Off track excursions, Are they a measure of improvement? Options

[Don Wohlfarth]

Not trying to start a war, just adding a differnt perspective....
A well set up 914 with a "almost" stock engine and 205's is fun to drive.
What makes a 914 so much fun is the mid engine, allowing low polar movement. It can be a stretch to get to the limit. Problem is when you go over the limit it will spin in a heart beat and can be very, very difficult to catch. Now add in 2 or 3 times the original power...heavy suspension...bigger tires...car can handle like it's on rails...until you go over the limit.
You have to become very familar with your car as you have to anticipate the back end coming around. A little counter steer, maybe a very slight breathing of the throttle, you MAY have a chance to catch it.

[SandyI]

Not trying to start a war, just adding a differnt perspective....
A well set up 914 with a "almost" stock engine and 205's is fun to drive.
What makes a 914 so much fun is the mid engine, allowing low polar movement. It can be a stretch to get to the limit. Problem is when you go over the limit it will spin in a heart beat and can be very, very difficult to catch. Now add in 2 or 3 times the original power...heavy suspension...bigger tires...car can handle like it's on rails...until you go over the limit.
You have to become very familar with your car as you have to anticipate the back end coming around. A little counter steer, maybe a very slight breathing of the throttle, you MAY have a chance to catch it.

You're absolutely right, Don. The more seat time I get in my 914/3.2, the more I learn. Plus, I've got a secret weapon -- OTTO! He helps my car go fast in his shop and helps me go fast at the track.

[grantsfo]

Not trying to start a war, just adding a differnt perspective....
A well set up 914 with a "almost" stock engine and 205's is fun to drive.
What makes a 914 so much fun is the mid engine, allowing low polar movement. It can be a stretch to get to the limit. Problem is when you go over the limit it will spin in a heart beat and can be very, very difficult to catch. Now add in 2 or 3 times the original power...heavy suspension...bigger tires...car can handle like it's on rails...until you go over the limit.
You have to become very familar with your car as you have to anticipate the back end coming around. A little counter steer, maybe a very slight breathing of the throttle, you MAY have a chance to catch it.

You're absolutely right, Don. The more seat time I get in my 914/3.2, the more I learn. Plus, I've got a secret weapon -- OTTO! He helps my car go fast in his shop and helps me go fast at the track.

Say hi to John. He was my best instructor ever. He would like my new 914-6

[nine14cats]

Hi Don,

I was talking with Rich Bontempi of HPH and he said the exact same thing as you, when you get the 914 to the limit, it likes to spin like a top, and Rich says that while the 911's have the rap for snap oversteer, he thinks the 914's are much harder to catch and correct.

Greg,

I would have to say that driving the 911 I have now versus the 914-6 I had is "easier" to drive at speed. I have been looking at my in car videos of the same tracks driiving the 914 and then the 911, and I am not as busy in the car. The 914-6 was 237HP at the crank on 2000lbs. The 911 is 300 HP at the crank with 2400lbs. But at speed, the 911 is much more stable, both aerodynamically and in turns, not as twitchy. I love the 914's handling through turns and the esses, but I'm just as fast through most of that stuff with my 911 and much faster in the straights and under hard braking.

B,

I agree with you that I'm in a comfort zone on most of my lines. But even in Time Trials, I'm actually running racing lines in several spots. I usually download the PRC Toyo Cup race videos and watch them and compare against my Time Trial lines. I have actually changed some lines and found them to be just as fast and they give me another way through a turn for example.

I am experimenting for my next step to door to door. I plan on the door to door stuff in 2007. I just have to start the licensing process.

Thanks,

Bill P.

[kdfoust]

The clearest message I've ever got from a professional driver is:
"Going fast is never comfortable. You'll be working when the car is at the limit."

I'm finding this true from my in-car video. On record pace laps I'm not just sitting there holding the wheel going around a corner, I'm catching, correcting, countering, grooving, ... It's completely satisifying to me to run at that high personal level and I learn more about the car during those times.

All that said, I've never learned anything from a spin or off. Overcooked is overcooked.

Later,
Kevin

[grantsfo]

Hi Don,

I was talking with Rich Bontempi of HPH and he said the exact same thing as you, when you get the 914 to the limit, it likes to spin like a top, and Rich says that while the 911's have the rap for snap oversteer, he thinks the 914's are much harder to catch and correct.

Greg,

I would have to say that driving the 911 I have now versus the 914-6 I had is "easier" to drive at speed. I have been looking at my in car videos of the same tracks driiving the 914 and then the 911, and I am not as busy in the car. The 914-6 was 237HP at the crank on 2000lbs. The 911 is 300 HP at the crank with 2400lbs. But at speed, the 911 is much more stable, both aerodynamically and in turns, not as twitchy. I love the 914's handling through turns and the esses, but I'm just as fast through most of that stuff with my 911 and much faster in the straights and under hard braking.

B,

I agree with you that I'm in a comfort zone on most of my lines. But even in Time Trials, I'm actually running racing lines in several spots. I usually download the PRC Toyo Cup race videos and watch them and compare against my Time Trial lines. I have actually changed some lines and found them to be just as fast and they give me another way through a turn for example.

I am experimenting for my next step to door to door. I plan on the door to door stuff in 2007. I just have to start the licensing process.

Thanks,

Bill P.

I learned this when I was 17 years old. Driving my dad's 71 914 on skinny 165 Michelins around a damp sweeper in the Santa Cruz mountains back in the 70's. Flew into the corner lifted and the car was spinning before I knew it. I managed to keep it on the road and have never told my dad to this date! Oh yeah my 12 year old sister was in te car with me and used that incident to bribe me until I moved out of the house!

[Trekkor]

I'll be at Sears in a couple of weeks and I think the only places I'd pick to go off would be 4-7. Everywhere else is trouble. Especially 10. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

So far no close calls there.
A little late braking into the carousel once.


KT

[Trekkor]

At the 7/21 event at Sears I came into 4 WAY too hot and went straight off.

Ran the turn in the dirt one car width around and came back on after the exit berm.

No problems. Didn't even pop a dzus on the Sweeper Dam™.


KT

[Trekkor]

"measure of improvement"?

I'd say if you can push to edge in a "safe" portion of the track, yes.
Searching for a deeper braking zone or faster speeds in an area where mistakes are forgiven is a "yes".

Pushing it in turns 10,11 or 1 at Sears would not be smart.


KT

[groot]

Measuring improvement my counting off-track excursions is a pretty crude measuring device. Some people claim they're searching for the limit and sometimes that means going over it. While I understand and agree with what they're saying, it doesn't mean you have to go off the track. I'm a bit more cautious than that.

The best way I've found for measuring improvement and/or comparing your driving to other is data acquisition. Highly recommended........

[drew365]

The best way I've found for measuring improvement and/or comparing your driving to other is data acquisition. Highly recommended........

Now that I have my fuel cell in, data acquisition and in car camera setup is my next upgrade.
I don't worry about spinning as long as I know why it happened. I feel I do learn something in those situations. I had a big off in T9 at Laguna Seca the last time I was there and I'm still not sure why. That will weigh heavily in the back of my mind when we go there in three weeks.

[ryap]

I like your approach - go faster, little by little. That's how I do it. Eventually you will get to the limit at a particular point on the track. Then work on another corner and keep doing that until you've reached the limit everywhere on the track. Then you'll be fast. Usually when you go off, you blow right by the limit and you won't be learning what the limit feels like. That's not to say you'll never go off when you try to approach the limits slowly, but you'll have less offs. Sometimes going off slows you down for a while. It's hard to get back up to where you were.

The key is recognizing the limit. Once you're at the limit in one corner or part of a corner, don't keep trying to go faster there, work on another corner.

Rick