How do we beat TomP at Parade 07 ? Options

[Brad Roberts]

I like Tom. Great guy. Got to spend time with him while I lived in NorCal.. but it doesnt mean I'm going to lay down for him at an AutoX..LOL

I have the chassis and the LSD gearbox. I dont even have to drive (I'll put a SCCA National Champ in the seat if need be)

What kind of HP/TQ will it take to beat him. I'm figuring the course is going to be VERY fast since it is being held here in SD.


Thoughts on this?

This will probably be my last "hurrah" with owning a 914 race car.


The car is GUTTED. No windshield.. very little to NO steel in it. Goodyear R430's on 7's+8's. Full cage. It will end up with alum floor pans with small tubes. Shifter/seat/steering wheel. 3 gallon tank.


B

[drgchapman]

Brad, Britain and I looked his car over fairly closely at Parade this year. Old bushings that are cracking, basic suspension. Really big front and rear tires(especially the rears), really big rear wing. Car is completely stripped. Fiberglass body panels all around. I forget which /6 he has, but it is "built".

Put on a really big wing, really big tires and lots of HP and torque.

Then drive real fast.

Good luck.

Gary

[Rough_Rider]

Can you get an idea on what the course will look like or what the surface will be.

Surface will dicate what tyres to run.
Course would influence gearing & torque / hp curve needed.

If course is unknown i'd vote for big torque over hp, to get you better scoot outta turns.

If you get over 200hp work on aero &downforce, but a regular wing ain't gonna cut it below 70mph. So either go for FSAE huge wing, or a straight-up spoiler.
Clean-up every seam, tape down joints / shut lines, weld doors shut, use aero tubing on leading edges.

Raise suspension pickup points to lower body without loosing damper travel.
Usual suspects on bearings & some nice tunable dampers wouldn't go amiss.

HTH.

[TravisNeff]

Doesn't Tom run a 3.5 engine? (I assumbe based off a 3.2)

[Eric_Shea]

For AX like that, I would think it would have to be big and torquie. Peaky doesn't work that well. I did well driving a 2.2T against the S's in the class.

[Brad Roberts]

I know the surface VERY well and yes I'm betting I can get my hands on the course design WELL before others.

I could move the suspension points up easily while the car is apart. I have done enough of them in the past.. this would be a no brainer for me.

I have enough ratio's sitting around that I could build a torquish engine and gear accordingly.

Wings.. damn.. I dont have access to anything bigger than GT3RSR. I'm not a newbie when it comes to splittlers and wings.. but low speed downforce IS something new to me.

I'll call me friend Dave Ferguson and see what he did to win Parade in his 9146. I know he used an underbody tray that SUCKED the car to the pavement.

I *think* Tom is actaully running a 3.8, but I wont swear to it.


B

[Randal]

I like Tom. Great guy. Got to spend time with him while I lived in NorCal.. but it doesnt mean I'm going to lay down for him at an AutoX..LOL

I have the chassis and the LSD gearbox. I dont even have to drive (I'll put a SCCA National Champ in the seat if need be)

What kind of HP/TQ will it take to beat him. I'm figuring the course is going to be VERY fast since it is being held here in SD.


Thoughts on this?

This will probably be my last "hurrah" with owning a 914 race car.


The car is GUTTED. No windshield.. very little to NO steel in it. Goodyear R430's on 7's+8's. Full cage. It will end up with alum floor pans with small tubes. Shifter/seat/steering wheel. 3 gallon tank.


B

Thoughts are great, but a car, or cars, based upon real math are better.

Briefly there are two approaches:

First you need a lightweight car (+/-1600lbs) that has all or most of the suspension tricks, including a full cage, so that the suspension works.

You need either a 3.6 (6) or a big well built 4. The 3.6 will need to be at least 300HP to the rear wheels, with tires to match. This configuration would probably be more like 1800lbs and change.

The 4 would need to be at least 200hp, with the same amount of torque, but can probably run cantilevered tires/slicks.

Great brakes, of course.

LSD is a must.

Raised suspension points are good.

And of course you need drivers. Maybe this is the most important element as Tom is a national quality autoX driver.

BPR has more than one car that fits the above description and our 2007 plans are to dial them in and compete locally and at Parade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)

[Brad Roberts]

OK. The chassis has 10's and 12's right now. I'll stick with those.

200hp T4 "check"

Even if I have to "borrow" an engine for the event.. LOL

I have the advantage of testing on the surface 8-10 times before Parade comes to town.

It will weigh 1600lbs NO problem (even if I have to fly Paul "Ury" in for some guidance)..LOL

I cant afford to run a "Hot" 3.6

I can have the chassis ready for powder coat in a few weeks...

B

[Brad Roberts]

Brakes:

It is 5 lug right now F+R with SC rotors. I could run a lightweight alum caliper on it.

I can see shocks being a big cost factor. I would want something with external canisters like Fordahl runs in the white 914. He mounts the canisters/adjusters under the dash so he can "adjust" them while in line.

I'll have to call the "Moton" guy and see if I work something out.



B

[Aaron Cox]

JRZ or what about the SRP fox rsr struts?

[Brad Roberts]

You need something with at least 2way adjustment. The SRP's are rebound only. I'm sure JRZ has "something" for rebound and bump.

Sucks. Bilstein is down the street from me. They are working on an external canister for Porsches.. but I dont think they are for the early struts.


B

[Aaron Cox]

hmmm....

what is tom running? just koni yellows?

look on ebay, i think SRP has a pair of JRZ's on there

[Aaron Cox]

hmmm....

what is tom running? just koni yellows?

look on ebay, i think SRP has a pair of JRZ's on there

no idea on adjustability....

also you wouldnt be able to use the rears (911)

but here is the JRZ shizzle

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911...sspagenameZWDVW

[jd74914]

hmmm....

what is tom running? just koni yellows?

look on ebay, i think SRP has a pair of JRZ's on there

no idea on adjustability....

also you wouldnt be able to use the rears (911)

but here is the JRZ shizzle

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911...sspagenameZWDVW

This sounds really dumb, but I remember TimT saying something about 911 rears on his car? I knwo they aren't supposed to work.

[J P Stein]

3.4 (5?)L twin plug, hi butterfly RSR MFI......show up with 200 hp & you'll be down 100 hp minimum. Looking the car over, there is nothing truely trick...WAG 1700-1900 lbs)...but it's damn fast and Tom has been driving it for years. He took to the high speed course at PIR like a duck to water. You'd better get an SCCA National champ (and a member of the PCA) that can do his magic within 3 runs cold...cause Tom can. One fella came close to him in a late 911 racin' vehical.......but this ain't horse shoes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I was thinkin that a cup car would blow everyone into the weeds on that PIR course (NO tight stuff)......I didn't see any Mods run...I was busy goin' sideways. & scratchin' my haid between runs.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[nebreitling]

i prefer the idea of of lightweight T4 contender... focus on unsprung weight and suspension (re)design. 200hp and a quick cable shifter. can you put the driver's seat in the middle of the car? frankly, i think an AX-only car could be pretty fragile -- i.e. if it doesn't break every once in a while, then it's too heavy.

In terms of aero, I believe that a lot could be learned from the Amod guys and from the F-SAE guys. The closer you can get to their paradigm, the quicker the car.

[Brad Roberts]

I seriously thought about putting 4 lug stuff back on the car to lighten it up.

I'm also thinking about SUPER wafe thin fiberglass where it doesnt need to be strong (think 908's/flying lawn chairs)

I can easily assemble my own ERP style front end..

Who asked about center seat?? I was involved with a center seat 914 back in 1994..LOL One of the 914club members in Mckinnie Texas owns it or owned it.

Light.Driver.Gearing.Torque.Low Drag Down Force.

Tarett will sponsor me/give me the sways..


B

[DanT]

Tom's car is very old school. Just check the '80s style body work. The motor started as a 3.6, don't know if it still is or has been massaged to 3.8.
If he ran the tires he ran at Marina a couple weeks before parade, they were at least 2 years old. Give Tom any car and he will be fast. I have seen him take one lap in other folks cars and beat the owners best time by a bunch....
Car has not been freshened in many years. I don't think it is all that light either.
Tom is not a subtle driver, HP and brute strength.

This is an interesting topic.

[jhadler]

Motor...I agree 200 hp is giving it up before the green flag even drops. 4 or 6 doesn't matter if you're giving up that much power off the bat.

Brakes... Don't need gonzo brakes, just make sure that you've got some good SC brakes in REALLY god shape with some good pads. If you want ot get tricky, make swiss cheese out of the rotors to drop some of that all important rotational mass. Here's a picture from a top flight SCCA EP car...


Suspension... Yeah, all the goodies. JRZ or Moton would be the way to go, but even custom double konis are better than nothin', and cheaper to boot.

Shed the weight, cage the chassis (to whatever limit the rules place on ya). At least 10" wheels with slicks, forget the cantilevers.

Hired Gun... Yeah, a left coaster SCCA top dog for sure. I'm thinking Greg Fordahl would be the best bet. Heck, I'd wager Greg and his FP car could give TomP a run for his money even with the weight dissadvantage. Apart from that, I'd look at maybe James Gunn-Wilkerson (he's local to you, La Jolla, you must have seen him around in the black GT3). He'd need some practice time in the car, and he'd probably want to run it Nationals if it were really good. For that matter, you've got Chris Cox in NorCal who's fast in anything he gets into, and he knows how to drive fast, powerful, slick shod cars at an autox. And you've got Jeff Reitmier in NorCal as well, always a good bet to win when he shows up.

-Josh2

[DanT]

I would put my money on Jeff Reitmeir since he has won multiple national SCCA titles in a 914, and can read a course very quickly.

JP. the car that almost beat Tom this year at parade is a Sacramento region member. His car is an early 911 chassis with all fiberglass 993 body work. A purpose built TT/race car. Car was previously owned and driven by Matt Lowrance of Sporthause (Reno) Car has a 3.8L motor. It is VERY strong. It wasn't a bad showing since the present owner (Glenn Brooksby) hasn't AXed much in several years. And I don't think he had ever AXed that particular car much if ever, before parade.