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> 30 psi of boost it produced 547hp/610nm at the backwheels, Is it a subie?
Crazyhippy
post Oct 16 2006, 01:46 PM
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think it's on pump gas?

Me neither

BJH
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JPB
post Oct 16 2006, 04:34 PM
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Turbo talk, thats crazy talk for them there dreamers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
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BMXerror
post Oct 16 2006, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE(DNHunt @ Oct 15 2006, 06:35 AM) *

QUOTE
(as we all know, you don't do criticism real well)


Paul

You might want to look at absolutes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Dave


Well, let's face it. None of us take criticism very well. We all think our opinion is the 'right' one. Sometime we (me included) just loose site of the fact that it's only an opinion. And YES, there IS such thing as an opinion in engineering. As much as engine building comes down to hard science and numbers, it's really a balance of a zillion different variables. Each variable has it's own up and down side. The opinion part comes in when each of us as individuals decide which ups and downs are most important for our particular application. That's why I think it's funny (irritating as hell) when people say I'm building MY car all wrong.... That was more like three cents.
Mark D.
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Mueller
post Oct 16 2006, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE(Crazyhippy @ Oct 16 2006, 12:46 PM) *

think it's on pump gas?

Me neither

BJH



Who cares, it's still neat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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Mueller
post Oct 16 2006, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE(Brett W @ Oct 14 2006, 06:37 PM) *

In the beginning before Jake had a dyno a lot of his info came the hard way. With that sometimes you can't see the true details of the whats and whys. So until you have the ahrd numbers it is hard to change your opinion.

Once you sit down and actually scientifically crunch numbers and test data you might actually change your opinions. I would bet that is what has happened to Jake.

I know I have had opinions in the past that have proven to be a little off base. Experience brings wisdom.

NOw as far as this Type four engine goes, why is the power so low. I have talked to the owner of a 2.0l engine that made 625hp at the same boost levels. It used the same setup, Pauter heads with a draw through 650cfm HOlley.

At the crank or the wheels? It could be that this guy is still tuning and the numbers are not absolute...or could even be something as silly as bad conversion factors???


Type four heads are way too weak to handle major boost levels. You will be doing valve adjust after every pull. The Pauter heads are the strongest offering, but they are not really street heads.

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Bleyseng
post Oct 16 2006, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE(BMXerror @ Oct 16 2006, 04:10 PM) *

QUOTE(DNHunt @ Oct 15 2006, 06:35 AM) *

QUOTE
(as we all know, you don't do criticism real well)


Paul

You might want to look at absolutes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Dave


Well, let's face it. None of us take criticism very well. We all think our opinion is the 'right' one. Sometime we (me included) just loose site of the fact that it's only an opinion. And YES, there IS such thing as an opinion in engineering. As much as engine building comes down to hard science and numbers, it's really a balance of a zillion different variables. Each variable has it's own up and down side. The opinion part comes in when each of us as individuals decide which ups and downs are most important for our particular application. That's why I think it's funny (irritating as hell) when people say I'm building MY car all wrong.... That was more like three cents.
Mark D.



You are building your car wrong!!!! Its my way or the highway buddy!

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DBCooper
post Oct 17 2006, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE(914forme @ Oct 15 2006, 06:43 PM) *

Not going to speak for Jake, but he could have been refering to the long standing joke on this list and other that "You can't turbo a 914" And he forgot the smiley. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


That actually started in the STF whenever someone posted about turboing a T4, to give Jake a little poke (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) about his statement (very strong opinion?) that "you can't turbo a T4". It's been a running joke ever since, there, here, elsewhere. You hear it frequently from the Europeans, who seem to have been turboing the heck out of them. Those long winters, I guess. And I imagine you'll hear it even more often once Jake starts selling them himself. Harmless humor.
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Brett W
post Oct 17 2006, 10:43 AM
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QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 16 2006, 03:45 PM) *


At the crank or the wheels? It could be that this guy is still tuning and the numbers are not absolute...or could even be something as silly as bad conversion factors???



It was flywheel HP. THis was done before the days of everyone having chassis dynos. This is true, it could be something silly. I can only go on the info provided.

Dave's engine used stock T4 heads for a long time. He did the 5-6 head studs, nothing would keep the heads from flexing during a run. He said he would have to adjust the valves after every run because the heads were moving around. When he switched to the Pauter heads he set teh valve adjust once a weekend and left it alone. Never had any other head problems.

Now this is a drag specific vehicle, not a street car so compromises where made for the application.
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JmuRiz
post Oct 17 2006, 03:22 PM
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Who cares who said what in the past blahblahblah. That's some big power no matter what, cool for someone to build these engines. And cool for Jake to try and make a big power turbo setup that isn't just for a drag race. I'm sure 2007 will be an even more wild year than 2006 was for Type 4 engine development, and that's a very cool thing.

First time I saw the 'you can't turbo a 914' comment was the European Car magazine guys responding to a reader mail...go fig.
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Jake Raby
post Oct 17 2006, 04:32 PM
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Through some intervention and some head mods I have pushed TIV engines to 20+ PSI boost this year already for as long as two full minutes on the dyno at WOT- no valves needed adjustment.

We have taken the Turbo development of these engines to an infinite level, thats why you haven't seen any posts or pics as of yet- it'll all come in due time with a ton of results that those in the right place, at the right time and a credit card number can gain access to :-)

Just wait till you see what Herbie Extreme II has under the deck...
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JPB
post Oct 17 2006, 04:44 PM
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He didn't say one can't make a T4 turbo, he just meant at HIS level of quality which includes longevity and reliability.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif) Anyone can get power out of anything. The question is for how long and for what purpose.
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Sammy
post Oct 17 2006, 05:51 PM
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I guess that 150 to 175 hp my 2 liter turbo made at 7 to 8 psi was fake (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
All hp is real unless you are doing it with a K&N filter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I know I know, what you meant by real was high hp numbers.

I never really cared about those "real" hp engines. There will always be someone out there with more power, more money, etc.

I like bolting a turbo onto a stock engine, dialing in 6 or 7 psi boost, doing a little tuning and increase the power output reliably by at least 50% for very little money. For me that's fun.
I did it with my 914, a 67 bug, and my 911 SC. Getting to be a habit.
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Sammy
post Oct 17 2006, 05:56 PM
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I don't know when the phrase "you can't turbo a 914" was first said, but the first time I read it was about 7 years ago on some long gone 914 board, written by our own Damp Dave and i haven't missed a chance to remind him of that since, but in a respectful way.
What was the name of that 914 board, anyone remember? I know I found it before pelican, and I know it went away not long after that. I wish I had more details but I've got CRS.
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Jake Raby
post Oct 17 2006, 05:58 PM
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150 HP from a stock 80K mile 2.0 was easy... All I found that needed to be changed was the springs and retainers..

After 8PSI things change, 10 PSI needs water injection, but is still safe for short periods of time... After 10 PSI the top ring lands really hate life.
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Sammy
post Oct 17 2006, 06:03 PM
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Jake, I couldn't agree more. I didn't have much scientific data to back me up but that's the same conclusion I came up with. that's why I stopped at 7 psi. I wouldn't say it was easy for me, it took quite a bit on homework on my part before i really felt like understood what I was doing.

I wanted reliability as well as power and I really liked the fact that I had a decent 914 that was fast and only had about $3000 total invested in it.

Making reliable power cheaply was prolly the biggest challenge and also the most rewarding thing for me. It was almost a contest, how much power can I get for $250 worth of junk yard bolt-on and welded-up parts?
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Jake Raby
post Oct 17 2006, 06:08 PM
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It has been fun for me and will be more fun with the new dyno..

I haven't gotten as far with it as I wanted in 2006, it'll take the better part of 07 for me to finish my scattering experiences..

BTW- The new dyno cell has a bank teller window and scatter proof walls to keep us safe! Its a killer set up!
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JmuRiz
post Oct 18 2006, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE(Sammy @ Oct 17 2006, 03:56 PM) *

What was the name of that 914 board, anyone remember? I know I found it before pelican, and I know it went away not long after that. I wish I had more details but I've got CRS.

The one I was on before Pelican and here was the Renegade 914 site, long gone though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) the site address was:
http://www.dgi.net/914/
But like I said, the link is now dead....memories (surfing text only on a VAX my first year or college).
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ClayPerrine
post Oct 18 2006, 10:04 AM
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From the Wayback machine...

The Renegade 914 Club


The events they held evolved into the current MUSR events. We still give out the Hildreth award every year.
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Sammy
post Oct 18 2006, 02:09 PM
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Yuppers, that be the one. renegade.

Memories, pressed between the pages of my mind
Memories, sweetened thru the ages just like wine

Quiet thought come floating down
And settle softly to the ground
Like golden autumn leaves around my feet
I touched them and they burst apart with sweet memories,
Sweet memories

Of holding hands and red bouquets
And twilight trimmed in purple haze
And laughing eyes and simple ways
And quiet nights and gentle days with you

Memories, pressed between the pages of my mind
Memories, sweetened thru the ages just like wine,
Memories, memories, sweet memories

Where's my white leather jumpsuit?
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