsche but even it doesn't generate the same feeling and enjoyment I find in the 914.

Hi_Fi_Guy,

That's a great testimonial - especially considering that you own one of the best handling modern sports cars (Boxster).

[cha914]

I think that for cars setup for autox, like you stated, the 914 will have a real hard time keeping up with similarly preped MR2's, Miatas, and CRX's...just take a look at the 02 solo 2 national results:

Cstock

http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/national...results/cs.html

CSP

http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/national...esults/csp.html

...

A friend of mine has been a Solo II national contender for a few years, and last year he built a 944n/a as a class killer in CS I think, and he got his doors blown off by the MR2's ... I think most of it had to do with rule changes that helped the MR2's, but it just goes to prove the point that it takes alot of time and money to make a 914 handle with alot of these new cars.

Doesn't mean that the new cars have the same "feeling" as a 914, so I guess it really comes down to your definition of handling.

Tony

[Bleyseng]

Oh no doubt the modern cars have an advantage the more stock you go. But as AX cars the 914 can be set up to be highly competive (the Fordahls have won 2 years in a row in their class).

JP, It was set up to be a track car but still streetable (barely). It was completed by the Fordahl's shop for the guy. I don't think he driving it much as he races a VW Scirroco or a Lotus Seven. Its a good car, but a little too much for me.

Geoff

[drew365]

The real difference between most of the cars mentioned will only show up when the car is being driven at 9/10ths on a track. I've been instructing for the POC series I'm running and I've been surprised that some of the newer cars in stock form are not that competitive. The last event my student had a Boxster S and it had quite a bit of understeer. I would say a 914-6 can be modified to run with most cars out there including some of the big money exotics. Of course the modified 914-6 becomes big money pretty fast. It's all a matter of taste.

[anthony]

Autocross though is not a pure test of handling. First it favors cars that can execute sharp turns and second horsepower does come into play. A stock 914 with 80-95hp will lose ground to a 140hp MR2 Spyder that does 0-60 in 6.9 seconds.

What would be fun to see would be some car magazine type tests (0-60, braking, slalom, skip pad) using several "normally" modified 914s. By normally I'd say we'd need:

Stock 1.7L/1.8L

Stock 73/74 2L with factory sway bars

914/4, 19mm front bar, 140lb rear springs

914/4, 5-lug carrera suspension, 19mm front bar, 140lb rear springs

914/6, 19mm front bar, 140lb rear springs

914/6-3.2L, carrera suspension, 21mm torsion bars, 19mm sway bar, 180lb rear springs

Same as above in GT clone trim, flares, 7" and 8" rims

All of the above cars would have the best possible modern tires. The one thing that I've always hated about car magazine tests is that they have to test the car in stock trim even if it comes with non-sticky OEM tires - like the 165SR15s the 914 shipped with.

This would make a nice 914club event someday. We all show up, do autocross, braking, acceleration, and other tests. We would have a great upgrade database after that and a fun event.

[kdfoust]

I don't necessarily think that the 914 design is what makes it handle good. It's more like the type of people that the design attracts have a propensity for being skilled drivers. My non-p-car buddies are alway amazed that an early 911 (PCA AM class car let's say) can put the whop-down on all comers (twin turbos, boxsters, '92 RSA, whatever) at an event. Yeah sure the car is dialed, but it's the driver that those cars tend to attract that makes the difference, likewise the 914.

Have fun,
Kevin

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

I don't necessarily think that the 914 design is what makes it handle good.  It's more like the type of people that the design attracts have a propensity for being skilled drivers.  My non-p-car buddies are alway amazed that an early 911 (PCA AM class car let's say) can put the whop-down on all comers (twin turbos, boxsters, '92 RSA, whatever) at an event.  Yeah sure the car is dialed, but it's the driver that those cars tend to attract that makes the difference, likewise the 914.

Have fun,
Kevin

Yeah, the driver makes a LOT of difference. I think comparisons should be made for street-driven vehicles...track/AX-only cars are like dragsters in that they are specialized and thus anything goes.

I set my cars up for handling because I drive on the streets -- given a twisty road or a straight one and I'll take the twisty every time! I smoked some punk in a Mustang 5.0 with my VW station wagon in some curves because he only knew how to mash the gas pedal...yeah, on the straights he was gone but when we entered the corners I wasreally applying the brakes and flashing him to move.

Tires make a BIG difference in handling and braking, and that is the first "upgrade" I recommend next to suspension (springs/shocks) -- if you're not sure what to get then I recommend getting a tire with a Treadwear value between 360 and 180 (we're talking street driving but the lower the number the better the stickiness but the less life it will have) with Temperature and Traction ratings of 'A' or 'AA'. Sway bars and springs/shocks make a difference, as a matter of course. It depends on how much $$$ you wanna blow and how much of the car you want to keep street driveable i.e. keeping your kidneys from shaking out of your body. Then you practice, practice, practice!!!

[BenNC]

A national level guy that runs around here recently set FTD (raw, no PAX) with a Stock Class MR2 Spider on Street Tires. Granted, he had a couple grand worth of custom valved shocks (legal in stock) and Faulken Azenis on the car. It was still impressive.

[URY914]

1. You can't compair old vs new.
2. There is no such thing as a stock 914.
3. Even in its day the 914 was not the car to beat in SCCA Showroom Stock racing.
4. Why aren't 914's winning every class in PCA when they run against 911s with the same engine?

But this is what bench racing is all about.

Paul

[EdwardBlume]

I hate when people ask questions about what is the "best" what they're really asking is "how big (or fragile) is my ego?" Who cares.

914 owners drive 914s because its fun.

The fact is that the 914 in any modified or unmolested variety is what it is. Its a small mid engine light weight car with manual options and basic german handling. You can modify or restore the car to your pleasing with rewarding results. And this website.

What can beat it compared to today's standards? Who cares. The Subaru STI could probably keep up with a 911 Turbo, but while the owners are checking out each others "Members Only" jackets, I'll be cruzing the hills in my 914.

All this is my opinion.