 Are roller bearings really that great?, anyone out there with some experience? |
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| SirAndy |
  Jun 23 2006, 01:54 PM
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#1
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Resident German  Group: Admin Posts: 41,651 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California  |
are roller bearings really that great? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
- anyone out there with some experience? preferably someone who did a install himself. and has driven some cars to compare. - is the install really that hard? - what about dirt getting into the bearings? - change of effective springrate due to not fighting sticky rubber bushings anymore? - got pics? i still got my set (rears) in the box, they'll be going on the new trailing arms ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) Andy |
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| Mueller |
Jun 23 2006, 02:18 PM
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#2
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,146 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None 
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| kdfoust |
Jun 23 2006, 02:27 PM
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#3
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 694 Joined: 2-January 03 From: Riverside Member No.: 71 Region Association: Southern California |
I've got needle bearings in both front and rear. I don't think that the installation is that big a deal. The only special thing I did was for the rear. I made a big jack screw for pushing the outer bearing race into the trailing arm. I'll put some pictures of it up when I get home. Basically it's patient work.
The a-arms and trailing arms now move slicker than snot on a brass door knob. With no strut or ARB I can move the a-arms with one finger through the entire range of motion. Same for the rear trailing arms. The change was dramatic in my car BUT the OE rubber bushings were completely shot in the rear and pretty aged in the front. If I were going to need to setup another car I'd probably go to the Elephant racing bronze bushings. I've not had any trouble with the needle bearings yet but I've only just begun to abuse the car with them installed. The reason I would switch is that I'm concerned about the lack of external grease fittings on the bearings and I feel like the bushing will be a little more robust in the suspension environment. At the end of this season (like in December) I'll be tearing the suspension down to do a C&I on the bearings. I'll let you know how things look then. I don't know if you've seen the Delrin bushings but IMO they are junk. Wrong material for the application and not accurately sized or even round. That leaves bronze, needle, or OE rubber as the reasonable choices. Later, Kevin |
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| Brad Roberts |
Jun 23 2006, 03:32 PM
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#4
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
We are up to 4 years now with no grease needed or installed on a car that sees double duty as a street car and a race car.
I first pulled it apart in front of Jeroen and placed a new bearing next to the used bearing that came out of the car... couldnt tell the difference. They had been in the car for 2+ years at that point. The car gets beat on. Multiple drivers, multiple events, fun runs. 220+hp 3.0 9146, caged and big brakes They work. Not the easiest install, but the results rock. Porsche utilizes monoballs in all of their factory race cars. This is a little tough to do with the rear of a 914 and semi cost prohibitive on the front of a 914. This is THE next best solution. I beleive the Poly bronze setup has a place in this particular market space. It is not roller bearing, but it is leaps and bounds better than the Poly setup. B |
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| Brad Roberts |
Jun 23 2006, 03:33 PM
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#5
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
Ira from Tarett engineering has one roller bearing kit left in stock for a 914.
AFAIK Mueller wont be producing them again unless demand calls for it. B |
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| kdfoust |
Jun 23 2006, 05:15 PM
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#6
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 694 Joined: 2-January 03 From: Riverside Member No.: 71 Region Association: Southern California |
QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Jun 23 2006, 02:32 PM)  <SNIP> We are up to 4 years now with no grease needed or installed on a car that sees double duty as a street car and a race car. I first pulled it apart in front of Jeroen and placed a new bearing next to the used bearing that came out of the car... couldnt tell the difference. They had been in the car for 2+ years at that point. The car gets beat on. Multiple drivers, multiple events, fun runs. <SNIP> (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif) That's good to hear. Even when I bought these I had reservations about the durability in this application. I don't think the Elephant bronze bushing were available at the time I purchased these. Later, Kevin Here's the setup I used to assemble the rear bearing race into the trailing arm... Big jack screw, grease, and heat on the trailing arm housing.  Note the setup here. 5/8 FINE thread rod and thrust bearing sandwiched in there. I'd hate to pull that race through the arm without the thrust bearings because the torque was pretty high at times. Both ends of the threaded rod were tooled up the same.  |
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| Mueller |
Jun 23 2006, 05:59 PM
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#7
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 17,146 Joined: 4-January 03 From: Antioch, CA Member No.: 87 Region Association: None
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I think Kevins biggest problem was terrible customer service from me...Sorry Kevin, i still owe you for that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Andy, I can press the tubes into your trailing arms, it'll take just a few minutes per side. |
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| 914werke |
Jun 23 2006, 06:07 PM
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#8
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"I got blisters on me fingers" Group: Members Posts: 10,083 Joined: 22-March 03 From: USofA Member No.: 453 Region Association: Pacific Northwest
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Ive put them together but have yet to experiance them on my car.
Pressing the sleave in the arms is THE hardest part. the first one I tried using a BFH (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) it went in but it was a BEYATCH (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) The second one I smartened up went over and used a Hyd. press at a friend machine shop and it went in like butta (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Grease retention seems to be the only design flaw. Mikes silicone solution works but it isnt pretty. I looked arounfd for some heat shrink tubing large enough but never found any. I did come up with a set of rubber bands used to protect new door hinges (about 1-2" wide) that seem to do the trick nicley. |
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| McMark |
Jun 23 2006, 06:15 PM
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#9
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914 Freak! Group: Retired Admin Posts: 20,179 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 419 Region Association: None |
How timely Andy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I just finished installing a set on a customer car. I met Mike at his house and we did the prep work together. Things went together pretty damn smooth and without incident. Installation back on the car was a breeze. I just got the car back on the ground yesterday and took it out for a test drive. I could feel the difference within 20 feet!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) Driving around you can really really feel the difference. Bumps in the road that used to be abrupt and jarring are now smooth. It's like going from a square wave to a sine wave. The bumps are still there, but they don't hit like they used too. I am such a believer in this upgrade, even for street cars (maybe even especially for street cars, since it makes daily driving soooo smooth). The bearings are completely sealed from dirt if you follow Mikes instructions. This car had perfectly good stock bushings in place two weeks ago. This upgrade was from perfectly good stock bushings to rollers. Mmmmm, roller bearings. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)  |
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| olav |
Jun 23 2006, 06:31 PM
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#10
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Senior Member Group: Retired Members Posts: 1,107 Joined: 28-December 02 From: Los Gatos, CA. USA Member No.: 34 Region Association: None |
Hey Andy,
I thought you drove a car set up with roller bearings at an autoX event and while everyone was complaining about a certain bump at a turn you were saying that you never felt a thing. That was you right? |
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| cha914 |
Jun 23 2006, 06:41 PM
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#11
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MUSR 8 - 5lug conversion done wed - drive 500miles thrus Group: Members Posts: 739 Joined: 31-December 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 63 |
I have installed the rears on my car, was able to do the install in under 4hrs, with no press, sounds like I got lucky as the tubes were able to be hammered in. I am running 175# springs in the rear with koni adj's all around, didn't notice a major diff in the spring rate (however the polys I had in the rear were loose, not tight) but I did notice that the rear felt like it was actually "working" for a change, and the car is much more stable in the corners.
Only have had them in for 6-8mo now, will prob give them a look when I go 5 lug in the next few months, and I hope to upgrade the front at the same time to the rollers, if Mike or someone still has a set lying around...hint, hint.. Tony |
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| Brad Roberts |
Jun 23 2006, 06:44 PM
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#12
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
That was me at 3com park in the car I mentioned above.
Everyone was hitting the dip and complaining.. I glided over it. The roller setup is the single best suspension improvement you can do to the 914. People who have never driven one.. will never know. It will take a car with 22mm torsions and 275lb rear springs and 31mm front sway bar, RSR valved Bilsteins and make it ride like a Cadillac. I gurantee faster lap times at every track. 1-2seconds or I'll buy the kit back from you and send you replacment control arms. The cars are THAT different! B |
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| kdfoust |
Jun 23 2006, 06:51 PM
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#13
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 694 Joined: 2-January 03 From: Riverside Member No.: 71 Region Association: Southern California |
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jun 23 2006, 04:59 PM) I think Kevins biggest problem was terrible customer service from me...Sorry Kevin, i still owe you for that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) Andy, I can press the tubes into your trailing arms, it'll take just a few minutes per side. Good god. Hardly even a bump the road of my 914 adventure. Fugitaboutit. Really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) Back to your regularly scheduled programming... Later, Kevin |
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| Andyrew |
Jun 23 2006, 07:03 PM
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#14
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Spooling.... Please wait Group: Members Posts: 13,376 Joined: 20-January 03 From: Riverbank, Ca Member No.: 172 Region Association: Northern California
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QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Jun 23 2006, 05:44 PM) That was me at 3com park in the car I mentioned above. Everyone was hitting the dip and complaining.. I glided over it. The roller setup is the single best suspension improvement you can do to the 914. People who have never driven one.. will never know. It will take a car with 22mm torsions and 275lb rear springs and 31mm front sway bar, RSR valved Bilsteins and make it ride like a Cadillac. I gurantee faster lap times at every track. 1-2seconds or I'll buy the kit back from you and send you replacment control arms. The cars are THAT different! B Um... Brad... you just labeled my car, only I have koni's... Andy.. I have 17's and 18's on the car. when I hit speed bumps and such. the suspension moves WITH the road, Yes, I can feel the bump... but it is SO much less noticable... There is no jolts to the suspension anymore.. I can drive on and off the curbs without breaking my back... the car just tilts and untilts... This is with 275's on the rear... Unfortunately I have not taken a corner with it, because I dont have a front sway bar in it.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (well, I dont have the arms in..) andrew |
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| J P Stein |
Jun 23 2006, 07:52 PM
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#15
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Irrelevant old fart Group: Members Posts: 8,797 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Vancouver, WA Member No.: 45 Region Association: None |
I would suggest that ya'll avoid them needle bearings...specially if you're going to run at the WCC or Parade AX......they sux...trust me.
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| olav |
Jun 23 2006, 08:09 PM
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#16
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Senior Member Group: Retired Members Posts: 1,107 Joined: 28-December 02 From: Los Gatos, CA. USA Member No.: 34 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(J P Stein @ Jun 23 2006, 06:52 PM) I would suggest that ya'll avoid them needle bearings...specially if you're going to run at the WCC or Parade AX......they sux...trust me. Oh, really? Ok, thanks for the warning. I appreciate you looking out for us. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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| olav |
Jun 23 2006, 08:10 PM
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#17
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Senior Member Group: Retired Members Posts: 1,107 Joined: 28-December 02 From: Los Gatos, CA. USA Member No.: 34 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Jun 23 2006, 05:44 PM) That was me at 3com park in the car I mentioned above. Everyone was hitting the dip and complaining.. I glided over it. The roller setup is the single best suspension improvement you can do to the 914. People who have never driven one.. will never know. It will take a car with 22mm torsions and 275lb rear springs and 31mm front sway bar, RSR valved Bilsteins and make it ride like a Cadillac. I gurantee faster lap times at every track. 1-2seconds or I'll buy the kit back from you and send you replacment control arms. The cars are THAT different! B I always get you guys mixed up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) |
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| SirAndy |
Jun 23 2006, 08:21 PM
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#18
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,651 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(olav @ Jun 23 2006, 07:10 PM) I always get you guys mixed up. actually, you didn't ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) i told you about the AX in stockton when i drove scott's 3.0L ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Andy |
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| olav |
Jun 23 2006, 08:26 PM
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#19
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Senior Member Group: Retired Members Posts: 1,107 Joined: 28-December 02 From: Los Gatos, CA. USA Member No.: 34 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jun 23 2006, 07:21 PM) QUOTE(olav @ Jun 23 2006, 07:10 PM) I always get you guys mixed up. actually, you didn't ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) i told you about the AX in stockton when i drove scott's 3.0L ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Andy Oh, good. I wasn't going crazy. |
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| Andyrew |
Jun 23 2006, 08:27 PM
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#20
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Spooling.... Please wait Group: Members Posts: 13,376 Joined: 20-January 03 From: Riverbank, Ca Member No.: 172 Region Association: Northern California
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Was that the one I was at too? I remember that was the first outing with my car..
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