 WOT: Landis Didn't Dope, Accurate Testing Procedures In Doubt? |
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| Midtowner |
 Jul 28 2006, 12:01 PM
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#1
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Ooooo!  Group: Members Posts: 652 Joined: 21-December 04 From: Sunnyvale, CA Member No.: 3,316 Region Association: None  |
Landis wouldn't be that stupid to dope. I don't believe what I read. Your thougths? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14059185/ |
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| Flat VW |
Jul 28 2006, 12:47 PM
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#2
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Illegal Soapbox Derby Racecar Group: Members Posts: 1,692 Joined: 13-November 04 From: Phoenix, AZ Member No.: 3,105 |
Is Ullrich that stupid?
Is Basso that stupid? and the others too? John P.S. There seems to be a preponderance of 'stupid' bike jockeys lately.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shocked[1].gif) |
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| lapuwali |
Jul 28 2006, 12:51 PM
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#3
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Not another one! Group: Benefactors Posts: 4,526 Joined: 1-March 04 From: San Mateo, CA Member No.: 1,743  |
It's a pretty sad situation. The entire thing is guilty until proven innocent, for everyone, including Ulrich and Basso.
If the ICU can't get their shit together and come up with better procedures, then I think Landis, Ullrich, Basso, and Armstrong should get together and start a new sanctioning body for bike racing, with rules that presume innocence until guilt can be proven. Get enough of the top riders to agree and switch, and I'll bet they can get L'Equipe and the backers of the Giro to switch to them, rather than stick with the ICU, which is clearly run by idiots. |
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| Flat VW |
Jul 28 2006, 12:58 PM
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#4
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Illegal Soapbox Derby Racecar Group: Members Posts: 1,692 Joined: 13-November 04 From: Phoenix, AZ Member No.: 3,105 |
What motive is there for the the ICU in regard to 'false positives' of it's most elite riders?
It can't be helping the sport? John (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif) |
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| TROJANMAN |
Jul 28 2006, 01:10 PM
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#5
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Looks nice in pictures......... Group: Members Posts: 5,269 Joined: 5-March 04 From: Colorado Member No.: 1,753 Region Association: None |
according to the report ESPN gave this morning, i expect him to be cleared. Apparently his testosterone level wasn't high, it was his epitestosterone that was too low, which gave him some wacked out ratio that is beyond the ICU standard.
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| tat2dphreak |
Jul 28 2006, 01:51 PM
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#6
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stoya, stoya, stoya Group: Benefactors Posts: 8,797 Joined: 6-June 03 From: Wylie, TX Member No.: 792 Region Association: Southwest Region |
OJ didn't kill the bitch either...
there were 2 gunmen on the grassy knoll and Andrea Yates is not responsible... it's one thing when they wait 5 years and say "this guy was doping back then..." it's another when it's a few days after the event and the guy looks like kid rock |
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| michel richard |
Jul 28 2006, 02:01 PM
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#7
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,291 Joined: 22-July 03 From: Longueuil, Québec Member No.: 936 |
I don't buy the guilty until proven innocent complaint.
The guy gave a sample on July 17. A professional, independent, disinterested laboratory said that the sample contained evidence that Landis used illegal performance enhancing material. The chances that the second sample (or rather the second half of the same sample) will yield different results are slim at best. What remains are super-remote scenarios where there is another explanation. I don't know with 100% certainty whether the guy took illegal drugs or not, I am not his shadow. I do believe that it is highly likely that he did, and that we can't have a full jury trial every time something like this comes up. Michel Richard |
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| gopack |
Jul 28 2006, 02:06 PM
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#8
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CHEESEHEAD in CA, MARK Group: Members Posts: 744 Joined: 7-August 04 From: Folsom, CA Member No.: 2,472 Region Association: Northern California |
I'm no expert, and maybe some of the doctors here can help us out, but i can't see how taking testosterone after a bad day will help him have a better day the next day. (unless he grew new testicles!). testosterone will help you GROW big strong muscles, but it sure doesn't happen overnight! Now what i do not know is if there is some performance enhancer that you could take for a quick jolt that causes testosterone levels to be high.
Is it possible that "manning up" and just gutting out an unbeleiveable performance will cause your hormone levesl to be out of whack? Enquiring minds wnat to know. |
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| grantsfo |
Jul 28 2006, 02:13 PM
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#9
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(michel richard @ Jul 28 2006, 01:01 PM)  I don't buy the guilty until proven innocent complaint. The guy gave a sample on July 17. A professional, independent, disinterested laboratory said that the sample contained evidence that Landis used illegal performance enhancing material. The chances that the second sample (or rather the second half of the same sample) will yield different results are slim at best. What remains are super-remote scenarios where there is another explanation. I don't know with 100% certainty whether the guy took illegal drugs or not, I am not his shadow. I do believe that it is highly likely that he did, and that we can't have a full jury trial every time something like this comes up. Michel Richard ...and which material would that have been? Testing procedures and parameters set related to hormones in cycling have always been suspect. |
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| URY914 |
Jul 28 2006, 02:15 PM
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#10
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I built the lightest 914 in the history of mankind. Group: Members Posts: 120,544 Joined: 3-February 03 From: Jacksonville, FL Member No.: 222 Region Association: None |
Did he get a hot beef injection before the test? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
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| Flat VW |
Jul 28 2006, 02:19 PM
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#11
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Illegal Soapbox Derby Racecar Group: Members Posts: 1,692 Joined: 13-November 04 From: Phoenix, AZ Member No.: 3,105 |
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| michel richard |
Jul 28 2006, 02:21 PM
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#12
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,291 Joined: 22-July 03 From: Longueuil, Québec Member No.: 936 |
Mark,
You are bang-on. One very knowledgeable reporter in this morning's paper here explained exactly that. His point was, however, that these guys are all on "cocktails" and he speculated that his system may have been unbalanced one way on the 16th ( he lost a ton of time) and the other way the 17th ( he gained a ton of time, but tested positive). And it is apparently pretty safe to assume that all the top riders are on one or another of these "special preparation programs". The other info we got was that the thing about the hip treatment and other medication he takes have absolutely nothing to do with testosterone levels. It's like saying I got the flu because my neighbor fixed his leaking faucet i.e. no relationship. The one explanation could be that Landis naturally has the out of whack testosterone ratio. Apparently, that will be easy to check because he has a long history of giving samples, and detailed records are kept for a long time. We'll see. Michel |
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| lagunero |
Jul 28 2006, 02:22 PM
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#13
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Donkey Member Group: Benefactors Posts: 1,042 Joined: 8-January 04 From: orange county,ca Member No.: 1,531 |
New testies! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Lance won 7 with only one so that should be Landis' case.
T:E ratio accepted was until recently 6:1 and now 4:1. A "normal" person is 1:1, so unless the UCI stops this false notion that doping has zero tolerance in the peloton, riders will continue to push the " (UCI) limits". I do love Tyler Hamilton's "vanishing twin" excuse. |
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| Joe Bob |
Jul 28 2006, 02:24 PM
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#14
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
It's the FRENCH STOOPID.....
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| lapuwali |
Jul 28 2006, 02:25 PM
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#15
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Not another one! Group: Benefactors Posts: 4,526 Joined: 1-March 04 From: San Mateo, CA Member No.: 1,743 |
It isn't just Landis, it's the whole doping business recently with bicycle racing. Ullrich and Basso were kicked out on very flimsy, very indirect, evidence, at least so far as has been reported.
Landis' case is that he showed some indirect signs of steroid use, but not definitive evidence of their use. The data shown so far was that the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in Landis was 4:1. News reports claim that the "normal" ratio is 1:1. However, I've found research reports claiming the "normal" ratio is 2-3:1, and that the levels showing steroid use is 6-8:1. The standard the Olympics uses for steroid use is 6:1 or higher. Were this an Olympic event, Landis' wouldn't even have been questioned on this. In short, the ICU is being excessively paranoid about doping, and potentially ruining the careers of innocent people in their haste. |
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| turboman808 |
Jul 28 2006, 02:29 PM
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#16
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,718 Joined: 31-January 06 From: North Jersey Member No.: 5,505 Region Association: North East States |
Here is a link to a member of WADA giving a interview to ESPN. Kinda said what I was thinking. Doesn't make any sense that he would use any kind of steroid.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2006/news/story?id=2531677 "It doesn't make sense in terms of the pharmacology of the drug, and it really doesn't have the attributes that would be attractive to a cyclist -- particularly one running the risk of violating anti-doping regulations." |
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| RickS |
Jul 28 2006, 02:40 PM
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#17
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 17-April 06 From: 'False City', WA Member No.: 5,880 Region Association: None |
It justn't make sense that they would be that stupid. Here's another article on the science: http://boulderreport.bicycling.com/2006/07...de_specula.html
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| fiid |
Jul 28 2006, 05:29 PM
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#18
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Turbo Megasquirted Subaru Member Group: Members Posts: 2,827 Joined: 7-April 03 From: San Francisco, CA Member No.: 530 Region Association: Northern California |
I don't know if Landis did it or not. I do know that the whole business pisses me off. His performance on stage 17 was awesome - and now the whole thing is in question. I want todays kids to be able to win the TdF without having to have hydraulic rams implanted in their legs; which is where this shit will end up if it's not held in check.
I did enjoy this article though - very interesting: Basically - a journalist/cyclist tried getting juiced in a non-competetive event - to see how it is... http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/2...rug_test_1.html |
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| wbergtho |
Jul 28 2006, 07:06 PM
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#19
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,314 Joined: 28-April 03 From: Roberts, WI Member No.: 623 |
I really hope there is an explanaition for Landis' positive drug test. I enjoyed watching his epic battle. Hopefully he comes out clean and puts to rest all the speculation. Perhaps he has a naturally ocurring ratio that can be proven to be un-augmented by performance enhancing drugs. We'll have to wait and see. I wish him the best of luck and hope to hear he won clean. If it turns out any other way...I'll feel like I wasted my time celibrating his unbelievable Tour.
By the way, the article that Fiid suggested is quite interesting! Bill |
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| tat2dphreak |
Aug 3 2006, 01:33 PM
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#20
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stoya, stoya, stoya Group: Benefactors Posts: 8,797 Joined: 6-June 03 From: Wylie, TX Member No.: 792 Region Association: Southwest Region |
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