Battery - Optima or conventional?, Mine's kaput -what's the feeling from CW's Options

[smg914]

I though this was pretty well known on this site but I'll repeat.......

if you decide on the Red top, order the 34R. The 34R has the terminals in the correct position for the 914. NSN: 6140 01 475 9357

I'm also told that a lot of people use the group 78 adapter to secure the battery to the tray.

By the way I've always used a regular battery in all my 914's except my race cars but I will probably go with the red top for the M471 car.

[orthobiz]

My new car pics from Brad Mayeur are an advertisement for the Optima battery, as far as I'm concerned!

Paul

[TJB/914]

I just learned something about Optima batteries. I purchased my Optima about 3-years ago (Red-Top 34-R) and it's dead as in real dead. I put it on my battery charger using a 10 amp charge & it will not take a charge. I took it to the battery dealer who sells Optima and he is doing a 60-amp deep charge to shock it back to life. He called me on the phone & said it will probably take a charge now & will keep it on the 60-amp deep charge for about 4-plus hrs. to bring it back to life. He said I can pick it up tomorrow & suggested I buy a trickle charger to maintain it due to long periods of sitting. He is charging me $5 bucks for the charge & better than the $130.90 cost of a new one.

T

[Pat Garvey]

I just learned something about Optima batteries. I purchased my Optima about 3-years ago (Red-Top 34-R) and it's dead as in real dead. I put it on my battery charger using a 10 amp charge & it will not take a charge. I took it to the battery dealer who sells Optima and he is doing a 60-amp deep charge to shock it back to life. He called me on the phone & said it will probably take a charge now & will keep it on the 60-amp deep charge for about 4-plus hrs. to bring it back to life. He said I can pick it up tomorrow & suggested I buy a trickle charger to maintain it due to long periods of sitting. He is charging me $5 bucks for the charge & better than the $130.90 cost of a new one.

T

Hmmm! Beginning to think tha conventional is the way for me. Always get 5-7 years out of one. No tray or hell hole problems ever, & the car was autocrossed t least 100 times! What am I doing right?
Pat

[Johny Blackstain]

I just learned something about Optima batteries. I purchased my Optima about 3-years ago (Red-Top 34-R) and it's dead as in real dead. I put it on my battery charger using a 10 amp charge & it will not take a charge. I took it to the battery dealer who sells Optima and he is doing a 60-amp deep charge to shock it back to life. He called me on the phone & said it will probably take a charge now & will keep it on the 60-amp deep charge for about 4-plus hrs. to bring it back to life. He said I can pick it up tomorrow & suggested I buy a trickle charger to maintain it due to long periods of sitting. He is charging me $5 bucks for the charge & better than the $130.90 cost of a new one.

T

Hmmm! Beginning to think tha conventional is the way for me. Always get 5-7 years out of one. No tray or hell hole problems ever, & the car was autocrossed t least 100 times! What am I doing right?
Pat

I ran into the same problem w/ the LE & my truck. I think it's the design of the cell... it's meant for daily driving. I plopped battery tenders onto both & have had no problems since. I found it astonishing that the load of my VDO clock would drain it completely in one month (she has 47.5k miles for a reason). It does & w/out the battery tender I'd be buying a new battery every month. Bought 3 battery tenders on eBay for $12.95 each.


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[Pat Garvey]

Well, I've decided to stay with conventional (wish I could find a DETA). Most all the conventional batteries are made in 2 or 3 plants in this country & "badged" appropriately. I'll simply remove any marking, since they're peel off & go with generic.

Over 35 years I've had next to no battery acid spills, yet the car was autocrossed at least 50 times.

I'm going with what I know, probably from Manny, Moe & Jack (FLAPS here). As soon as the car comes down to floor.
Pat

[Bleyseng]

Wet cell battery emit acid vapour (they have vents) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif) that when washed by rain or car washing leach and attack the painted metal..

Gel batteries don't do that...pretty simple.

[Pat Garvey]

Wet cell battery emit acid vapour (they have vents) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif) that when washed by rain or car washing leach and attack the painted metal..

Gel batteries don't do that...pretty simple.

Hey Geoff,

Help me understand something. And, I'm NOT trying to be a wiseass here, just have enough knowledge of chemistry to be dangerous (heck, I still use asbestos brake pads)

A conventional (wet cell) battery on todays market is generally of the "sealed" variey. My understanding is that the O2, lead oxide & H2SO4 vapors are "supposed" to be recycled within the case.

Is a gel battery doing anything differently? The same chemicals are involved, so what becomes of the residuals?

Strikes me like the difference between the early battery covers & the "campaign" (Audi, chopped up) cover. The earlt one kept the cable tops clean, but allowed the bad stuff to be released. The campaign cover simply allowed it to condense around the lips of the cover & drain onto the battery tray, which is why I never kept it.

Seems to me, if you don't overfill a wet cell, keep it clamped down, and minimally autocross/race - you shouldn't have too many problems. If so, why is my hellhole good as new, as well as my battery tray (not QUITE good as new, but close).

Someone please "sell" me on gel batteries, because the short life doesn't seem worth it to me.
Pat

[Johny Blackstain]

Pat- the only real rust that ever occurred onto my LE was from that POS original DETA. My tray is no longer original because of it. Porsche now specifically provides those yellow pads to plop under the battery to neutralize the acid that flows out of wet cells. I think it's time to face the fact that you got very lucky w/ your teener. I suspect you must have cleaned her, everywhere & very regularly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) . I know exactly what you want... it does not exist & I too wish it did. We want Optima to build a battery for the Teener; a gel cel in a clear, milky white plastic box that says DETA in big red letters on one side (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ! Be nice if it had a cord hanging down from it so you could just reach up with an extension cord, plug her in & be done.


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[Matt Meyer]

At your request. On my soapbox:

IMHO AGM (Optima is one brand) batteries are vastly superior to "maintenance free" batteries. Soon everyone will be using AGM batteries.

"Maintenance free" batteries will vent anhydrous sulfuric acid into your 914 engine bay when ever they are charging. Add water and and you have sulfuric acid in your engine bay. If you overcharge one you may have sulfuric acid spewing all over.

AGM batteries do not normally vent sulfuric acid, even when charging. Overcharge one and you may vent sulfuric acid, you may even have sulfuric acid spewing all over.

So, buy a AGM and do not overcharge your batteries.

AGM batteries, in general, like to be stored at full charge, and have superior perfromance to comparable conventional batteries, including "maintenance free". Superior perfromance includes more cranking amps and longer life if kept near full charge.

Optima also has the YELLOW TOP, which is an AGM battery that has similar performance to a conventional battery and withstands repeated discharging better than a Red Top. Life appears to be similar to a conventional battery if abused in such a manner.

If discharges will be common you need a deep cycle battery. The Optima AGM battery in this category is a Blue Top.

So I recommend getting a Red Top and keeping it charged by driving the car, a battery maintainer, or just throwing a good charger on it every couple of months. Or getting a YELLOW TOP.


Excerpt from Lead acid hazard assessment webpage

We often hear -"Oh we don?t need to worry about those batteries - they are maintenance free and leak-proof too!" The person in question here may be referring to a VRLA or Valve-Regulated Lead Acid battery. They could also be referring to a "gell-cell" or gelled electrolyte battery; possibly an Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) battery or absorbed electrolyte battery. These common and erroneous, assumptions about maintenance requirements and leakage could lead to a disaster.

All of these battery types feature a sealed case; however, the physics of how each battery functions is significantly different. Valve-Regulated batteries are a type of sealed battery that, as the name implies, regulate the expulsion of excess hydrogen gas through a one-way valve or vent. VRLA batteries are often called captured electrolyte or capture mat batteries, they are sometimes called recombination type batteries. These names are indicative of the internal physics of the battery while the terms "vented" and "valve regulated" refer specifically to the mechanical device allowing the battery to expel excess gas.

VRLA batteries can contain significant amounts of sulfuric acid and they do vent explosive hydrogen gas. Worse still, they are very sensitive to temperature and charge rate. If overcharged, VRLA batteries can go into internal thermal runaway and explode. Additionally, some case swelling is considered "normal" though excessive case swelling may indicate trouble. All this information can be confusing - suspect battery plants should be surveyed by a professional battery technician.

Gell-cell batteries are a sealed case type of battery which recombine the hydrogen formed in the recharging process with free oxygen to form water which, in turn, keeps the cell "wet" or hydrated. The term "maintenance free" was coined by battery manufacturers in order to market recombination type batteries. Don?t be fooled!

Off soapbox.

[Pat Garvey]

At your request. On my soapbox:

IMHO AGM (Optima is one brand) batteries are vastly superior to "maintenance free" batteries. Soon everyone will be using AGM batteries.

"Maintenance free" batteries will vent anhydrous sulfuric acid into your 914 engine bay when ever they are charging. Add water and and you have sulfuric acid in your engine bay. If you overcharge one you may have sulfuric acid spewing all over.

AGM batteries do not normally vent sulfuric acid, even when charging. Overcharge one and you may vent sulfuric acid, you may even have sulfuric acid spewing all over.

So, buy a AGM and do not overcharge your batteries.

AGM batteries, in general, like to be stored at full charge, and have superior perfromance to comparable conventional batteries, including "maintenance free". Superior perfromance includes more cranking amps and longer life if kept near full charge.

Optima also has the YELLOW TOP, which is an AGM battery that has similar performance to a conventional battery and withstands repeated discharging better than a Red Top. Life appears to be similar to a conventional battery if abused in such a manner.

If discharges will be common you need a deep cycle battery. The Optima AGM battery in this category is a Blue Top.

So I recommend getting a Red Top and keeping it charged by driving the car, a battery maintainer, or just throwing a good charger on it every couple of months. Or getting a YELLOW TOP.


Excerpt from Lead acid hazard assessment webpage

We often hear -"Oh we don?t need to worry about those batteries - they are maintenance free and leak-proof too!" The person in question here may be referring to a VRLA or Valve-Regulated Lead Acid battery. They could also be referring to a "gell-cell" or gelled electrolyte battery; possibly an Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) battery or absorbed electrolyte battery. These common and erroneous, assumptions about maintenance requirements and leakage could lead to a disaster.

All of these battery types feature a sealed case; however, the physics of how each battery functions is significantly different. Valve-Regulated batteries are a type of sealed battery that, as the name implies, regulate the expulsion of excess hydrogen gas through a one-way valve or vent. VRLA batteries are often called captured electrolyte or capture mat batteries, they are sometimes called recombination type batteries. These names are indicative of the internal physics of the battery while the terms "vented" and "valve regulated" refer specifically to the mechanical device allowing the battery to expel excess gas.

VRLA batteries can contain significant amounts of sulfuric acid and they do vent explosive hydrogen gas. Worse still, they are very sensitive to temperature and charge rate. If overcharged, VRLA batteries can go into internal thermal runaway and explode. Additionally, some case swelling is considered "normal" though excessive case swelling may indicate trouble. All this information can be confusing - suspect battery plants should be surveyed by a professional battery technician.

Gell-cell batteries are a sealed case type of battery which recombine the hydrogen formed in the recharging process with free oxygen to form water which, in turn, keeps the cell "wet" or hydrated. The term "maintenance free" was coined by battery manufacturers in order to market recombination type batteries. Don?t be fooled!

Off soapbox.

Matt,

Appreciate the soapbox - really!

Just a little background here.

I've owned my 914 for 35 years. First 2 years it was a daily driver - racked up 48K miles! Now, 33 years later, the car is a hardcore garge queen, waiting for significant events to show at. During those 33 "off - road" years, it has been autocrossed at least 50 times, with a wet cell battery in the tray. Yep, I've had some minor (any I mean VERY minor) "events", causing a couple of acid vapor-related fadings in the paint. Wiped 'em down with backing soda & used rubbing compound to bring back the color (by the way, these happened 20+ years ago).

I don't autocross anymore because I'm 100% stock & can no longer comepete with 2 liter cars. So, "sloshing" & overcharging are not really concerns. The primary concern is the look of originality, and the Optima types are not going to provide that. Plus, they need continual charging - not relevant for me. Not saying they aren't the right thing for others.

Johnny Blackstain's comments are right on for us CW's. Make a gel batt that looks like a wet batt & we'll beat a path to it - all 10 of us. That's why we'll never see such a thing. In the mean time, I'll stick with wet cell tech. They typically last me 5-6 years & I can peel the labels of & make them appear generic.
Pat

[Matt Meyer]

You asked someone to "sell" you on AGM/gel batteries and I tried. I figured you are a lost cause (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif). I mean just between you and me, performance isn't the real issue is it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

IMHO you haven't had much trouble using conventional batteries because .... well you are a CW. I suspect you have strong attention to detail and have the knowledge and dicipline to perform routine maintenance. You probably even keep your rain tray on.

BTW- If you don't go with an AGM/gel you need your rain tray. Anhydrous acid (acid without water) will be all over the top of your battery. Add rain and acid will be running down the suspension console.

I understand the choices you CW guys make and for the 10 of you who are 9 to 10/10 CW and have the dicipline to maintain it properly, I think you make the right choice. But for the guys who think they are going to be CW.... well acid will be attacking the infamous hell hole. Remember you need to neutralize the acid around the battery regularly even if there is no sign of damage.

I have seen AGM batteries in a square cover at American Muscle concourse events. I don't think they look right either.

Also, My red top holds a charge for a long time if I disconnect it. My car has a fault so it will discharge a battery in about a day if connected. Proof, I lack the dicipline to run a conventional. I have completely drained two Optima red tops dead twice, severly depleted one of those several other times. Both are working well right now and holding charge.

I don't think red tops require any more diligance than a conventional battery. Just once a red top sulfates, I think it is much more difficult to bring it back. And in reality at that point your battery is on borrowed time anyway.

[Johny Blackstain]

You asked someone to "sell" you on AGM/gel batteries and I tried. I figured you are a lost cause (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif). I mean just between you and me, performance isn't the real issue is it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

IMHO you haven't had much trouble using conventional batteries because .... well you are a CW. I suspect you have strong attention to detail and have the knowledge and dicipline to perform routine maintenance. You probably even keep your rain tray on.

BTW- If you don't go with an AGM/gel you need your rain tray. Anhydrous acid (acid without water) will be all over the top of your battery. Add rain and acid will be running down the suspension console.

I understand the choices you CW guys make and for the 10 of you who are 9 to 10/10 CW and have the dicipline to maintain it properly, I think you make the right choice. But for the guys who think they are going to be CW.... well acid will be attacking the infamous hell hole. Remember you need to neutralize the acid around the battery regularly even if there is no sign of damage.

I have seen AGM batteries in a square cover at American Muscle concourse events. I don't think they look right either.

Also, My red top holds a charge for a long time if I disconnect it. My car has a fault so it will discharge a battery in about a day if connected. Proof, I lack the dicipline to run a conventional. I have completely drained two Optima red tops dead twice, severly depleted one of those several other times. Both are working well right now and holding charge.

I don't think red tops require any more diligance than a conventional battery. Just once a red top sulfates, I think it is much more difficult to bring it back. And in reality at that point your battery is on borrowed time anyway.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) & don't care about originality to the point of risking the car. I will never put a wet cell in that car again. Unfortunately, my six came w/ a brand new wet battery but it's been relocated to the front trunk & has a disconnect knob. So far so good up front. I've found that batteries in general do very well disconnected & kept from freezing. Best thing to do w/ a motorcycle battery for instance, is to take it out & put it inside for the winter while the bike stays in the cold garage. Wet or dry just take it out & put it inside... it will last much much longer. Also never store your battery on the ground; won't matter if it's warm, dry & disconnected... the ground will suck the charge right out. Put it on top of a block of wood if you have to use the ground floor.


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[914Mike]

[Also never store your battery on the ground; won't matter if it's warm, dry & disconnected... the ground will suck the charge right out. Put it on top of a block of wood if you have to use the ground floor.]

So how is that electrically different than bolting it to a sheet of grounded steel in your car?

That OLD wives tale is just that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) OLD! Although the wood could keep your floor from getting stained, or maybe keep the battery from freezing, but a clean batt on dry earth, cement, whatever will NOT discharge unless it has an internal short.

Have you ever seen one of the wet cells from a turn-of-last-century electric car? With a case made of wood and tar they leaked so bad that the acid would make conductive paths all over the outside of the case. so putting one of those on the ground WOULD discharge it in a hurry. Modern batteries? No Way!

[Johny Blackstain]

Old wives tale or not my 34R does not fit quite right... there are stubs on the ends that made it a hair too long to fit onto the tray properly. Anyone else have at battery sitting @ an angle? I Dremeled the stubs off the backside & now the battery fits like a dream.


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[Pat Garvey]

I started this topic almost a year ago. Aparently, without thinking.

The purpose of this forum is to further originality. With that in mind, original quality wet-cell batteries are still available. Oiginal! Must have had abrain fart when I brought it up.

Try as we may, and modify as we may to make an Optima look correct in a 914 - it ain't gonna happen.

Good points - bad points? Don't matter - it will never be original.

So, for those reasons, and since I'm the Moderator of this forum - this topic is closed! Beat me for staring it, but I was....."disposed".

Don't get me wrong, this is a good topic - just not for this Forum. Take it to the Garage.

Sorry
Pat