KitCarlson looking for Beta Tester, KitCarlson EMS nears Beta Release Options

[fiid]

I agree. You can run RS232 over an RJ45 connector (Actually - cisco do this) - if you want the easier crimping and cable connection.

Running ethernet around a car is likely to be a little problematic since it's not buffered well and is susceptable to noise. A true Rs232 spec port can be wired to the mains without breaking anything. Which is why most ports are RS232 Compatable (not compliant :-) ).

Fiid.

[SirAndy]

I agree. You can run RS232 over an RJ45 connector (Actually - cisco do this) - if you want the easier crimping and cable connection.

Running ethernet around a car is likely to be a little problematic since it's not buffered well and is susceptable to noise. A true Rs232 spec port can be wired to the mains without breaking anything. Which is why most ports are RS232 Compatable (not compliant :-) ).

what he said! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

unless you use the double-shielded cat5 it won't hold up around a running motor. too much interference (sp?). and most people don't even know cat5 comes in double-shielded.

Andy

[Brad Roberts]

I'm not Mr. Ethernet. I was thinking more along the lines of what Cisco does with ALL of its product line. I have 4-6 Cisco cables I can use. You would be hard pressed to make me "think" that there would be a problem sitting in the passenger compartment tuning a 914 with a Cisco style cable. Those cables worked very well in an enviroment much worse than any 914 could offer up. 99% of the time I configured a router I was sitting/standing next to 100's of computer/fans/fire suppression/monitors... blah blah.

I just want to use something other than a RS232 cable.

Otmar the electric 914 guy figured it out. He used his Palm pilot with a RJ45 ethernet cable.


B

[SirAndy]

99% of the time I configured a router I was sitting/standing next to 100's of computer/fans/fire suppression/monitors...

yeah, but those fans didn't have points and rotors and spark plugs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

very strong magnetic fields building up and collapsing = alotta induction
Andy

[Brad Roberts]

Thats ok. None of the cars I plan to tune will have points.

If the brain is mounted in the passenger compartment and I'm tuning from the passenger seat... I dont see a problem.


B

[KitCarlson]

Sorry for the delay, been out test driving. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The serial communications is presently running at 57.6K baud. Without problems. Three pins are used on one of the connectors. The cable is terminated with a BD9 female that can plug directly to a PC. The addition of a connector on the EMS is a good idea. When at the engine, the cable to the passenger compartment could be detached and a local one plugged in. The connector also makes the install easier. The DB9 requires a large hole.

I have been using a cable draped over the car and stuffed a window. Fixed that yesterday too.

What about a RJ11, a phone cable type, smaller than a RJ45?

KitCarlson

[Mark Henry]

The biggest complaint I have about the SDS system is cutting a big f-ing hole (1 1/2") for the connectors. I don't like to do it on a (my) nice teen.

[JeffBowlsby]

Thats anpther reason I would want to install the ECU as a sleeper into the OEM ECU box....to avoid any holes in the chassis. It can be made waterproof enough.

[Mark Henry]

Thats anpther reason I would want to install the ECU as a sleeper into the OEM ECU box....to avoid any holes in the chassis.  It can be made waterproof enough.

Jeff,

That's how I did my SDS install, I was going to surprise ya.

But with the SDS system it's a total PITA

Issue #1
You still have to run a DB9 cable to the controller, a three wire for the mixture knob and a single wire for the mixture meter. The cables for the controls are only 6' so they're a bit short. I took a 2nd DB9 and cut it and ran the wires through a 9/16 hole and grommet, then spliced them back together. It seems to work OK but this may (or may not) be part of my low idle miss problem.

Issue #2
You will have to take the box apart every time you R&R the engine to disconnect the crank sensor (another DB9), the 3 wire and the controller DB9. I want to be able disconnect the harness within minutes. With it in the cab I would only have to disconnect 1 DB9, the rest will disconnect right at the engine, about a half dozen quick disconnects.

Some of these issues may not be a problem for most people, but as an engine builder I may be R&Ring my engine quite often for the first while. Also if you don't go with the crankfire this is much less of an issue. I guess you can cut/splice/different connector the unit but I don't want to hack up the harness much.

I admit that I was in too much of a rush to try and get my system up and running, that's why I decided to step back and take the winter to DWD my set up. Not to mention that I still have 6 engines to build before X-mas and 10 more (including two 2270 T4’s) already booked for next spring.


Kit, I'm not trying to hijack your thread and I’m not saying that one PEFI system will be better than another. I'm just expressing some of the problems that pisses end users off. The end user of your product won't give a rat’s ass about the tech. They will care about the ease of installation, a good-looking install and the ease of programming period. “Keep it simple stupid” or should I say “keep it simple for us stupid’s.
If it’s not simple (and cost effective) people will just buy carb’s or keep it stock.

You may want to sub-contract your 914 specific wiring harnesses to Jeff (Bowlsby) as he does nice work. I may still send my harness to him to tidy up and put boots on it once I'm happy with it.

[fiid]

Thats ok. None of the cars I plan to tune will have points.

If the brain is mounted in the passenger compartment and I'm tuning from the passenger seat... I dont see a problem.


B

The difference is the wire protocol, not the cable. There is no problem with your plan - I'm just nitpicking.. :-)

AFAIK, Ethernet is TTL - so 0v is off and 5v is on. It's very fast, and the wire goes pretty much directly into the logic circuit that processes it. This is why plugging the phone cord into an ethernet card tends to fry it.

RS232 is +12 on and -12 off. It's much harder to confuse it with little voltage spikes. It's also much slower.

RS232 goes through a shitload of buffering before it gets to any of the logic. You should be able to wire up your RS232 port to a 110volt wall outlet and it still work afterwards (do not try this at home - most RS232 ports are not TRUE RS232 - they are just compatable... but still much better buffered.

Anything capable of delivering a spark is capable of introducing enough noise in ethernet to disrupt transmition, (unless you are using super-shielded cable) - but I would still shy away from it. It might introduce enough noise to fry things. If you want high speed networking as opposed to a point to point link (RS232) you can use the CAN bus which is designed for this type of environment.

Early radio transmiters used exactly this method of signal generation actually - thay had a little wheel which introduced constant sparks - it makes a clean enough sine wave to transmit morse code.

Your plan of using RS232 over CAT5 cable is perfectly solid. There are plenty of adaptor kits available (for cisco gear) that will see you right.

[fiid]

Sorry for the delay, been out test driving. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The serial communications is presently running at 57.6K baud. Without problems. Three pins are used on one of the connectors. The cable is terminated with a BD9 female that can plug directly to a PC. The addition of a connector on the EMS is a good idea. When at the engine, the cable to the passenger compartment could be detached and a local one plugged in. The connector also makes the install easier. The DB9 requires a large hole.

I have been using a cable draped over the car and stuffed a window. Fixed that yesterday too.

What about a RJ11, a phone cable type, smaller than a RJ45?

KitCarlson

Anything with 3 or more pins will work - it's just what is easier.

There's a bunch of stuff for runnign Serial over RJ45 - just might be easier than having to make a bunch of cables :-)

Fiid.

[redshift]

Totally agree, cat-5e.

God, I must have 10,000ft of that crap!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
a

M

[Dave Avery]

Bumpage...

Any news Kit/Brad? This is an exciting topic. I'll need to revisit induction and ignition soon, and if you've got a solution to both, I'm very interested.

[KitCarlson]

Just been real busy. I have been working on the software additions and testing. The metal parts are not in production. I hand make each one and learn as I go. I have been building jigs to help with the fabrication. Also doing some contract work to help with the bills. In about a week the unit should be checked out and ready to ship. I would like to visit Brad for the install, holidays may get in the way. Every day the system gets better.

KitCarlson (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[redshift]

I'm stoked on this one, I haven't been excited by the other solutions.

Hurry!


M

[Dave Avery]

Kit, can you pre-spill any details? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Perhaps estimated cost, and installation effort?

Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brad Roberts]

I have people asking me about the system right now (people having engines built).

I really think this thing will fly nicely with the 914 crowd (if we can keep it simple) and have a database of known running configs for different cams/heads/engine sizes.

B

[KitCarlson]

The install is simple. The fuel system is left intact. The distributor is replaced by a new optical sensor unit. The throttle switch is replaced by a throttle position sensor. The MPS hose from the manifold connects to to EMS. Existing head and manifold temperature sensors are used. A quad coil replaces the ignition coil, plug wires from coil connect directly to plugs. Harness connects for power, injectors, fuel pump ... My website shows parts removed and added.

Please visit http://home.mindspring.com/~dave.c/kitcarlson/

All sensors can be easily verified prior to starting with a Palm or PC connection.

Tuning is easy. Initial timing can be set by eye, engine dead, by placing the engine at the desired ignition point (eg. 8 deg BTDC), then rotating distributor till the interrupter just passes sensor A.
The other component is MAP (absolute manifold pressure), 8 points for the vacuum advance control. Bosch curves or rules of thumb (eg. 28deg at 3000) are used to define timing curves.

Base idle fuel (~2-4mS) can be tuned by ear with (+,-) keys. The engine volumetric efficiency follows the torque curve of the engine. The tourque curve found in the owners manual in an excellent starting point. The VE curve has 16 points over the rpm range. A multiplier adjustment is provided to grow or reduce the curve for easy rough-in settings.

All settings are done real time with the ability to save changes.

The unit should be affordable for a reasonable number of units. I need to get the small hardware components in production and a identify a contract manufacturer. Not sure at this time what the assembled cost will be.

It is hard to complete price wise with the DIY MegaSquirt, this unit will sell completely assembled, with parts for a turn-key installation. SDS or less, is my best guess. That rhymes!

KitCarlson (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KitCarlson]

Oops, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Tuning is easy. Initial timing can be set by eye, engine dead, by placing the engine at the desired ignition point (eg. 8 deg BTDC), then rotating distributor till the interrupter just passes sensor A.

The primary table Timing vs RPM, has 16 points. This is added to the base timing, typical curves ramp to a maximum value at (eg. 20 @ 3000 rpm, 8 + 20 = 28) then hold constant.

The other component is MAP (absolute manifold pressure), 8 points for the vacuum advance control. The MAP timing component is usually small, a few degrees. Low MAP relates to high vacuum.

Kit

[Dave Avery]

Thanks Kit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So if I am carbed at the moment, 2.5L 914 engine, 44IDF's, what would I need to purchase... a complete CIS kit from a late car?

Do you think this can be done for under 1K Total, or is this more like $1500-2K?

Just thought of something cool... My Kyocera smartphone has an Infrared link, which routes serial (as do a lot of palms)... Could be cool to do an IR eye somewhere so my phone can be within 5 feet and tune.... could put an eye inside the car and outside (like this:
http://www.mobtech.co.uk/ecbmob/item974.htm

This would work with palms as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)