Not a subie but a type 4!!!!

"took my fastback to the dyno wednesday,its the first time i ever tried
something like that and it was fun and scary Shocked
At 6700rpm and 30 psi of boost it produced 547hp/610nm at the backwheels Very Happy
It didnt respond to the increase of boost the way liked it to,490hp/553nm at 23psi of boost so im gonna make some changes and try to go back
for another session in the next 2 weeks."


thread:http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=104744

some serious hp outta a weenie type4 motor that equals the subie power without all that water weight. That up there with a turbo 911!

Maybe Jake will hurry up and get the boost on!

Sweet....and it cost possibly less than getting a Suby to crank out the same numbers.......

So time between overhauls is what, two weeks or 50 miles which ever comes first?


You must have some killer connecting rods in that beast.

With all those Pauter parts? I doubt it. And certainly not if you put any value at all on all the hours that went into it.



That's funny. To quote Jake: "You can't turbo a type 4!" Of course that may change once he starts selling them...

I never said you can't turbo one... I simply said that there are areas that require more attention than a N/A engine... That is IF you intend for the engine to be a long liver, not a drag car....

I have tested 9 Turbo engines this year so far and have one more to finish before years end and its the only one that belongs to a customer of the bunch.

Expect my Turbo offerings to start showing up in 2008. Until that point its all testing and making rules based on broken parts. I'll be sharing thoughts and facts as I continue to prove them on the Turbo specific portion of my new forums opening up in November.

All the things from our Turbo specific rods right down to the twin plug and LE series heads have been leading up to the Turbo work.

Thus far I have killed 4 engines purposely- wait till I release the pics of the destruction.

My personal observation is that Jake says "you can't.." or "you shouldn't.." or "you really don't want to.." a little too often. Just my two cents.
Serious numbers though Geoff. What are the internal demensions of the engine: I.E: bore, stroke, valve size, rod length, heads, cams.... Whatever you're not affraid to give away. Keep on doin' what everyone tells you is a bad idea. That's how you change the limits and people's minds.
Mark D.

shoot its not my engine!

its in Sweden...

"Engine specs.
78mm Demello crank
Pauter stock length rods.
103,5 JE pistons and cast iron cylinders.
Web 277 with straight cut gears.
Type1 lifters.
Pauter super pro series heads.53/41,5 valves.
1,4:1 rockers
Big ass turbo(Holset hx 52)
Haltech F3 injection.
MSD dizzy and 7al2
Intercooler from a MD82 Shocked "

You most certainly did, Jake, back in the very early days of the STF, because the stud spacing was so much larger than a T1, too large to seal. Remember that people were five and six studding the heads back then. You've also said that fuel injection doesn't belong on a VW engine, that VW's should be kept simple. And remember that the DTM shrouds were only good for lower horsepower applications, that the Sharpebuilt 911 style shrouds were needed for 2270's and up? Joe even agreed with that, in the days before the dyno. Everybody learns, which is why you shouldn't be so absolute about things, your way or the highway. You learn too, and things change.

CAM GRIND IS WEB 277! Where is the secret???



Jake absolutely believes something until he himself proves it wrong....haha, I am that way sometimes...

Ooops , I mean, who the hell posted that camshaft comment anyways?

Turbo, it can't be done! Yes it can ;no it can't. Yes it can, no it can't. Yes it can, no it can't. No it can't, yes it can! IGNITION!! FIRE!!

In the beginning before Jake had a dyno a lot of his info came the hard way. With that sometimes you can't see the true details of the whats and whys. So until you have the ahrd numbers it is hard to change your opinion.

Once you sit down and actually scientifically crunch numbers and test data you might actually change your opinions. I would bet that is what has happened to Jake.

I know I have had opinions in the past that have proven to be a little off base. Experience brings wisdom.

NOw as far as this Type four engine goes, why is the power so low. I have talked to the owner of a 2.0l engine that made 625hp at the same boost levels. It used the same setup, Pauter heads with a draw through 650cfm HOlley.

Type four heads are way too weak to handle major boost levels. You will be doing valve adjust after every pull. The Pauter heads are the strongest offering, but they are not really street heads.

Yes I learn all the time. It may sometimes seem like my mind is closed on something because of the way I explain it or how firm my posts are. As I have further proven things I have had to eat my words quite a few times and I am sure I will have to again, this is because no two combos are the same and I want to continue pushing the envelope. I will always do my best to support my posts with the **CURRENT** results that support the topic at hand- thats all I can do.

I have turboed dozens of Type 4 engines, fact was until newer parts and thoughts existed as well as the ability to do better test work I NEVER had good luck with them and did not trust the end result enough to sell to others- thats the difference. Thats why the current Turbo I am building for a customer in Sweden has taken 18 months to create and I'm not done yet.

I still do not believe that I said a Type 4 could not be turboed, because I had done it before those days you state and have done it since then. What I constantly said was the fact that the Turbo work needed a different approach and that current facts did not exist that would support most builds...

As far as EFI goes:
Until a couple of years ago EFI was still very expensive and underdeveloped for our engines. I took 5 months early in 2005 to do comprehensive testing of 7 different systems on 3 different engines (while my engine shop was down waiting for Ceramic lifters) and found very big benefits to EFI that I had never experienced before- most of these I still have not shared.

Just about that time the price of EFI started dropping, more kits were being brought to the market and Weber carbs were not attainable for 6+ months.

The result of that is the fact that TWO Carbureted engines will leave my shop in 2006, all the rest are injected...

Between what Paul has stated here and what he has alluded to on the STF it's pretty plain to see that he has a problem with me that we should talk about via telephone- we have talked before, but not recently and I think it's time.

That's some serious power!!!

That would be reallt cool if you could get a completely reliable 400hp out of a type 4. Go hunt down those pesky lambos.

Jake, SDS prices haven't changed in years. And in a roundabout way you're confirming that you can't (or at least you yourself haven't yet been able to successfully) turbo a T4. I'm not going to go look it up, but you certainly made that statement years ago n STF and I remember it well precisely because it was so absolute. And as I thought at the time, foolish.

But as you say, you've had to change your opinion about a lot of things over the years. With that in mind my only point is that you could be far less absolute when telling people what they "can" or "can't" do. You know a lot, and I respect that, but when pressed you yourself will admit that you don't know everything. And when you tell people that something they intend to do will inevitably end in failure, without offering any suggestions as to how they could do it successfully, the only thing you've accomplished is to discourage them. You may not realize it, but a steady dose of that negativity will only get them out of the garage and back inside watching TV. People come to these forums for support, to share information, and to get help when they need it. So give them some of that positive support instead of discouragement.

This is meant to be an observation, not criticism (as we all know, you don't do criticism real well). I can understand not wanting to give the farm away, and no problem there, but you can't just tell somebody if he does it the way he's suggesting it's just going to blow up in a hundred miles. Then say that you know how to do it right but aren't going to explain. If you do that you've just wasted my time in reading the post and sent him back to watching his motorsports on TV. NASCAR, for God's sake. Not good. You could do better.

Paul

You might want to look at absolutes.

Dave

Absolutely! That's good advice for anyone.

IIRC, in the 90's the conventional wisdom was you can't turbo a 2.0L stock. Why? the head to cylinder seal is too small and you get head leaks quickly.

Sammy, Jeff (Jenny's brother) proved it can be done (yeah yeah, I even remember the Crown turbo kits of the 70's).

BenM, Ed proved a 1.7L can be turboed and last for a long time without head leaks.

In the mid 2000's now we have Nickasil cylinders which enable us to turbo more better than before. Heat mangement is here finally. Modern FI is here.

Brand new effen 2.0L heads are here with Jake and Len hard work.

Basically, we have modern new parts to start with on a turbo engine instead of tired retread parts so we are lightyears ahead of where we were in the 90's.

In the horizon are roller lifters, better rods etc which means even more better engines and higher revs so we can actually run higher boost without engine failures.

If you want to make real power with a T4 you can't do it with big turbo power. Most any engine in the world can handle 5-7psi all day long with proper tuning. But if you want real power you will be boosting over 15lbs. The stock T4 head casting is not strong enough to make real power. You can make just as much power NA on a T4 as you can with a turbo. Why bother.

Until there is a real head casting that has some strength real power will not be made with a turbo T4.

Not going to speak for Jake, but he could have been refering to the long standing joke on this list and other that "You can't turbo a 914" And he forgot the smiley.

think it's on pump gas?

Me neither

BJH

Turbo talk, thats crazy talk for them there dreamers.

Well, let's face it. None of us take criticism very well. We all think our opinion is the 'right' one. Sometime we (me included) just loose site of the fact that it's only an opinion. And YES, there IS such thing as an opinion in engineering. As much as engine building comes down to hard science and numbers, it's really a balance of a zillion different variables. Each variable has it's own up and down side. The opinion part comes in when each of us as individuals decide which ups and downs are most important for our particular application. That's why I think it's funny (irritating as hell) when people say I'm building MY car all wrong.... That was more like three cents.
Mark D.

Who cares, it's still neat

You are building your car wrong!!!! Its my way or the highway buddy!

That actually started in the STF whenever someone posted about turboing a T4, to give Jake a little poke about his statement (very strong opinion?) that "you can't turbo a T4". It's been a running joke ever since, there, here, elsewhere. You hear it frequently from the Europeans, who seem to have been turboing the heck out of them. Those long winters, I guess. And I imagine you'll hear it even more often once Jake starts selling them himself. Harmless humor.

It was flywheel HP. THis was done before the days of everyone having chassis dynos. This is true, it could be something silly. I can only go on the info provided.

Dave's engine used stock T4 heads for a long time. He did the 5-6 head studs, nothing would keep the heads from flexing during a run. He said he would have to adjust the valves after every run because the heads were moving around. When he switched to the Pauter heads he set teh valve adjust once a weekend and left it alone. Never had any other head problems.

Now this is a drag specific vehicle, not a street car so compromises where made for the application.

Who cares who said what in the past blahblahblah. That's some big power no matter what, cool for someone to build these engines. And cool for Jake to try and make a big power turbo setup that isn't just for a drag race. I'm sure 2007 will be an even more wild year than 2006 was for Type 4 engine development, and that's a very cool thing.

First time I saw the 'you can't turbo a 914' comment was the European Car magazine guys responding to a reader mail...go fig.

Through some intervention and some head mods I have pushed TIV engines to 20+ PSI boost this year already for as long as two full minutes on the dyno at WOT- no valves needed adjustment.

We have taken the Turbo development of these engines to an infinite level, thats why you haven't seen any posts or pics as of yet- it'll all come in due time with a ton of results that those in the right place, at the right time and a credit card number can gain access to :-)

Just wait till you see what Herbie Extreme II has under the deck...

He didn't say one can't make a T4 turbo, he just meant at HIS level of quality which includes longevity and reliability.

Anyone can get power out of anything. The question is for how long and for what purpose.

I guess that 150 to 175 hp my 2 liter turbo made at 7 to 8 psi was fake
All hp is real unless you are doing it with a K&N filter

I know I know, what you meant by real was high hp numbers.

I never really cared about those "real" hp engines. There will always be someone out there with more power, more money, etc.

I like bolting a turbo onto a stock engine, dialing in 6 or 7 psi boost, doing a little tuning and increase the power output reliably by at least 50% for very little money. For me that's fun.
I did it with my 914, a 67 bug, and my 911 SC. Getting to be a habit.

I don't know when the phrase "you can't turbo a 914" was first said, but the first time I read it was about 7 years ago on some long gone 914 board, written by our own Damp Dave and i haven't missed a chance to remind him of that since, but in a respectful way.
What was the name of that 914 board, anyone remember? I know I found it before pelican, and I know it went away not long after that. I wish I had more details but I've got CRS.

150 HP from a stock 80K mile 2.0 was easy... All I found that needed to be changed was the springs and retainers..

After 8PSI things change, 10 PSI needs water injection, but is still safe for short periods of time... After 10 PSI the top ring lands really hate life.

Jake, I couldn't agree more. I didn't have much scientific data to back me up but that's the same conclusion I came up with. that's why I stopped at 7 psi. I wouldn't say it was easy for me, it took quite a bit on homework on my part before i really felt like understood what I was doing.

I wanted reliability as well as power and I really liked the fact that I had a decent 914 that was fast and only had about $3000 total invested in it.

Making reliable power cheaply was prolly the biggest challenge and also the most rewarding thing for me. It was almost a contest, how much power can I get for $250 worth of junk yard bolt-on and welded-up parts?

It has been fun for me and will be more fun with the new dyno..

I haven't gotten as far with it as I wanted in 2006, it'll take the better part of 07 for me to finish my scattering experiences..

BTW- The new dyno cell has a bank teller window and scatter proof walls to keep us safe! Its a killer set up!

The one I was on before Pelican and here was the Renegade 914 site, long gone though the site address was:
http://www.dgi.net/914/
But like I said, the link is now dead....memories (surfing text only on a VAX my first year or college).

From the Wayback machine...

The Renegade 914 Club


The events they held evolved into the current MUSR events. We still give out the Hildreth award every year.

Yuppers, that be the one. renegade.

Memories, pressed between the pages of my mind
Memories, sweetened thru the ages just like wine

Quiet thought come floating down
And settle softly to the ground
Like golden autumn leaves around my feet
I touched them and they burst apart with sweet memories,
Sweet memories

Of holding hands and red bouquets
And twilight trimmed in purple haze
And laughing eyes and simple ways
And quiet nights and gentle days with you

Memories, pressed between the pages of my mind
Memories, sweetened thru the ages just like wine,
Memories, memories, sweet memories

Where's my white leather jumpsuit?