Project MBT-8 914 (warning - big pics for dial-up), new build thread for my V8 tube car Options

[Aaron Cox]

rattle can it one color (flat black) for a nice semi completed effect (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mueller]

2600 lbs is not too bad....I was expecting Nascar figures of 3500+ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[byndbad914]

rattle can it one color (flat black) for a nice semi completed effect (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually I am going to start a thread asking about rattle can paint - I want to do exactly what you said - rattle it matte black - but I am not sure how that affects body work later (in other words, do I have to sand all that shit back off of the fiberglass and such or can it be left on and worked over without penalty like final paint falling off or peeling later).

2600 lbs is not too bad....I was expecting Nascar figures of 3500+ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) yeah, picked the car up Tues night and swung by my friend Troy's house to show him. He was actually talking to my other friend Scott that is going to help me set the car up (NASCAR guy) and he told Troy the car probably weighed 1,000lbs more than it should (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) If I can change out the lids, doors (for the track only - I am going to install guide "pins" in the hinges of the good doors for easy removal/reassmble when I want to take it to a cruise night), windshield for polycarbonate, so forth and get it down to 2,400lbs I would be really happy at that.

Actually Scott wasn't far off tho' if you consider Roger Sheridan's tube/fiberglass body 914-6 is 1,850lbs - I am almost 1K more than his... but I will feel pretty safe in this puppy above 150mph.

[Chris Pincetich]

AWESOME car, thread, progress!
My 0.02 = if you're gonna dip the car in a year and do final paint then, you can do whatever for paint now. The only problem I see is that if you leave the car in sun with cheap @$$ black paint from a spray can, it might all flake off at 140+ mph. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also, rear valence? I see tons of photos of track 914s that are actually gutted in the rear. Perhaps you have an aero plan in mind, to seal up the bottom flush with the rear valence. Otherwise, a rear valence might just be a big drag parachute. Covering the bottom rear should be OK for a water cooled car, I don't think blocking some air flow would cause much trouble. At 160 mph the air wont have time to do anything but the path of least resistance. Keep the photos coming! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[byndbad914]

AWESOME car, thread, progress!
My 0.02 = if you're gonna dip the car in a year and do final paint then, you can do whatever for paint now. The only problem I see is that if you leave the car in sun with cheap @$$ black paint from a spray can, it might all flake off at 140+ mph. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also, rear valence? I see tons of photos of track 914s that are actually gutted in the rear. Perhaps you have an aero plan in mind, to seal up the bottom flush with the rear valence. Otherwise, a rear valence might just be a big drag parachute. Covering the bottom rear should be OK for a water cooled car, I don't think blocking some air flow would cause much trouble. At 160 mph the air wont have time to do anything but the path of least resistance. Keep the photos coming! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Thanks!

On the paint issue, I agree won't matter for the steel parts if I am dipping, just worried about the fiberglass pieces. They need a lot of sanding, so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) might just have at it anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Got some good info from my paint thread question too.

As for rear valence and bumper, you are right on for asking. It isn't on the car because I am contemplating what I want to do. The bumper from AIR fits like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) so I may buy a Getty one for the "street", then hack the center out of the AIR one (I have seen many a track car like that). On the track, run no rear valence (the car is skinned between the rear rails btw as you mention all the way back to the mufflers) and the hacked bumper up a bit for airflow out the rear. Then on the street put the nice bumper and valence on.

I dunno, I am having a really hard time determining what I want to do back there. Because I skinned it all the way back to almost the valance, I should be able to run the bumper and valence and not have issues. But then hacking the back out would give all the hot air from the engine/trans/coolers somewhere to go.

Another issue that I have absolutely no idea of the effect is rear airflow differences between the two concepts v. wing performance. Wings at the rear bumper of the car are heavily influenced by how the air comes out from under/behind the car too. I may f it up having a bunch of airflow out the back v. low-level/high velocity airflow under the valance. Or completely the opposite. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

So I will probably base it all on how it will look in the end like some silly ricer with his pants hanging low (form over function) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) First iteration will be full bumper and valence - if the car feels "not fast enough for my pucker factor" I will dig deeper. I have an idea I am just going to scare the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) outta myself with this thing as is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shocked[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif) It was pretty fast before, now if it handles a lot better and I can really blow thru T8 of Willow above 145-150mph, that will be plenty for my comfort factor. Even all f'd up before it was the fastest car I have ever driven.

[byndbad914]

hey all - 'bout time for an update. Progress has been slow the last couple weeks as I had to prepare and fly out to Denver area for a job interview last week. Got my fingers crossed for that one!

Anyway, I had the wiring more or less done before that all came about, but finalized a few things tonight. All that is left is to get a new battery-to-kill-switch cable made (mine old one is about 2ft too short now) and wire the positive to the ignition box behind the drivers seat (it is all wired minus that input).

Not too often you see a tube chassis car with 525HP V8 and a wing and - WTF - wipers! They work tho' I dont have blades for the arms right now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Got some fun shots with the lights on - ever seen those pictures in the mall of old street scenes and the cars have lights that light up?


The rear lights complete with reverse lights on


I like the red dash lights with the carbon fiber gauges - kinda poser but I think it looks really cool and when the car is all satin black, the red should match really well


I did all I could to hide the wiring and burnt through over 150 zip ties (on my 4th package of 50) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Will probably go back and redo the ones along the NASCAR bars to clean up as I found myself running a few extra wires I forgot about. I am really autistic about this stuff and damn near tick when I am running those wires trying to get everything nice and evenly spaced and straight and tight and.... ugh. Anyway, here is an idea of how I ran the wires trying to hide them from direct view (obviously I didn't run in the frame as I didn't want to drill holes anywhere in it - a chopper motorcycle is different)

outside which view will be blocked by the door

[byndbad914]

and from the passenger side - can't see it looking through the windows


The rear area, I pulled hot from the starter pole (direct to battery through the kill switch) and ran inline fuses for the rear fans/trans pump/distributor. I chose not to tax the fuse box too much and also those would be long runs from the front firewall back


I just realized I forgot to get a shot of the new fuse block from Painless - I will try to remember to do that.

[byndbad914]

Probably starting to notice that by now I just basically pieced the stock harness back together for now. The front loom is a bit short and kinda spans the width a bit funky for now, but I didn't want to waste time redoing that since SEMA is next week and I look forward to checking out Felix's headlight setup in the turn buckets. If that looks good 'nuf for me, all that wiring will get pitched and new, simpler wiring will be ran for those units


For the switched items I added (3 cooling fans/H2O pump/fuel pump/trans pump) I fused the hot and switched the ground. This makes it clean as only one wire goes into the box per item (the other side of the ground is internal to the mounting screws) instead of running one hot in from the fuse and then back out to the item

[Mike T]

I understand the paint to use for the Blackout look is John Deere Blitz Black. Seems to be the paint of choice for the Rat Rod crowd. It's cheap too at $26.00/gallon.

Never used it myself but a friend of mine is preparing to use it on a Ratrod beetle he's building.

http://crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/John_D...itz_Black_paint

Some info and examples.

Mike T

[ss6]

Been following your progress (mostly via the pix), awesome job!

Saw the discussion on using Corvette suspension, was wondering if you had any thoughts about Boxster guts being a suspension candidate?

Been daydreaming about doing a tube frame teener ever since my sheet metal wonder slid into a tirewall last summer, but figured I'd try to leverage all that high priced Porsche engineering talent by using entire late model front and rear suspension assemblies rather than trying to engineer my own (not enough time / confidence). Would also stick with Porsche engine / tranny since my local PCA wouldn't let me on the track without 'em.

The Boxster suspensions are delivered to the factory as bolt-in assemblies from subcontractors, so I'm thinking they should be relatively easy to design mounts for, and there should be plenty of twisted Boxster parts donors out there.

Any comments / opinions?

[byndbad914]

I understand the paint to use for the Blackout look is John Deere Blitz Black. Seems to be the paint of choice for the Rat Rod crowd. It's cheap to at $26.00/gallon.

Thanks Mike - you are right on about that. I have been asking around to see if anyone knew where to get JDBB - my cousin is doing a ratrod squareback actually with an angle chop and so forth and I heard about it through some sites he pointed me to. Should be pretty cool. Thanks for posting that tho'

Does anyone know where I could get about a case of the JDBB in rattle cans? I don't have a gun and just want to go for it with cans... I have strayed away from the rustoleum idea for fear of ever wanting to do a better paint job (I heard all that Rustoleum will have to come completely back off if I use it).

Here is a shot of the fuse block from Painless tucked into the passenger side of the footwell. Feet are about 1.5ft away from this, so not worried about it getting stomped on. Gotta get in there with the new bag of zip ties and clean it up some more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


You are kinda looking up, so you see the underside of the fuel cell area and the cooling lines to the right. You can't even see the wires when sitting in the passenger seat or looking in from outside. All of that is up behind the dash, minus the fuse block - that you can see in the passenger seat.

Here is another sorta cloudy shot of the rear fuses (camera was too close to really focus) to see how I fused the primary side of the cooler fans and trans pump, so forth. They are $2ea at AutoZone and will help remove too much load through the fuse block at the front.


Lastly, the ignition box is mounted behind the driver's seat to keep heat away. Also, it is mounted right between the NASCAR bars so I can just pop open the door, take a little screw driver and change my rev limiter and see the diagnostic light.

[byndbad914]

Saw the discussion on using Corvette suspension, was wondering if you had any thoughts about Boxster guts being a suspension candidate?

Been daydreaming about doing a tube frame teener ever since my sheet metal wonder slid into a tirewall last summer, but figured I'd try to leverage all that high priced Porsche engineering talent by using entire late model front and rear suspension assemblies rather than trying to engineer my own (not enough time / confidence). Would also stick with Porsche engine / tranny since my local PCA wouldn't let me on the track without 'em.

The Boxster suspensions are delivered to the factory as bolt-in assemblies from subcontractors, so I'm thinking they should be relatively easy to design mounts for, and there should be plenty of twisted Boxster parts donors out there.

Any comments / opinions?

Sucks that you wrecked your car - that is not a good feeling to count those pennies in your head when you get out and look at it.

Well, it is basically opinion so take it FWIW... I don't know much about the Boxster suspension frankly, but I can rip off Chapman with this - any suspension works with little motion (typical race car setups have maybe 1" of compression and 2" expansion during body roll). That is on the high side - many higher spring rate cars and big sway bar cars may see less than 1" on both. So, that means there is little motion to cause detrimental effects of good v. bad designs.

So, I would base my suspension selection on this criteria:

1. If limited travel, then most suspension designs will probably work

2. Which one has dimensions that will fit inside of the body/track width I am using? The Boxster is a narrow car, so I bet it could be worked to fit just fine. Also, see Felix's Neo-914 setup - IIRC he has a boxster trans (tho' don't quote me there - if not him, it has been done). So you could have a pretty slick setup using all Boxster components and just mate that trans to whatever engine you chose. Also you would have a slick cable shifter setup to modify to fit your car as well. I basically have a Boxster shifter in mine and aftermarket cables for my 930 trans.

3. Availability of good performance parts - this is why I like the Corvette stuff. That is THE hot ticket in rodding these days, so there are some cool parts out there to upgrade them and there will be even more. That said, if you are okay with the stock arms and so forth of the Boxster, then that won't be a concern. Also, I would have fabbed custom tubular arms based directly off of jigging the stock C6 stuff to have spherical bearings and so forth - I would do the same with the Boxster stuff as a performance upgrade I suspect.

Long winded opinion, but hopefully that helps you when deciding. I just like the C5 and later stuff - that LS7 Z06 is THE car IMHO right now and that suspension DEFINITELY handles as I have ridden in C5 Z06s and was absolutely blown away what a stock car with good tires can do. That said, I bet the Boxster stuff would be easier to adapt since it is all metric and about the same width as the 914...

[Jeroen]

the boxster rears are mcPhersons, basically the same as the fronts
check the "boxster build" thread in the paddock, there's pics of the susp.

if you're going tubeframe, you could use the 993 or later rearsuspension

[byndbad914]

if you're going tubeframe, you could use the 993 or later rear suspension

Here is a set of photos a fellow nonclubber had on here awhile back trying to find out who owned it - apparently used late model stuff front and rear. My concern is look how far through the hood the front struts would be...

I had a bunch of money wrapped up in struts and shocks and brakes and so forth for the stock tub, so I kinda made the mistake of not seeing that as a "sunk cost" as clearly the parts were nearly new and useable. Had I not had so much money wrapped up in 930 Turbo brakes, RSR front struts and so forth, I WOULD NOT USE STRUT SUSPENSION. I would have used either Corvette dual-A stuff or some form of NASCAR front clip and custom-made rear. We went 5-link rear on mine as it was easy with the V8 and so forth. Corvette A's would have worked too I suspect.



edit - to see the picture in full size, click on the link, then click on the pic again where it pops up to get full size

[Bigbohr]

if you're going tubeframe, you could use the 993 or later rearsuspension

This may not be what you meant, but just wanted to point out that unless you can accept near zero suspension travel I don't think you can use the 993 suspension sub-frame. The half-axles on the 993 point out backwards, while they have to point forwards on a 914. The 993 subframe doesn't allow you to do that (interference). So you would have to fabricate a frame and control arm brackets. The 996 subframe may not have that problem, I don't know.
The other problem with the 993 and probably also 996 suspension is that the forward links go quite far inward towards the car centerline - otherwise said the spacing between the pivots is quite narrow. Not sure whether a flat 6 will fit in between. The V8 being much narrower on the bottom shouldn't have that problem. Exhaust routing may still be a bit of a challenge though.

byndbad914, your car is awesome! Very nice work ...

[Brad Roberts]

I fused the hot and switched the ground. This makes it clean as only one wire goes into the box per item (the other side of the ground is internal to the mounting screws) instead of running one hot in from the fuse and then back out to the item

Crazy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You are one of the first people (outside of myself) that I have seen use this method. People look at me funny when I run one wire to their fans in the front of a V8 car. Porsche liked to do this a lot in the past.

The car you posted pics of with the Boxster stuff: He used Boxster rear upper mounts in the front. I'm trying to figure out why he did this? Can you point me to his thread somewhere?

996 rear suspension in a 914.. YES. It appears easier to us the 996 than the Boxster rear setup.


B

[Brad Roberts]

I see what he did now. That is all 993 FRONT suspension in the front of the car. Not Boxster. Boxster uses the same style strut mounts as the 993, but they use them in the rear. I looked closer and saw 993 lower control arms.

My bad..


B

[byndbad914]

Crazy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You are one of the first people (outside of myself) that I have seen use this method. People look at me funny when I run one wire to their fans in the front of a V8 car.

See Brad, great minds think alike (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Can you point me to his thread somewhere?

I see you answered your own question above, but just FYI as for a link, I don't have one frankly. Probably about a year ago now a fellow member posted those 3 pix asking if anyone knew anything about that car and there were no positive replies... So I dunno anything about it. I just saved the jpgs in case I wanted to refer to them during my build.

[byndbad914]

just a little update for those who are following along - I fired the latest iteration yesterday. It is sooo weird how the dry sump makes the engine act so much better. Fired right up, warmed right up and idled within just a couple seconds of running and that NEVER happened before. The only change is the dry sump so maybe somehow that more efficient pump (I can prime it to 60psi for 2 minutes with my Dewalt electric drill, so that is definitely no drag) puts "less enough" load on the motor that it idles nice even cold.

Anyway, I am just happy it fired up and didn't leak all over the place. My Barry Grant fuel pump is leaking however, so I either need to tear into it and replace a seal or send it back.

Ordered a custom throttle cable this morning (my friends came over to hear it run and were laughing watching me sit on the NASCAR bar with my left hand turning the key and my right through the back window operating the carb). Then I need to get the seats all welded in and seat belt mounts, make a new doghouse for it now that all the wiring and so forth is ran, then align it, then tear up some track. I am shooting for an open track day at Willow Dec 22nd. I would like to make the 8th but doubt I can pull all of that off. Maybe. I am going to Florida for the PRI show 3rd week of Dec and accepting a job in Colorado so probably moving and starting by Jan 15th, so it is going to be an insane month!!!!!!!

[andys]

I am shooting for an open track day at Willow Dec 22nd. I would like to make the 8th but doubt I can pull all of that off. Maybe. I am going to Florida for the PRI show 3rd week of Dec and accepting a job in Colorado so probably moving and starting by Jan 15th, so it is going to be an insane month!!!!!!!

I may be able to make it out to Willow Springs on one of those track days along with another 914V8.........Drop me a PM.

Andys