Project MBT-8 914 (warning - big pics for dial-up), new build thread for my V8 tube car Options

[turbo914v8]

That’s what I am talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) Thanks for the being so up front with information. Hope you don’t mind but thanks to you I have a real good idea how to duplicate a similar set up for my self. Hope you don’t mind if I copy you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Your ideas are first rate.

[byndbad914]

Hope you don’t mind if I copy you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Your ideas are first rate.

Heheh, the wing ideas are copied from Roger Sheridan, so feel free to steal the stolen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif) If you are seriously tracking the car, go with wider spaced uprights like mine. If you are "sorta" tracking but also care about it looking cool, go with the 18" spacing on the uprights - it looks much better that way.

I had heavily considered going to the 18" center and running a couple small guide wires from the spill plates to the back of the roof (no I am not kidding (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif) ). At the track if I had rocking I could hook up the wires to stop the rocking, then off the track I could just remove the wires and it would look good all the time. This is starting to sound like a bad Zoolander pun... "the car would be really gud looking"

[Brad Roberts]

My question is:

What are you going to do in the front to balance the car? That wing has a 3degree angle of attack @ zero setting on the uprights!!! You are going to need a BIG splittler for the front..LOL

I have always admired the tube work of a offroad guy. He could have used a lot less in the construction of the car. Every single cage/car build I have seen from the offroad guy's is WAY overkill. You make references to Roger's car.. Roger's car has 1/4 of the tubes in it compared to yours. You will have NO issues with being able to jump it off of 30ft cliffs!!

Dont take the above as negative. It is just an observation. I'm happy you have progress on a project (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

B

[Aaron Cox]

he has the power to over come the extra weight (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[byndbad914]

My question is:

What are you going to do in the front to balance the car? That wing has a 3degree angle of attack @ zero setting on the uprights!!! You are going to need a BIG splittler for the front..LOL

I have always admired the tube work of a offroad guy. He could have used a lot less in the construction of the car. Every single cage/car build I have seen from the offroad guy's is WAY overkill. You make references to Roger's car.. Roger's car has 1/4 of the tubes in it compared to yours. You will have NO issues with being able to jump it off of 30ft cliffs!!

Dont take the above as negative. It is just an observation. I'm happy you have progress on a project (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

B

Brad - no offense taken!! I am going to be running a front splitter - I just have yet to fab it. It will probably stick out about 2-3" in front of the spoiler area once it is done.

As for the tubes, all those tubes in the center of the car are actually my idea - not AJs. Even AJ thought I was way overkill! So I have the baja guys thinking I am overkill (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I just wanted the center cockpit area of that car to be very rigid since it is so compact - recently rally guys were being killed by side impacts where the car crumpled in and took them out. All that tubing is there to hopefully keep the car out of my ribcage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As for Roger's car - you are correct that he has way less tubing, but that just doesn't seem safe to me should something really go wrong at 150mph.

And torsionally it will better handle the 438 lb-ft of torque the V8 is making.

His car is very light, which is great for speed, but not necessarily safety. Mine probably gained 150-200lbs just in floor tubing, but in the long run I think I will be happier carrying that 200lbs of safety around the track. And fortunately all of that extra weight will only be 4-5" off of the ground.

Of course, the way my luck works, I will have a side impact and the car won't budge an inch, but I will have died from some f'd up internal injury due to lack of impact absorbsion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[byndbad914]

mo' updating after the weekend. I went down Friday to check up on things. Normally I would work on it on Saturday, but went out to Willow for the POC races instead (need to get my priorities straight, right?!) It was good to go out there as I have a whole bunch more ideas of things to do and there was a huge turnout of cars.

I saw the turbo 996 car that clicked off a 1:18 a month or two ago out there, and that was something to see. I gather he wasn't that much quicker through the corners from what I could see, but through the T7-T8 sweeper and the straight he would just mow down cars like they were standing still! I only took pics of the rear suspension as my camera ran out of room before getting an overall shot of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Anyway, back to MBT. AJ is finishing up the front suspension by building the upper strut mounts as of Friday


and started making the skin for the underside of the car


from inside

[byndbad914]

he skinned out the dash and some other areas too

[914_1.8t]

What gauge sheet are you using for the fllorpan/underside?

[byndbad914]

What gauge sheet are you using for the fllorpan/underside?

good question... I am not sure about gauge sizes, but I think it is .090" IIRC. I will have to ask to be sure. He used the .060" stuff on the backside of the dash, but I am pretty sure the bottom is thicker. I don't think it was 1/8".

[Brad Roberts]

Little Tidbit about the Turbo cars you were watching.. they rarely finish the race. Something *always* breaks for some odd reason.

It is fun watching them come to a stop for the corners (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)

HUmm. I'm wondering if you should have went with Rogers "wide" version. The biggest tires I could get under the narrow body (with stock suspension) are 11's.

B

[Andyrew]

Brad, same for the HPH flares? I've got 10's on now, and see another inch of livable space.. more if I cut the reinforcement.. (but I wont do that..)

[byndbad914]

Little Tidbit about the Turbo cars you were watching.. they rarely finish the race. Something *always* breaks for some odd reason.

It is fun watching them come to a stop for the corners (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)

HUmm. I'm wondering if you should have went with Rogers "wide" version. The biggest tires I could get under the narrow body (with stock suspension) are 11's.

B

When I bought the kit, I actually planned on more of a streeter V8. Times they are a changin'. Even so, I won't have any of the inner body in the way now. I will be limited by only what the 5-link suspension won't hit for the most part, which will be interesting to see what that will be. I may be able to get a 12 or 13 under there in the end, but hard to predict at this point. I am going to talk to AJ pretty seriously later tonight about maybe building A-arm stuff similar to the 996 I shot all the suspension photos of as opposed to long links (which I prefer because you get little to no change through travel with those), which will make more room for tires.

As for those turbo cars breaking - I heard he has something like 700 rwhp, which seems like a ton from such a small motor, so I am guessing that would be a "highly stressed" engine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) He didn't break from what I saw, but he threw money at the car in a manner not often witnessed and never experienced by a guy like me. Rumor is his dad owns all the Sport Chalet stores, they have about $500K-$600K in the car. He was changing tires in between every session (18" x huge" sets of Yokos aren't exactly cheap).

Sense the jealousy yet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) His dad owns the Sport Chalets, my dad owned a garbage route. And a septic tank pumper at one point to round out the strange smells of our driveway. Born "whiskey tango" and it has been an uphill battle ever since, that many would insist I am losing I suspect (IMG:style_emoticons/default/owned.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

[byndbad914]

more updates... he has started laying out the rear suspension. It is looking good so far, but still early phase. The uprights may prove to be a bit of a pain but doable - AJ is mocking up with the whole arm, then will cut it down to where it needs to be for all 5 links to work correctly. He already determined it was easier to work with the arm upside down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

Sorry for the fuzzy pics, turns out my batteries were almost dead an my camera focus goes to crap when that happens...

Here is a jpeg from SusProg3D software's website. I didn't use the software (I used graph paper and compasses cuz I am a CSOB) but lifted this pic from their site to show AJ what I want.


And the progress



Note that the top link isn't declined - but it isn't at ride height, just resting on the jack. The end geom should have lowers parallel to ground and nominal ride height with a decline in the top link to give about 1deg of camber gain on 2" of bump. The shock will mount in the stock location again.

[byndbad914]

And then we had a seriously heated debate about his firewall. He thinks it is nice and simple and works well. I hated how it looks and how intrusive it was. He was pretty on fire after that conversation, but everything is smoothed over after the weekend and I gave him some sketches of what I would like to see and he will make it happen.

Here is what he had - what do you guys think? I am a really picking bastard, so maybe I am just taking it too far, but I just didn't like how "big" it looked. My sketch follows the back of the cage inboard to the engine mounting tubes, then has a "doghouse" that is removeable at the center (think like a van but at the rear, or a Pantera for those that know what those are like).


And then a shot of the wheel adapters I had made FYI. Adapts 911 130mm pattern to 5-on-5 race wheel pattern.

[byndbad914]

too lazy again this week to get a set of batteries, so camera is still a little fuzzy...

AJ fixed the firewall to a sketch I provided... IMO look about 1000% better


Another shot - you can kinda see the pieces up by the window that I bent up for them to install. The square area gives plenty of clearance to the water neck and throttle linkage, while the bent pieces attached on each side follow the stock pillar pads almost perfectly to give it a "custom, but factory fit" look. I think it was worth the extra effort to make it match the car's lines. He had just a 90deg bend like the center all the way out just sort of "running into" the pads and thought it was lame to try to work to an interior pad... some guys just don't get what I am trying to do.


Oil tank is mounted more or less


Seats will be mounted next while the suspension gets finished up (hopefully) and a few more items to mount (shifter, cooling system, fluid coolers, and such). So a couple more weeks I should be able to trailer this home to start a custom wiring harness, run all the brake and fuel lines and plumb the dry sump system. I am hopeful I am only a month away from getting this thing started again. It is a long shot, but if AJ can wrap up in a couple of weeks, I may take a week off of work (I need the break) and just hammer away at this thing.

[Aaron Cox]

lookin good!

[turbo914v8]

Excellent progress. It looks like your almost finished. I don’t what I am going to do when you’re all done and your updates end?????? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) Maybe watch more T.V. Maybe I will start working on my ride. Now there’s a though. I have a question for you. In your previous picture of the oilcan, standing on end is what appears to be your rear stub axel. Can you provide details regarding that part? What car is it from? Part number? I know that you have the 930 CV's and I am wondering what parts you used to connected the 930 CV's through the stock 914-swing arm with no adaptors.

[914-8]

Very cool!

You definately were right about the firewall!

[Brett W]

TIm you need to watch your toe change on the rear suspension. With the link going towards the firewall you will see an unusually high amount of toe change in bump droop and roll. You have compounded the movement of the wheel by adding that link.

I looked at doing something similar on my car in the early stages because it is easiy to package. You will also see a jerky rate of camber gain with such a short upper arm. It would be better if you could mount it somewhere over or near the tranny.

I know you are concerned with safety, but using .090+ for the floor pans is insane. Look at the thickness of the factory sheetmetal. I would go a little thinner as you are just using it to keep the dirt out. The tubing is providing the real protection.

[byndbad914]

In your previous picture of the oilcan, standing on end is what appears to be your rear stub axel. Can you provide details regarding that part? What car is it from? Part number? I know that you have the 930 CV's and I am wondering what parts you used to connected the 930 CV's through the stock 914-swing arm with no adaptors.

I thought someone may wonder what that was... actually that isn't off of my car (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) They were working on the Thing next to mine and I think one of the guys picked it up off the ground and thought it was mine. I just left it there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

As for my setup specifically, I have Turbo Carrera axles and hubs. Talk to Jim at Patrick Motorsports for all the specifics, but he sells some simple spacers that go in the mix to make the longer Carrera stub axles and hubs work with the narrower, stock 914 wheel bearings. Works really slick. The axles can be bought new with the stub axles as an integral part. Then you just need Carrera hubs, his spacers and it all goes together. And the Carrera CVs bolt directly to the 930. He gave me a matching price on the parts (to Pelican's prices which were cheaper when I bought my stuff - don't know about now) when I bought the flanges and spacers from him.

Brett - The toe change shouldn't be too bad over a couple inches of bump - but that is left to be seen. All the links are adjustable, and I have to mess with the caster angle of the rear to tune it out. It shouldn't be anywhere near as bad as the trailing arms were. Also, camber gain is relative between the length of the upper and lower - so it is a short upper, but somewhat short lowers. I calculate 1 degree gain at 2" of bump and 1.5deg at 3" of bump. After that I drag the car on the ground, so gain becomes irrelevant. Remember, any suspension design will work if you stop it from moving (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

But good eye as it looks to be really short, but the tube diam and rod ends can be deceiving - it is around 8-3/8" long and the bottoms are like 9 - 9-1/2" long IIRC.