Landis wouldn't be that stupid to dope. I don't believe what I read. Your thougths?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14059185/

Is Ullrich that stupid?

Is Basso that stupid?

and the others too?



John

P.S. There seems to be a preponderance of 'stupid' bike jockeys lately....

It's a pretty sad situation. The entire thing is guilty until proven innocent, for everyone, including Ulrich and Basso.

If the ICU can't get their shit together and come up with better procedures, then I think Landis, Ullrich, Basso, and Armstrong should get together and start a new sanctioning body for bike racing, with rules that presume innocence until guilt can be proven. Get enough of the top riders to agree and switch, and I'll bet they can get L'Equipe and the backers of the Giro to switch to them, rather than stick with the ICU, which is clearly run by idiots.

What motive is there for the the ICU in regard to 'false positives' of it's most elite riders?

It can't be helping the sport?


John

according to the report ESPN gave this morning, i expect him to be cleared. Apparently his testosterone level wasn't high, it was his epitestosterone that was too low, which gave him some wacked out ratio that is beyond the ICU standard.

OJ didn't kill the bitch either...

there were 2 gunmen on the grassy knoll

and Andrea Yates is not responsible...



it's one thing when they wait 5 years and say "this guy was doping back then..." it's another when it's a few days after the event and the guy looks like kid rock

I don't buy the guilty until proven innocent complaint.
The guy gave a sample on July 17. A professional, independent, disinterested laboratory said that the sample contained evidence that Landis used illegal performance enhancing material.
The chances that the second sample (or rather the second half of the same sample) will yield different results are slim at best.
What remains are super-remote scenarios where there is another explanation. I don't know with 100% certainty whether the guy took illegal drugs or not, I am not his shadow. I do believe that it is highly likely that he did, and that we can't have a full jury trial every time something like this comes up.

Michel Richard

I'm no expert, and maybe some of the doctors here can help us out, but i can't see how taking testosterone after a bad day will help him have a better day the next day. (unless he grew new testicles!). testosterone will help you GROW big strong muscles, but it sure doesn't happen overnight! Now what i do not know is if there is some performance enhancer that you could take for a quick jolt that causes testosterone levels to be high.
Is it possible that "manning up" and just gutting out an unbeleiveable performance will cause your hormone levesl to be out of whack?
Enquiring minds wnat to know.

...and which material would that have been? Testing procedures and parameters set related to hormones in cycling have always been suspect.

Did he get a hot beef injection before the test?

Mark,

You are bang-on. One very knowledgeable reporter in this morning's paper here explained exactly that. His point was, however, that these guys are all on "cocktails" and he speculated that his system may have been unbalanced one way on the 16th ( he lost a ton of time) and the other way the 17th ( he gained a ton of time, but tested positive). And it is apparently pretty safe to assume that all the top riders are on one or another of these "special preparation programs".
The other info we got was that the thing about the hip treatment and other medication he takes have absolutely nothing to do with testosterone levels. It's like saying I got the flu because my neighbor fixed his leaking faucet i.e. no relationship.
The one explanation could be that Landis naturally has the out of whack testosterone ratio. Apparently, that will be easy to check because he has a long history of giving samples, and detailed records are kept for a long time.
We'll see.

Michel

New testies! Lance won 7 with only one so that should be Landis' case.

T:E ratio accepted was until recently 6:1 and now 4:1. A "normal" person is 1:1, so unless the UCI stops this false notion that doping has zero tolerance in the peloton, riders will continue to push the " (UCI) limits".

I do love Tyler Hamilton's "vanishing twin" excuse.

It's the FRENCH STOOPID.....

It isn't just Landis, it's the whole doping business recently with bicycle racing. Ullrich and Basso were kicked out on very flimsy, very indirect, evidence, at least so far as has been reported.

Landis' case is that he showed some indirect signs of steroid use, but not definitive evidence of their use. The data shown so far was that the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in Landis was 4:1. News reports claim that the "normal" ratio is 1:1. However, I've found research reports claiming the "normal" ratio is 2-3:1, and that the levels showing steroid use is 6-8:1. The standard the Olympics uses for steroid use is 6:1 or higher. Were this an Olympic event, Landis' wouldn't even have been questioned on this.

In short, the ICU is being excessively paranoid about doping, and potentially ruining the careers of innocent people in their haste.

Here is a link to a member of WADA giving a interview to ESPN. Kinda said what I was thinking. Doesn't make any sense that he would use any kind of steroid.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2006/news/story?id=2531677


"It doesn't make sense in terms of the pharmacology of the drug, and it really doesn't have the attributes that would be attractive to a cyclist -- particularly one running the risk of violating anti-doping regulations."

It justn't make sense that they would be that stupid. Here's another article on the science: http://boulderreport.bicycling.com/2006/07...de_specula.html

I don't know if Landis did it or not. I do know that the whole business pisses me off. His performance on stage 17 was awesome - and now the whole thing is in question. I want todays kids to be able to win the TdF without having to have hydraulic rams implanted in their legs; which is where this shit will end up if it's not held in check.


I did enjoy this article though - very interesting: Basically - a journalist/cyclist tried getting juiced in a non-competetive event - to see how it is...
http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/2...rug_test_1.html

I really hope there is an explanaition for Landis' positive drug test. I enjoyed watching his epic battle. Hopefully he comes out clean and puts to rest all the speculation. Perhaps he has a naturally ocurring ratio that can be proven to be un-augmented by performance enhancing drugs. We'll have to wait and see. I wish him the best of luck and hope to hear he won clean. If it turns out any other way...I'll feel like I wasted my time celibrating his unbelievable Tour.

By the way, the article that Fiid suggested is quite interesting!

Bill

dehydration?

Here are a few things to consider

1. They are gonna get caught and if they are gonna do some sort of doping they certainly aren't gonna use something that can easily be traced.

2. No one as of yet has come up with a excuse as to why steroids taken one time on one day are gonna help in any way.

3. Test the day before and the day after were within the desired specifications.

4. Up until this year 4 to 1 was within UCI the range accepted by WADA and the UCI

5. The test is 24 years old and has not changed.

6. Members of WADA themselves have doubts to the validity of the test. Even they think something went wrong in the testing and even another positive doesn't prove anything.

7. None of this information was made official and has all been "leaked" to the press. Bit shady and slimy if you ask me.

8. No banned substance has been found in the testing. He was found to have a high testosterone level thats it.




So in all honesty I think he is clean. I think this whole "guilty until proven inocent" way of doing things in Europe is BS. All the riders who were kicked out of the Tour before the start are slowly being taken off the list of possible witnesses. Still doesn't give Basso, Ulrich or Vino there tours back.

Just another fucking witch hunt to sell papers.

Guilty or Not, I have lost even more respect for Lemond

Bicycle racing is big business, especially in Europe. Any athletic equipment sales

can be affected by sports heros. If you sold bicycles in Europe would you want

another American to win the biggest bicycle race of the year, AGAIN. Just food

for thought.

first off Armstrong is clean! He was the most tested athlete in the world, BAR NONE. He passed every test ever given, and has won all lawsuits. Lemond should keep his mouth shut, he is irrelevent, he is not involved and his reign on the TDF was 20 years ago.

Testosterone is what is in question, what can it do for a rider? Recovery! It makes the muscles heal faster. For a cyclist you can come back to a stage on fresh legs.

In Lanis' case his back was against the wall and he had nothing to lose, so he went for it. It is quite possible for a rider of his caliber to have a bad day and come back like he did.

Winning the TDF is huge, the fame, recognition, money and that alone would spur someone to do something illegal. Landis would have to be a complete idiot to think that he would not be tested after winning a stage. He should know after riding two years with Lance, the first thing that will happen when he get's off the bike is a needle in the arm.

Personally, I hope he didn't, I want to belive the guy is clean. Unfortunatly Team phonak has a bad history with doping( Tyler H).

We will find out soon enough.

I have read that the test is actually a urine test.

John

P.S. They are difficult to study for....

I agree with Toon that Lemond is an asshole! He definitely should keep his big mouth shut. What's wrong with holding all commentary until all the fuckin facts are in? If it turns out that Landis cheated...I would give Lemond the green light to comment on it...BUT ONLY AFTER THE FACTS ARE ALL IN! By the way, he looks like he couldn't ride his bike to the mail box and back now.

what really pisses me off about LeMond is he was making allegations about armstrong when he was winning. I think he was jealous.

If Landis is found guilty I still don't think it gives him the green light to say anything, he should stay out.
He of all people should know what this is like, he probably had the same crap happen to him.

The race is French. The lab is French. Landis and are accused of drug use/doping. They're Americans. Others in question aren't Americans, but they're not French, either, IIRC. The lab's practices and results have been publicly questioned in the past. Of course, all the other labs in the world aren't as good as the French labs. Just ask the French.

There are certainly questions about whether the lab is truly a disinterested party....

The Cap'n

Let's go back to calling them "Freedom Fries".

Todays sports is a joke. There are people cheating on all sides of this thing. Performance enhancing drugs have been around in sports since the 50's. I figured this out in the early 80's when my friends were juicing in high school just to play varsity football. The public is getting caught up because the sports media (who has known for awhile) has to report stories that sell. Chemist's have been making and selling drugs underground for big bucks. They stay ahead of testing because it pays so good. Atheletes choose to do it to be great and make big bucks. Owners, coach's, Manager's ignore it because their teams win or are contending. when they win they make big bucks. Sponser's play stupid and when their guy or team win with their stuff they make big bucks.

FORGET ALL THE RECORDS THAT WERE ESTABLISHED IN THE EARLY DAYS OF SPORTS.

Here is the bottom line. The stuff works. people have set records with them for a long time. Dont support it if you will be pissed to find out your guy got caught. Its all about the money.... Oh, and when their balls fall off or she dies @ 32 because her heart exploeded it is sad, but they all know what their doing. It all starts with parenting. Teach your kids well..... Vince

Le Mond has always been a bit of a creep. He was very aloof as a Junior when I raced with him. He was always looking out for himself as a rider. He wasnt much of a team player ever. Lemond was an incredible athlete no denying that. In fact he was almost super human in some races. I think he has always been jealous of Lance. Lance is a much better tour rider than Lemond could ever have been. Lance commanded respect and support from his team that Greg couldnt achieve. So its always been easy for Greg to shoot arrows rather than take high road.

Back to Landis. One has to ask why the intial results were released to the media against rules established for testing and reporting. Its not until b sample has been conclusively tested that they can release this kind of information. It does sound like they found some synthetic hormones in the first test however. Not looking good for Landis.

The synthetic remarks are yet more leaks from the same suspect French lab. They're also leaking that the results were 11:1, yet it was 4:1 earlier.

The samples need to be tested by someone else.

I think the person who framed OJ and jean benet's family must have done it...

OJ was found innocent wasn't he?

Well...it's not looking good for Floyd. I just read an online news story that his B test came back positive. Unless he has a real good (no bullshit) explaination for this...he'll be stripped of his victory...and they may as well tar & feather him while there at it. This really sucks because I wanted to believe he was a force to be reckoned with (like Lance). His performance on stage 17 was exhilarating to see...but now it is looking like a real shitfest.

He's now been dismissed from the Phonak team. They want nothing more to do with him.

Now it is getting really ugly.


http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/08/05/D8JAAGHG1.html

The French Lab should I'll say it again: Landis didn't dope.

Landis looks like he should be working for Santa at the North Pole toy shop!

Midtowner,

I'm a Floyd Landis fan...don't get me wrong...but, there are reports that Landis not only had an 11:1 ratio...but that traces of synthetic testosterone were found. This stuff is either injected or consumed in some way. They are not naturally produced by the human body. If none of the above is true...then your only alternative would be that his sample was maliciously tainted. What exactly do you think the case is here? Sounds like you believe the French lab set him up. For Landis' sake, I hope you are right. There is a carbon isotope test that can very accurately test his sample...but if someone has already tainted it...the test will show it. Too bad clean athletes don't protect themselves with their own personal testing taken at an unbiased independant third party facility...so they can legitimately back up their claims to be drug free. I remember I was singled out with 17 other employees at work and drug tested. We were all suspended until the results came back from the lab. The results would mean instant termination for users. I was pissed (BIG TIME!) they even drug tested me in the first place...because everyone at work knows I work out like a feen and run competitively. It was a common fact that I never touched anything...OK I lied...I drink Jack & Coke....but the company was out on a witchhunt. I submitted to their gay test and went immediately to another certified facility to have myself drug tested (at my expense). This way Northworst Airlines would have some fucking explaining to do if their samples showed up positive. I'd just stroll in with test results from my independant drug testing facility (taken within 30 minutes of their tests) and demand to know why there's a discrepancy? As it turned out they did a fair analysis of my urine sample. Maybe athletes like Landis should pursue a similar path to protect themselves.

Bill

Wow. I see you can relate on a personal level. Perhaps you are on to something Bill!

They can test for that?

You have them dead to rights. They are all cheating, just some are better at covering up, and the fact that testing already makes allowances for how much you cheat just tells you that the big money team will always have the advantage. Why don't they do independant testing?

Look at the NHL, 05/06 was the first year for testing. It was announced in the summer and then no testing was done until the following January. Amazingly enough there were no positive tests.

What matters most is the appearance of a clean sport for public consumption. There is a level of drug taking that is accepted and a level of Franch conspiracy that follows so that once in a while a Yankee scapegoat can clear the slate.

johannes?

johannes?




John

Now thats choice, killer!

I take the Cozmo Cramer aproach by saying, "they are all FREAKS!!!!!!!" Thats why they are where they are, making a living with their asses!! I say, juice them all up and the one who crosses the finish line without blowing up or without organ failure wins!! It is not sports, its turned into nationalistic entertainment! Let them go, it'll be fun to watch, specially the one who, well, don't make it!!LOL The world dosen't have enough freaks in it for me to be entertained enough.

Its not me, its the beer talkin!!

8. No banned substance has been found in the testing. He was found to have a high testosterone level thats it.




Just for this #8 problem, I would be banned from any form of competition!

Ya, my blue balls are on fire 24/7!!!!