are roller bearings really that great?


- anyone out there with some experience? preferably someone who did a install himself. and has driven some cars to compare.
- is the install really that hard?
- what about dirt getting into the bearings?
- change of effective springrate due to not fighting sticky rubber bushings anymore?
- got pics?


i still got my set (rears) in the box, they'll be going on the new trailing arms ...
Andy

they suck

by the way, the rear have o-rings.....

I've got needle bearings in both front and rear. I don't think that the installation is that big a deal. The only special thing I did was for the rear. I made a big jack screw for pushing the outer bearing race into the trailing arm. I'll put some pictures of it up when I get home. Basically it's patient work.

The a-arms and trailing arms now move slicker than snot on a brass door knob. With no strut or ARB I can move the a-arms with one finger through the entire range of motion. Same for the rear trailing arms. The change was dramatic in my car BUT the OE rubber bushings were completely shot in the rear and pretty aged in the front.

If I were going to need to setup another car I'd probably go to the Elephant racing bronze bushings. I've not had any trouble with the needle bearings yet but I've only just begun to abuse the car with them installed. The reason I would switch is that I'm concerned about the lack of external grease fittings on the bearings and I feel like the bushing will be a little more robust in the suspension environment. At the end of this season (like in December) I'll be tearing the suspension down to do a C&I on the bearings. I'll let you know how things look then.

I don't know if you've seen the Delrin bushings but IMO they are junk. Wrong material for the application and not accurately sized or even round. That leaves bronze, needle, or OE rubber as the reasonable choices.

Later,
Kevin

We are up to 4 years now with no grease needed or installed on a car that sees double duty as a street car and a race car.

I first pulled it apart in front of Jeroen and placed a new bearing next to the used bearing that came out of the car... couldnt tell the difference. They had been in the car for 2+ years at that point.

The car gets beat on. Multiple drivers, multiple events, fun runs.

220+hp 3.0 9146, caged and big brakes

They work. Not the easiest install, but the results rock.

Porsche utilizes monoballs in all of their factory race cars. This is a little tough to do with the rear of a 914 and semi cost prohibitive on the front of a 914.

This is THE next best solution.

I beleive the Poly bronze setup has a place in this particular market space. It is not roller bearing, but it is leaps and bounds better than the Poly setup.


B

Ira from Tarett engineering has one roller bearing kit left in stock for a 914.

AFAIK Mueller wont be producing them again unless demand calls for it.

B

That's good to hear. Even when I bought these I had reservations about the durability in this application. I don't think the Elephant bronze bushing were available at the time I purchased these.

Later,
Kevin

Here's the setup I used to assemble the rear bearing race into the trailing arm...

Big jack screw, grease, and heat on the trailing arm housing.
Click to view attachment

Note the setup here. 5/8 FINE thread rod and thrust bearing sandwiched in there. I'd hate to pull that race through the arm without the thrust bearings because the torque was pretty high at times. Both ends of the threaded rod were tooled up the same.
Click to view attachment

I think Kevins biggest problem was terrible customer service from me...Sorry Kevin, i still owe you for that

Andy,

I can press the tubes into your trailing arms, it'll take just a few minutes per side.

Ive put them together but have yet to experiance them on my car.
Pressing the sleave in the arms is THE hardest part.
the first one I tried using a BFH it went in but it was a BEYATCH
The second one I smartened up went over and used a Hyd. press at a friend machine shop and it went in like butta
Grease retention seems to be the only design flaw. Mikes silicone solution works but it isnt pretty. I looked arounfd for some heat shrink tubing large enough but never found any. I did come up with a set of rubber bands used to protect new door hinges (about 1-2" wide) that seem to do the trick nicley.

How timely Andy!

I just finished installing a set on a customer car. I met Mike at his house and we did the prep work together. Things went together pretty damn smooth and without incident. Installation back on the car was a breeze. I just got the car back on the ground yesterday and took it out for a test drive. I could feel the difference within 20 feet!!! Driving around you can really really feel the difference. Bumps in the road that used to be abrupt and jarring are now smooth. It's like going from a square wave to a sine wave. The bumps are still there, but they don't hit like they used too. I am such a believer in this upgrade, even for street cars (maybe even especially for street cars, since it makes daily driving soooo smooth). The bearings are completely sealed from dirt if you follow Mikes instructions. This car had perfectly good stock bushings in place two weeks ago. This upgrade was from perfectly good stock bushings to rollers. Mmmmm, roller bearings.

Click to view attachment

Hey Andy,

I thought you drove a car set up with roller bearings at an autoX event and while everyone was complaining about a certain bump at a turn you were saying that you never felt a thing.

That was you right?

I have installed the rears on my car, was able to do the install in under 4hrs, with no press, sounds like I got lucky as the tubes were able to be hammered in. I am running 175# springs in the rear with koni adj's all around, didn't notice a major diff in the spring rate (however the polys I had in the rear were loose, not tight) but I did notice that the rear felt like it was actually "working" for a change, and the car is much more stable in the corners.

Only have had them in for 6-8mo now, will prob give them a look when I go 5 lug in the next few months, and I hope to upgrade the front at the same time to the rollers, if Mike or someone still has a set lying around...hint, hint..

Tony

That was me at 3com park in the car I mentioned above.

Everyone was hitting the dip and complaining.. I glided over it.

The roller setup is the single best suspension improvement you can do to the 914.

People who have never driven one.. will never know.

It will take a car with 22mm torsions and 275lb rear springs and 31mm front sway bar, RSR valved Bilsteins and make it ride like a Cadillac.

I gurantee faster lap times at every track. 1-2seconds or I'll buy the kit back from you and send you replacment control arms.

The cars are THAT different!


B

Good god. Hardly even a bump the road of my 914 adventure. Fugitaboutit. Really.


Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Later,
Kevin

Um... Brad... you just labeled my car, only I have koni's...


Andy.. I have 17's and 18's on the car. when I hit speed bumps and such. the suspension moves WITH the road, Yes, I can feel the bump... but it is SO much less noticable...

There is no jolts to the suspension anymore.. I can drive on and off the curbs without breaking my back... the car just tilts and untilts...

This is with 275's on the rear...

Unfortunately I have not taken a corner with it, because I dont have a front sway bar in it.... (well, I dont have the arms in..)

andrew

I would suggest that ya'll avoid them needle bearings...specially if you're going to run at the WCC or Parade AX......they sux...trust me.

Oh, really? Ok, thanks for the warning. I appreciate you looking out for us.

I always get you guys mixed up.

actually, you didn't ...

i told you about the AX in stockton when i drove scott's 3.0L ...
Andy

Oh, good. I wasn't going crazy.

Was that the one I was at too? I remember that was the first outing with my car..

Why do I suddenly feel like I'm watching late night TV? Do you have a dog named Spot? My car is getting a lot of work done and I'm pretty sure it just got polybronze, I'll check Monday. I don't like being clueless but I'm that busy at work.

I have Mike's bearings on the front and they are very slick. The back still has regular Weltmeister type bushings and hasn't been apart in a couple of years but I might look at the polybronze for that end.

mabe I could get rid of the 450# and 350# springs in my car if I got something that let the suspension work the way it should

what constitutes "demand"? I want 'em (fr + rr). $900? Anyone else?

I went with the poly/bronze as they are $100 cheaper and Mueller was out of roller bearings when I wanted some.

I still need to do the rears so maybe if Mueller does another run for the BBS store????

ChrisC,

Then why does Chuck use a picture of your car for all his ads? LOL

I had no idea you didnt have poly bronze in your car!

I knew it had roller front.



B

Needle brgs *should* migrate around their cage thus presenting different rollers to the loaded (uppermost) areas....that coupled with the tight clearances of Mike's set-up
don't allow much "slop".

The polly bronze presents the same area to load constantly.....same as the plastic jobbies that wear oblong given a year or two...BTDT took pics.


oh.....them needles still ain't worth spit

I will agree with everyone here, JP's car has them front and rear and it really evens out the bumps on the harsh surface up here at PIR. I am trying to get a passenger seat from Craig so that we can put it in JP's car and take people from rides...you can take a ride on them rollers then.

-Britain

Damnit kid, the company line here is "they ain't worth spit".

Yea, I am torn. Don't worry, no one will even come close.

-Britain

I wanted to bring this thread back from the dead, stimulate some action or more discussion, and let Mike & Brad know WHEN THEY ARE READY to make more of the front and rear roller bearings I AM READY to get a set

updates? any extras in your garage?

I made a few sets awhile ago, just the rears though. It wasnt too hard.
A couple memebers here got a set and I ebayed the rest. I still have some of the end studs available/ free if you want some. You would need to source everything else out and have or know some one with a machine shop.
A few of the supplies:
25mm stainless steel rod
Nadella needle bearings 25mm ID
Thrust washers
End studs
Outer steel pipe that the bearing slips into. I dont recall the diameter and wall thickness.

Anyone used the Shine set? (scroll all the way down)
http://www.srsvw.com/parts/partlist.asp?na...amp;ptid=1&

I've used some of their stuff on my VW and the build quality was ok.

SMD

dont harleys use a needle bearing in the suspension pivot?
if what i've been told is correct, that bearing can wear notches in the race from the bearing 'not' migrating. Resulting in a washboard surface on the inside of the race. Once you get a wear groove started then the bearing definitely will not migrate. The small contact area of the needles could contribute to this no?

maybe?
definitely not?

736 - thanks for the inspiration, but my skills and tools are not up to the task.

SMD - nice to see other options! Those cost more than what I've been *told* the ones from our west coast 914club guys will cost.

I've seen a recent install with grease fittings, and if the bearing was properly lubed and functional it would be free to spin inside both races without causing grooves. Winter will bring more tear-downs and rebuilds, and I'm sure there will be some more reports on the wear characteristics. Ok, back to waiting for a production update....

me too ... i just installed a set of mueller rears, haven't driven the car yet, so no comments,
*but* i have driven other 914s with full sets of muellers bearings and the ride was exceptional ...

now, i still need a set for the front, i'm sitting here, $$$ in my hands ... you reading this mueller?
Andy

I was the proud winner of a front set at the WCC last year. I found the hardest part of the install to be the teardown. Putting it together was easy and Milke provided online support via the club (Thanks Mike). I made several changes at the same time (Five lug, turbo tierods, wheels and tires), so it was hard for me to guage the difference. I will say that i am very happy with the way my car handles these days. I had the car on a lift last weekend and an external inspection looked very good. I tried to move the A-arms and found no play in the bushings. Everything looks good after a flat tow x-country, a few ax's and 6 months of the streets of Jersey. I plan on pulling them for inspection in the next few months and will report the status.

Here is a like to my install Mueller bearing install and 5 lug conversion

I also would be interested in a matching set for the rear

Me three!

I need a full set....

Here are some pictures of my trailing arms after the Chris Foley (strengthening) and Mike Mueller (bearings) treatments. I really like the extra work performed by both Chris and Mike.

While the installation of the bearings is fairly straight forward, it is important to be sure the bearings don't rotate in the tubes. We did some blueprinting to be sure the crush on the bearings, relative to the tubes was correct.

We also installed different grease seals.

With all the special work these trailing arms tooksome time, but together with the new "Porsche" U joints, will be pretty nice on the little silver machine.

The rotation on the trailing arms is soooooooo smooth & tight.

Click to view attachment

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